Bear Traps

[Treesmasha Toothpickmaker]

Under the Traps, Hazard, & Special Terrains section of the SRD:
a bear trap has a DC20 perception check to see it and might cost as much as 1000gp for 12 traps. Further, one of the options to escape the trap is a successful DC26 strength check.

In the Advanced Players Guide:
Its a DC15 perception check to see it. Its a DC20 strength check to open the jaws or pull the anchoring spike from the ground. Is this just in reference to setting and/or moving it? As it further says, that to escape the trap is a DC26 strength check. Also, it specifically costs a mere 2gp.

The Adventurer's Armory says:
DC15 perception so see it and Prying open the jaws or pulling the spike from the ground requires a DC 26 Strength check.

Which of the three is correct/current?

Further, as 3 of the 4 "standard" bears withing Pathfinder are large creatures, is is safe to assume that a bear trap will work equally well on an ogre as "bear traps work as well for trapping humanoids or monsters."

And finally, if I wanted to secure the trap to a tree instead of spiking it to the ground, would you consider the chain that is part of the trap (for spiking it to the ground) is of sufficient length to wrap around a typical tree?

[Treesmasha Toothpickmaker]

Shameless bump. I could use some help. Where are you Grick, BlackBloodTroll, Jiggy?

[DragonBringerX]

Well, considering the one listed in the Advanced Players Guide is the one written most recently, I would go with that one. I also have a Huge problem with the trap prices in the core rulebook. They have a 10 foot hole costing 500 gp...seriously. A hole is the price of a shovel and a couple of hours of work.

As for your other question, yes. A bear trap would work on any large creature equally well. I would go so far as to say it will still hurt Huge and larger creatures too, it just doesn't trap them like it does smaller creatures. My reasoning for this, does a mouse trap not hurt a human if we stick a foot in there? We're just not held in place.

[Thanis Kartaleon]

I don't see reference on the PRD to bear traps costing 1000 gp per 12.

The Adventurer's Armory lists the same information as the Advanced Player's Guide, and the PRD.

Could you provide a link to the different information?

Bear traps work on any corporeal creature. It's a pressure plate connected to a pair of metal jaws. Common sense says that Fine, Diminutive, and perhaps Tiny creatures would not have enough mass to trigger the plate or be caught in the jaws while on the plate.

As the length of the chain is not specified, your last question would definitely be up to GM interpretation. Considering that 10 ft. of chain is 30 gp, and the trap is only 2 gp, I would say that you would need to purchase the extra chain in order to wrap it around a tree.

[DragonBringerX]

Thanis Kartaleon wrote:

I don't see reference on the PRD to bear traps costing 1000 gp per 12.

The Adventurer's Armory lists the same information as the Advanced Player's Guide, and the PRD.

Could you provide a link to the different information?

Bear traps work on any corporeal creature. It's a pressure plate connected to a pair of metal jaws. Common sense says that Fine, Diminutive, and perhaps Tiny creatures would not have enough mass to trigger the plate or be caught in the jaws while on the plate.

As the length of the chain is not specified, your last question would definitely be up to GM interpretation. Considering that 10 ft. of chain is 30 gp, and the trap is only 2 gp, I would say that you would need to purchase the extra chain in order to wrap it around a tree.

Good catch. I usually have an eye for details like that, but even I missed that one.

@OP: Yeah, I agree with Thanis here. The cost of the bear trap obviously only has (probably a foot of chain). You would need to buy the rest to wrap around a tree sufficiently.

[Treesmasha Toothpickmaker]

With the regards to the SRD, in the Traps, Hazard, & Special Terrains section it cost out traps as a 1000gp per CR. It lists 12 bear traps as CR1.

From the Adventurer's Armory:

Quote:

Bear Trap: Although intended for trapping large animals, bear traps work as well for trapping humanoids or monsters. The hinged jaws of the trap are attached to a chain, which in turn is secured to a spike driven into the ground to ensure that the victim cannot simply crawl away. Prying open the jaws or pulling the spike from the ground requires a DC 26 Strength check.

Bear Trap CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +10 melee (2d6+3); sharp jaws spring shut around the creature’s ankle and halve the creature’s base speed (or hold the creature immobile if the trap is attached to a solid object); the creature can escape with a DC 20 Disable Device check, DC 22 Escape Artist check, or DC 26 Strength check

From the Advanced Player's Guide:

Quote:

Bear Trap: Although intended for trapping large animals, bear traps work as well for trapping humanoids or monsters. The hinged jaws of the trap are attached to a chain, which in turn is secured to a spike driven into the ground to ensure that the victim cannot simply crawl away. Prying open the jaws or pulling the spike from the ground requires a DC 20 Strength check.

