Raids / Characters / Instances


Pathfinder Online

Goblin Squad Member

Sup guys - I have only made a few posts and I will confess that I have not used the search button as much as I probably should have but I wanted to toss out what I am looking for in a new MMO to see what you all think and what the general theme of this community is. Also I will admit I am not a fan of the layout of this site as far as a forum goes so there is that as well :). I did back this project on kick starter so I have some skin in this game and this is by no means a troll of any sort.

First a little background.
I have been active in PnP games from AD&D 1st to 3.5 to 4 (bad idea) across to Pathfinder. Messed around with CoC, Car Wars, Top Secret, Boot Hill, Twilight 2000, Shadowrun and even Traveller. I would put my rp gaming at about 3 decades give or take. Spent a TON of time in EQ1, EQ2, Vanguard, Shadowrun etc etc... With EQ1 pre Kunark by far being above and beyond the best MMO to date IMO.

Raids: Really hoping they bring back the large group format encounters. Current games seem to alienate large guilds by forcing them into making hard decisions on raid groups as the size is limited to a small number of people so there is no room for those nice to have classes etc. I am not looking to remove any content from solo or single group play but IMO if a game wants to last and stick around this is a serious point that needs to be addressed. I do understand that most if not all people sit at a table with 4-8 players when they are playing Pathfinder in RL but some concession should be made for this I would think.

Characters: I was messing around with a new game coming out from an IP that is very similar to Pathfinder and was seriously disappointed in how they are handling the classes. PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD give us the ability to roll how we want and be viable. If say.. I want to make a ranger and focus on two handed sword - there is no reason what so ever I should not be able to do that. I don't think forcing players right into arch-types / prestige class or whatever (great sword fighter) is a good way to garner character investment. I understand that game balance could be a bit easier if it is done that way but that would be a mistake IMO.

Instances: No - no place for this in a modern MMO - IMO if you want to play something like that go play Neverwinter or another multi player hosted game. This is an MMO - you want people to interact, compete, make new friends, meet new people to despise etc etc. Sanctioning off content so people can stay in their own little bubble will not help this game stick around. There is a large portion of players that like to compete with one another over content and this ruins that aspect of the game sandbox or not. There is a place for instances I suppose but please don't make that the norm and do NOT do that with guild/player houses.

Finally I wanted to cover my thoughts on risk vs reward. Let me start by saying that I was a big fan of leaving a corpse behind when you get smoked in EQ and I was a big fan of some classes helping you recover that like Necros could do with summon corpse, which in turn forced some to reach out and be a good member of the community and maybe step outside of their group of friends and meet new people. Also promoting class need. I really think that when you die the penalty should be severe. Just taking a armor hit on durability and costing some cash is not enough. Real penalty causes fear which causes excitement and MMO's today do not have that. At some point - and I would guess it was WoW (sorry if you are a fan this isn't a bash)developers got it into their heads that what is easy for the players and what the players THINK they want is the right choice. Things that are easy are never appreciated nor held onto for very long and I think there has been a constant stream of MMOs after to prove this. Another good example would be DayZ. I know this is an FPS and vastly different from an MMO but the fact that a dev made MOD got over a million people to download a game that flat out scared the shit out of people which in turn is keeping those same players and morphing into its own game is a tribute to what is fun(rewarding) when you play and what is fun on paper(board room).

Ok that is all I have right now. Sorry for the big wall of text and I look forward to being more active here.

Erik

Goblin Squad Member

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Hmmm. A lot of the things you are talking about are either PvE or themepark in nature.

1. There will be no raids. Unless by raid you mean a raid on enemy holdings in open PvP.

2. We will be having a classless system. Build your char however you like.

3. Most of the world will be open. The lone exceptions are dungeons which are fairly limited (especially at launch)PvE experiences. In the more distant future they eventually want to do user generated content. But still instanced, and not a typical themepark raid.

4. Risk vs Reward will mostly be tied to PvP encounters, even for crafters. But hey there are corpse runs.... if ya make it in time.

Goblin Squad Member

Yeah I puked out a lot of topics in that one post :) Sorry about that.

So Pathfinder/Roleplaying games are pretty much PVE in nature as is - is this MMO going the Shadowbane/Darkfall route to focus on PVP? I spend almost as much time PVP as I do PVE if the system is good.

By raids I mean a large force of players taking out a Tarrasque that recently woke up - or an Ancient Red Dragon that is causing problems or any number of demi-gods etc that could need a force of people to bring down. I hope this aspect gets a second look as this will really remove a large number of players. But again this should take nothing away from the rest of the player base if you remove entitlement issues some players have with gear etc.

Fantastic on the Class system!

Going to need some more info on 4

Goblinworks Executive Founder

The best source for information at this point is the Goblinworks developer blog.

Goblin Squad Member

It is worth pointing out that party size, may be much larger, and battles etc... also much larger... wars could wind up hundreds vs hundreds, as well when it comes to certain situations, escalations, wandering monsters etc... there would be no limit to the quantity of participants. Instances themselves are not the be all end all of group activity as they are in the typical theme park MMORPG.

