Has WoTC released any new D&D product? I know about the reprints, but beside that?
Nope. WotC releases are basically zero in the RPG game material arena except for reprints and the online materials.
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Before anyone really says that Star Wars has become more popular than D&D in regards to RPGs, please do keep in mind that ICv2 does not measure the areas where WotC has primarily focused it's efforts since 4e began. That it's even still on the top five list at all means that it's absolutely crushing all competitors, with the possible exception of Paizo.
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Before anyone really says that Star Wars has become more popular than D&D in regards to RPGs, please do keep in mind that ICv2 does not measure the areas where WotC has primarily focused it's efforts since 4e began. That it's even still on the top five list at all means that it's absolutely crushing all competitors, with the possible exception of Paizo.
The chart doesn't measure "RPG popularity". It measures rough sales through LGS and other vendors.
We all know that in RPG popularity, F.A.T.A.L. is first with Dogs in the Vineyard close behind.
Fall? They do not devides the years in quarters anymore? Or is Fall the new Q4?
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Before anyone really says that Star Wars has become more popular than D&D in regards to RPGs, please do keep in mind that ICv2 does not measure the areas where WotC has primarily focused it's efforts since 4e began. That it's even still on the top five list at all means that it's absolutely crushing all competitors, with the possible exception of Paizo.
What does this mean?
What isn't icv2 measuring?
What is WotC doing that isn't being measured?
I'm intrigued.
Before anyone really says that Star Wars has become more popular than D&D in regards to RPGs, please do keep in mind that ICv2 does not measure the areas where WotC has primarily focused it's efforts since 4e began. That it's even still on the top five list at all means that it's absolutely crushing all competitors, with the possible exception of Paizo.What does this mean?
What isn't icv2 measuring?
What is WotC doing that isn't being measured?
I'm intrigued.
ICv2 only measures sales in brick&mortar shops, not online sales. Since 4e, WoTC has focused on selling through its own website and on subscription tools like the character builder.
I'm amazed that a Star Wars RPG still has the popularity after all the different versions of the RPG over the years.
It will be interesting to see what impact the new movies have on the popularity of the RPG.
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Of course, Paizo also sells a huge anount of Pathfinder through thier own online store and via direct subscriptions, so this aspect is a wash.
I'd say these results are a pretty good indication of sales ranking.
The difference is that Pathfinder is still primarily a game that is played via hard copy books.
4E really stopped being that quite a while ago.
Wal-Mart sells more hard-copy books than the iTunes bookstore. But I seriously doubt that Wal-Mart is overall a more popular source of books than iTunes is, when you factor in ALL ways that books can be purchased.
ICv2's methods would have Wal-Mart ranked higher. Actually, iTunes wouldn't rank at all, since they don't sell ANY hard-copy books.
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Of course, Paizo also sells a huge anount of Pathfinder through thier own online store and via direct subscriptions, so this aspect is a wash.
I'd say these results are a pretty good indication of sales ranking.
The difference is that Pathfinder is still primarily a game that is played via hard copy books.
4E really stopped being that quite a while ago.
Wal-Mart sells more hard-copy books than the iTunes bookstore. But I seriously doubt that Wal-Mart is overall a more popular source of books than iTunes is, when you factor in ALL ways that books can be purchased.
ICv2's methods would have Wal-Mart ranked higher. Actually, iTunes wouldn't rank at all, since they don't sell ANY hard-copy books.
So, would you postualte that Pathfinder is selling less books online than WotC?
Recognising that digital and hard-copy is not the same as online sales vs. offline sales.
I don't really know. But my point is that ICv2 is just as ignorant on the subject as I am. Yet every quarter, people on this website use their rankings to cheer about how Pathfinder is the most popular-est RPG EVUR!!!
Even with the so-called shift to the 4e digital initiative and Paizo's subscriptions, there have been a number of post from Paizo people underlining how important the hobby-specialty distribution segment still is. Pathfinder leading there, or effectively in a tie there with 4e as it was when Essentials first came out, is a big deal.
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Well, Paizo being at the top is not a surprise. They dominated the chart the last two years and were leading sales even when WotC was producing new games.
The big surprise is Star Wars, which in the fall of 2012 only had the Beta test of their game and was competing with a system neutral drow book from WotC and didn't even get it's Beginner Box out until December.
FFG is doing well for itself.