Bear Trap CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +10 melee (2d6+3); sharp jaws spring shut around the creature’s ankle and halve the creature’s base speed (or hold the creature immobile if the trap is attached to a solid object); the creature can escape with a DC 20 Disable Device check, DC 22 Escape Artist check, or DC 26 Strength check

Bold sections added by me as directly pertinent to the discussion.

I am of the opinion that "Prying open the jaws or pulling the spike from the ground requires a DC 20 Strength check." from the APG is in error.

[n00bxqb]

They have Bear Traps in Ultimate Equipment, which is the newest I'm aware of.

Quote:

BEAR TRAP

PRICE 2 GP
WEIGHT 10 lbs.
Although intended for trapping large animals, bear traps work
as well for trapping humanoids or monsters. The hinged jaws
of the trap are attached to a chain, which in turn is secured
to a spike driven into the ground to ensure that the victim
cannot simply crawl away. Prying open the jaws or pulling
the spike from the ground requires a DC 20 Strength check.
CR 1
Type mechanical; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 20
EFFECTS
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +10 melee (2d6+3); sharp jaws spring shut around
the creature’s ankle and halve the creature’s base speed (or
hold the creature immobile if the trap is attached to a solid
object); the creature can escape with a DC 20 Disable Device
check, DC 22 Escape Artist check, or DC 26 Strength check.

[Treesmasha Toothpickmaker]

The listing in UE would be the same as the APG, and still has the anomaly of a DC20 to open jaws/pull spike in the fluff description and a DC26 in the mechanical description.

And thank you for finding it as well.

[n00bxqb]

Treesmasha Toothpickmaker wrote:

The listing in UE would be the same as the APG, and still has the anomaly of a DC20 to open jaws/pull spike in the fluff description and a DC26 in the mechanical description.

And thank you for finding it as well.

Yeah, it's weird. At least UE gives a 2GP price, though.

Personally, I've just gone with the DC 26 Strength check.

Just to throw more confusion in, here's the listing in Kingmaker:

Quote:

Bear Trap CR 1

XP 400
Type mechanical; Perception DC 15; Disable Device DC 20
Effects
Trigger location; Reset manual
Effect Atk +10 melee (2d6+3); sharp jaws spring shut around the
victim’s ankle and halves the creature’s base speed (or holds
the victim immobile if the trap is attached to a solid object);
the trap can be escaped with a DC 20 Disable Device check,
DC 22 Escape Artist check, or a DC 24 Strength check.

[Amorgan]

A typical black bear has a strength of 17 (which is a +3 ability modifier). So a black bear caught in a trap that requires only a DC 20 strength check to break is always going to escape in about 2 minutes (i.e., the length of time required for the bear to effectively take 20 on the strength check). The black bear would be caught by the DC 24 and DC 26 strength check traps.

A typical brown bear (i.e., a grizzly) has a strength of 21; so it could escape a trap that requires a DC 24 or less in about 2 minutes, but would be caught by the DC 36 strength check trap.

A typical polar bear has a strength of 25; so it could escape even the DC 26 trap in about 2 minutes. Polar bear hunters would need to use traps rated to at least DC 28.

In light of that, I'm using the DC 26 strength check for bear traps in any campaign that I run. If its a locale with polar bears (or dire/cave bears), I'll increase the DC and the cost.

[L'historien]

I am just building a character that will use bear traps and I have a similar concern.
This character is a human rogue with a skill focus on disable devices.
I thought it made sense to use the "reset a trap" dc of the disable devices skill to set up the bear trap. The thing is.. this dc of 20, makes it really hard for my character to set it up.
But it makes a lot more sense than prying open the jaws.. to set up a bear trap.
We all know that setting up a bear trap is not done through brute force.
The thing is.. if I fail by 5 or more, it snaps in my face.

That makes the setup of the bear trap, too hard to accomplish for a low level character in my opinion.