Goblin Squad Member

Note that EVE has some impressively huge fleet battles. I don't expect the same size battles in PFO because of the more intimate nature of people on a battlefield and range limitations, but don't expect strictly sized 10 or 25 (or even 40) person raid setups.

Goblin Squad Member

Hi Erik!

Nihimon has provided a great source of useful links: Recruitment & Helpful Links

You should be able to find all the blog posts at Goblin Works listed/linked there too.

1) Raids: This is usually the themepark endgame different game approach. PFO as a sandbox you're well aware of, will have dungeon crawling in the form of exploring hexes and finding random, variable dungeon instances to explore and possibly loot. However other parties of adventureres can also find these atst. So there's the equivalent. The difference is this is not at the end of the game gated content, it's part of the pve economy of the game I believe for adventurers to find useful resources for eg crafters and so on.

2)Skill-Based game so there's no restrictions on how you skill train! You can follow a character path archetype eg Ranger but choose any other skills from other paths. More detail at the blogs.

3) Instances: As above there are some random dungeons that can be found. However there's also the eventual aim for armies of players, too. We might get more detail on how the hexes are designed not too far off.

4) Risk v Reward is integral to eg travel in PFO. Major part of the economy.

Goblin Squad Member

Thanks for the great responses guys - really appreciate it.

Will dig through these links tonight!

Yea I get the sandbox/themepark differences but for me I dont see random giant overland mobs outside the realm of a sandbox. Not really concerned with a ton of scripted progression encounters but it would be nice to see some big baddies move in and out of the area from patch to patch. Like I posted before - world event when a Tarrasque awakens and starts crushing folks etc... I think you can still keep it sandbox and have events like this.

Thanks again for the help, responses and opinons.

Scarab Sages Goblin Squad Member

Sabatour wrote:

Not really concerned with a ton of scripted progression encounters but it would be nice to see some big baddies move in and out of the area from patch to patch.

May I suggest reading the blog entry Over the Hill and Far Away? Specifically the entry on Monster Hexes and Escalation Cycles.

Monster Hexes and Escalation Cycles wrote:

Escalation Cycles are events where monsters take up residence in a monster hex, and then begin spreading over time to other hexes if the monsters are not dealt with. Escalation cycles can start naturally in unoccupied monster hexes, or they can be started by players by collecting certain items and placing them in a monster hex, effectively luring the monsters to the hex. Completion of escalation cycles requires progressing through several stages, each having different quests that can be completed to advance the stage, and awarding an artifact at the end of the escalation cycle. Most escalation cycles are ended by destroying the monster base in the monster hex, though some can be completed by helping the monster force if the aiding settlement is of appropriate alignment and alliance, such as a Lawful Evil settlement aiding an invading force of Hellknights. Further details of escalation cycles will be provided in future blog posts on the subject.

Once an escalation gets into full swing, it will require A LOT of work to clear it out.

Goblin Squad Member

Greedalox wrote:
1. There will be no raids. Unless by raid you mean a raid on enemy holdings in open PvP.

I don't think I'd be bold enough to say there won't be ANY raids.

If dungeons exist in Pathfinder Online (and I'd be surprised if there weren't), it's actually a pretty smart idea to take a very large number of people, a "raid", to delve into it and have the best chance of killing whatever's inside for whatever reason. There's also really nothing stopping you from doing the same thing with gathering enemies (or whatever they called monsters moving into an area) in those designated hexes. If you want to protect your hex from goblin incursions, you better believe people are gonna form a "raid" and attack those goblin settlements before they get too big.

Goblin Squad Member

Sabatour wrote:

Thanks for the great responses guys - really appreciate it.

Will dig through these links tonight!

Yea I get the sandbox/themepark differences but for me I dont see random giant overland mobs outside the realm of a sandbox. Not really concerned with a ton of scripted progression encounters but it would be nice to see some big baddies move in and out of the area from patch to patch. Like I posted before - world event when a Tarrasque awakens and starts crushing folks etc... I think you can still keep it sandbox and have events like this.

Thanks again for the help, responses and opinons.

Initially it's going to be early enrollment release at a very lean state. But over time things like Escalation Cycles and possibly a few dev-driven world event type plots might feed in more strongly (eg waken a dragon) on the PvE side. We have not had a blog on the bestiary yet, so I guess that will come sometime after the Hex milestone update the devs are currently working on. When more of the pve combat and mob ai stuff and basic mob distribution and spawning and economy value are all worked (and not forgetting the art and animation and lore!)...

I assume the PARTY unit will be standard dungeoneering size as per the blog:

Quote:

A Fighter, a Wizard, a Rogue and a Cleric Walk into a Bar...