If this was for winter 2013 I'd be less impressed, but fall is twist.
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So, would you postualte that Pathfinder is selling less books online than WotC?I don't really know. But my point is that ICv2 is just as ignorant on the subject as I am. Yet every quarter, people on this website use their rankings to cheer about how Pathfinder is the most popular-est RPG EVUR!!!
That is interesting, I'm not sure how you could track online RPG sales.
Presumably precise figures are available at paizo, rpgnow, nobleknight etc. It would be a problem of getting access to the figures and having the time to prcoess them.
I thought WotC were anti-pdf, what is the digital product they're making money from?
I wonder, has anyone got an idea of which websites have the biggest rpg book traffic?
Obviously amazon will be high, maybe other general sites like the book depository. Does WotC have its own storefront like Paizo?
That is interesting, I'm not sure how you could track online RPG sales.
Presumably precise figures are available at paizo, rpgnow, nobleknight etc. It would be a problem of getting access to the figures and having the time to prcoess them.
I thought WotC were anti-pdf, what is the digital product they're making money from?
I wonder, has anyone got an idea of which websites have the biggest rpg book traffic?
Obviously amazon will be high, maybe other general sites like the book depository. Does WotC have its own storefront like Paizo?
WotC doesnt have a storefront they distribute through the hobby channel distributors and through the book distributors. The digital product they offer is via the DDI subscription and more recently via dndclassics.com.
The 'anti PDF' thing is an odd view that's developed amongst people who arent 4E fans. Obviously they pulled the plug on the PDF sales of books several years ago (a position since reversed, albeit gradually). It was pretty widely assumed to be an anti-piracy stance, although I havent seen any statement from WotC confirming that was the motivation. Nonetheless, they've been offering PDF downloads since 4E's inception. As a subscriber, you can download the entire Dungeon/Dragon collection since they went digital. It seems obvious to me that their view was not 'anti PDF' so much as 'anti things which compete with sales of our books'. The fact they've reversed that decision seems an equally obvious concession that they were wrong to do so, although I will be interested to see whether D&D:Next will be provided as the ubiquitous Print/PDF bundles.
In my opinion, their strategy in 4E was to have a dual product approach - the books and the PDFs were entirely different product lines (the rules available via hardcopy, the adventures and source material predominantly available via PDF). I dont think it worked very well, although the strategy's success is pretty clearly tied to the success of the 4E game itself (which was also not what they were hoping for).
It makes comparisons across companies somewhat difficult - the big avenues ignored by ICv2 are the direct sales via paizo's websites and via the book trade (ie Barnes and Noble and so forth) which I heard from an unreliable source was a major source of WotC sales. The fact the survey is so piecemeal and arbitrary doesnt help (sometimes minis and flipmats get included, for example. I believe Vic mentioned some cases of people selling Gamemastery products and counting it as "D&D sales").
I think the biggest sign that Pathfinder was outselling D&D came from the various distributors. They dont have massive margins so they need to know that stuff. Obviously, we cant get direct access to those numbers, but Lisa confirmed that PF has been outselling 4E for a while in the monthly blogs she was writing last year. I cant see that changing since then (although who knows what will happen once D&D:Next comes around)...
A little off topic, I know. But I got into a mood..
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Thanks Steve, I just remember all of the 3.5 pdfs being pulled and people having to download stuff at short notice to hold onto books they didn't have on a computer.
I didn't even realise they had reversed the decision, just don't keep up with WotC stuff.
I knew they had an online thing but I thought it was a character builder and VTT. Were DDI subscribers getting adventure content each month as part of the sub then?
Thanks Steve, I just remember all of the 3.5 pdfs being pulled and people having to download stuff at short notice to hold onto books they didn't have on a computer.
I didn't even realise they had reversed the decision, just don't keep up with WotC stuff.
I knew they had an online thing but I thought it was a character builder and VTT. Were DDI subscribers getting adventure content each month as part of the sub then?
Yeah, it was excellent value (and I think they're still producing adventures and campaign material - although my sub has now lapsed). Of course I much prefer Paizo's style of adventure, so it may be cheap but undesirable for many. Nonetheless, on a dollar per page basis, it was the best $10 a month I've ever seen. It helps that the character builder and other tools were enough to justify the cost on their own, in my view. They were really well done.
As well as the PDFs on dndclassics.com, they are releasing some of the older editions in hardcover (the 3.5 spell compendium being the one I suspect paizo fans will be most likely to be interested in).