If we were to look at a level 1 PFS Merisiel (lets add masterwork thieves tools to make her life easier) and her trapfinding bonuus of +1... she would have a +10 (+7+mwk tools+trapfinding)

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/npcCodex/iconic/merisiel.html

Basically, if she rolls a 5(+10) she gets 15, which is failing by 5 or more the disable devices (reset a trap) DC of 20.
So, she has 5 chances out of 20, 25% chances of being hit with a +10 attack doing 2d6+3. Ouch!

So.. That seems broken.
On the other hand.. doing a strength check of 20.. to set it up.. is so unlikely.. is this really the intent, or there is a mistake?
Again, bear traps are not set up by prying open the jaws...

[galahad2112]

Well, Merisiel could just take 10...

[L'historien]

I would likely ask my GM to consider the disable DC of this trap to be a "tricky device" DC of 15 to set up (as per the table).

With a lv 1 Merisiel with Mwk Thieves tool (+10), even on rolling a 1 (+10 for 11) she could not fail by 5 or more and accidentally trigger the bear trap.

Although, I think that the GM could spice things up a little on a natural 1 even though, technically there are no automatic failures on skills.

Otherwise.. Merisiel would have 25% chance of accidentally triggering the bear trap.. Come on... If an exceptionally dextrous elven rogue with trap training has 1 chance out of 4 to risk death when setting up a bear trap, we have a problem.

[L'historien]

Taking 10, implies there are no risks.
This case really requires a roll.

[L'historien]

Could the following questions be clarified in an official ruling?
I would like to have this ability to use this equipment in PFS without too much table variance.

1. What is the strength check required to escape from the bear trap?
(ultimate equipment dc26 right?)

2. Can this be set up by prying open the jaws with strength DC20?
(if so, can it snap in your face if you fail by 5 or more)

3. What is the disable device DC required to set it up?
('reset a trap' dc20 seems too hard, but it's not my call)

Thank you!

p.s. I believe it would be unbalanced, if "prying open the jaws" (str dc20) had no risk, as opposed to "resetting the trap" (disable device dc20?)

[Ansel Krulwich]

Pyramid Explorer wrote:

Taking 10, implies there are no risks.

This case really requires a roll.

No, risk of failure doesn't means you cannot take 10. You may take 10 on a Disable Device check out of combat.

You cannot take 20 on the check as there is a penalty for failure, however.

[L'historien]

"Taking 10: When your character is not in immediate danger or distracted, you may choose to take 10. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, calculate your result as if you had rolled a 10. For many routine tasks, taking 10 makes them automatically successful. Distractions or threats (such as combat) make it impossible for a character to take 10. In most cases, taking 10 is purely a safety measure—you know (or expect) that an average roll will succeed but fear that a poor roll might fail, so you elect to settle for the average roll (a 10). Taking 10 is especially useful in situations where a particularly high roll wouldn't help."

I would like to accept your interpretation Ansel, but I think the threat of getting hit with a +10 (2d6+3) is significant enough to prevent a take 10.

Taking 10 on the setup of a trap would be Skill Mastery in my opinion.

"Skill Mastery: The rogue becomes so confident in the use of certain skills that she can use them reliably even under adverse conditions.

Upon gaining this ability, she selects a number of skills equal to 3 + her Intelligence modifier. When making a skill check with one of these skills, she may take 10 even if stress and distractions would normally prevent her from doing so. A rogue may gain this special ability multiple times, selecting additional skills for skill mastery to apply to each time."

But we are drifting.. let me reiterate my request for a ruling on the 3 above questions. If possible.
Thank you!

[galahad2112]

@ Pyramid Explorer

So, how do you handle taking 10 on Climb and Swim checks? Any climbing of 30 ft. or more carries a similar (or higher) risk, and ANY swim check carries the threat of DEATH. This is exactly the situation for which "take 10" is intended. The "significant threat" that you talk about is in the "take 20" rules directly underneath, and is covered by the line about "when... the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure..."

[L'historien]

The words "immediate danger" and "threat" from the take 10 rule are vague enough for us to divert from the bear trap questions I have regarding disable dc to set up, str dc required to evade, and the possibility of setting it up through strength alone (with or without a chance of it springing in the user's face).

You may be right on whether or not a take 10 is possible to set up a trap outside of combat. I understand your points.
I believe this should be the subject of another thread and encourages you to open it up if you wish to discuss this matter further.
I will gladly participate.

Thank you.

[Matthew Morris]

I'm just wondering about the DC 15. I mean if someone sees you set it up, do you really need a perception check to see it?

Just wonder, since we've a PFS PC who sets them up in combat.