The fundamental social unit that most players will experience is the party. This is a classic adventuring team that self-assembles to go out and kick down doors, whack monsters, and power up. But the party has other functions in Pathfinder Online. Parties may form to go harvest resources: some members will extract the resource while others patrol and fight off hazards that appear (see our previous blog for more info on how this system works). Parties could also be a caravan, with some members moving large quantities of goods from place to place, and some acting as guards to protect the group from hazards and brigands.

Parties will typically be small, just a few characters. We haven't picked an upper limit, but expect it to be only a couple of dozen characters at most.

There will be many ways to find a party to join, and lots of ways for parties to find new members. We want to make it really easy for people to group into ad hoc parties that may only last for a few hours while the group completes an objective. The people you meet during these adventures could become friends (or enemies) as you move deeper into the social networks of the game. You'll be able to track those you've been in a party with and see what happened during those adventures, and you'll even be able to note if those individuals were friends, enemies, or neutral for later encounters.

I think this size seems manageable and either independent or part of a chartered company or settlement.

Goblin Squad Member

AvenaOats wrote:
I assume the PARTY unit will be standard dungeoneering size as per the blog:

I actually think there's a decent chance the max Party size will be the same as the max Chartered Company size, and I hope this is the case. I also think it's somewhat telling that the current scale for the max CC size is close to what most games use for Raids.

That's not to say I'd be shocked if the max Party size were 5 or 6.

[Edit] Just noticed this, from your quote:

Quote:
Parties will typically be small, just a few characters. We haven't picked an upper limit, but expect it to be only a couple of dozen characters at most.

Goblin Squad Member

@ Harrison

I might have spelled it out too specifically without reference. When I say there will be no raids I specifically meant there would be no WoW type themepark raids and just that. Even if you can take 40 people into a dungeon that doesnt make a raid by most MMOers standards. That just makes it a 40 man encounter. You need only go to places like Mmorpg.com and Massively.com to see the zealotry of what does and does not make a raid to the WoW kiddies. :)

Goblin Squad Member

Greedalox wrote:
Even if you can take 40 people into a dungeon that doesnt make a raid by most MMOers standards.

I'm not so sure about that. I think most raiders would consider the defining characteristics of a raid to be: 1) the number of people who must work cooperatively in order to succeed; and 2) the fact that the target is a very powerful NPC (or perhaps a small group of very powerful NPCs). I believe both of those criteria will be met by raids in PFO.

The only thing I think is likely to be different about "raids" in PFO is that you won't be raiding the exact same boss(es) over and over again, like you do in Theme Parks.

Goblin Squad Member

Thats pretty much my point though. Im not disagreeing with what makes a Raid. Im saying there are 9 million people that play WoW and theyd disagree with you. The things missing in their minds would be scripted encounters with the same boss over and over. Sandbox is not nearly as popular as themepark, thats why I say majority. But again this doesnt make them right.

Goblin Squad Member

There seems to be a potential for invasions of some sort. I had the impression these would be rather more than untended escalation spillage since they wished for a cadre of monster roleplayers.

Goblin Squad Member

Greedalox wrote:
Thats pretty much my point though. Im not disagreeing with what makes a Raid. Im saying there are 9 million people that play WoW and theyd disagree with you.

Yeah, they're wrong :)

But even with that, I don't think we can really rule out the possibility of scripted encounters, and recurring bosses (even if they have different names).

Goblin Squad Member

LOL. Dont you know it brother. I dont know how many Mmo forums or themepark games you guys have played. But you'd be shocked at how many closed minded people I have encountered that either think the WOW way was the only way or didnt even realize WOW wasnt the only game in the genre.

And yea I suppose you could be right about not ruling it out. That being said I dont plan to see anything too elaborate especially at first. And I think the majority of really complex and epic PvE content will come from UGC, which is quite a ways off.

Goblin Squad Member

@Greedalox and @Nihimon IMO all its going to take is a game to come out with some guts like Day Z did with a real challenge to kick wow in the balls. I think a lot of those folks are not walking from that game cause time spent and nothing new coming out. Who wants to start over with some clone. But another big group want that type of experience I suppose as well.

Escalation Cycles sound amazing. Digging PFO the more I read.


Nihimon wrote:


But even with that, I don't think we can really rule out the possibility of scripted encounters, and recurring bosses (even if they have different names).

Ah man I hope not. What sorts of things were you thinking might be repeated? Like escalation bosses? I "hope" that with the huge variety of possible creatures and NPCs to choose from that dungeon bosses wouldn't be encountered more then once in a looooong time. I'm curious as to what repetitive content your seeing.

Goblin Squad Member

Think he was talking about the field dungeons you encounter. I think they are supposed to be instanced and randomized. Also the devs did talk about DLC in the form of dev created "campaigns" I dont know if we could count those as raids, but if you pay for it I dont see why you couldnt repeat it whenever you wanted. Who knows for sure?

Goblin Squad Member

@Valandur, there will be PvE content. It's possible they'll go with random abilities, but I think there's a chance they'll use scripted encounters to provide some raid-type content.

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