I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.
The character builder is really exceptional. I wouldn't play 4E without it. They are still producing other material (I suspect less, so your reducing value comment is probably right), but even if they weren't, I suspect many 4E fans would stay subscribed just for access to that.
That it's even still on the top five list at all means that it's absolutely crushing all competitors, with the possible exception of Paizo.
How can you tell that from the ICv2 list? All the list says is that D&D's currently the third best selling RPG in brick & mortar. Without any actual numbers concerning Wizards of the Coast's digital offerings or their sales through online stores, how can you tell that they're crushing anything? They may be crushing all competitors or they may be struggling to keep up. Without any actual sales numbers, we just don't know, do we?
Hell, for all we know, Fantasy Flight Games might be the major power player here. They produce the Star Wars RPG AND the Various Warhammer 40,000 RPGs and they offer their products through Brick & Mortar stores as well as online stores. In addition, their PDF sales through DriveThruRPG seem to be going rather well.
So yeah, I'm genuinely curious. How do you reach the conclusion that Wizards of the Coast's crushing anything? I'm not saying they don't. I just don't have enough data to reach any kind of conclusion in that regard. It's a bold statement and I'm just wondering if there's an aspect to this I'm missing.
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So, would you postualte that Pathfinder is selling less books online than WotC?I don't really know. But my point is that ICv2 is just as ignorant on the subject as I am. Yet every quarter, people on this website use their rankings to cheer about how Pathfinder is the most popular-est RPG EVUR!!!
People on this website and certain others used these exact same reports to trumpet D&D's dominance and poo-poo Paizo. My how the worm has turned.
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So yeah, I'm genuinely curious. How do you reach the conclusion that Wizards of the Coast's crushing anything? I'm not saying they don't. I just don't have enough data to reach any kind of conclusion in that regard. It's a bold statement and I'm just wondering if there's an aspect to this I'm missing.
I'll freely admit it's 100% conjecture, but the fact that they are still #3 on the list when their business model has shifted away from the areas that the poll measures, added to the fact that they didn't put out any new content aside from the 1e reprints, to me strongly suggests that they are doing quite well, at least in comparison to most RPG companies (admittedly, I don't think it's ever been in doubt that they are at the very least #2, all sales considered).
And yes, Fantasy Flight Games is having a impressive run with their new Star Wars franchise, and the WH40K books have made the list pretty consistantly. I'd definately use those same powers of conjecture to say that they are currently almost certainly the #3 player in the RPG market. I haven't looked at their Star Wars stuff (not much of a SW fan), but I do own some of their WH40K books, and it's well deserved. I'd probably rate their stuff as having the best production values of any "large" RPG company.
Has WoTC released any new D&D product? I know about the reprints, but beside that?
The entire Dungeon Command miniature game line, along with some tokens and other boardgame stuff.
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Kthulhu,
You do realize the numbers that ICV2 is using ALSO comes from the manufacturers themselves as well? Both Paizo AND WotC have said as much in regards to their sales and ICV2.
WotC in having not sold much in the way of RPG sales of late is falling behind because of that and will gain ground once D&D Next is released. But the fact that they are doing sales through books and the so called touted DDI subscription is not going to be to it's benefit. Unless they get rid of the silverlight attachment to the software. Being able to use the DDI software on a tablet or Smart Phone would greatly increase their sales. But they seem unwilling to do so.
I look forward to seeing the numbers once D&D next is released. I am thinking it will not see as much of an increase as WotC might like. Which to me saddens me as I know how Hasbro likes to cut their losses. Even if the company is making a little money but not what THEY want it to make... might see the sale of D&D to another company once again.
This is speculation as you are wont to do above... but based on what I have seen in the past... a speculation that could see fruition if the number of sales does not add up to what Hasbro was wanting them too.
I am all about loyalty and having been a D&D player now since 1974 makes me a VERY loyal customer and player of D&D. But that aside I do think the numbers are fairly accurate. Online sales being what they are, Pazio has cornered the market their with their subscription service. The fact that WotC is now starting to embrace online sales where they previously were dead set AGAINST says alot to this type of sales program. (Talking strictly PDF for WotC not wanting to do with marketing). While, yes DDI services had the rules available for use.. you NEEDED an internet connection of some kind and a way to access it that was not a smart phone or tablet. You could not download said rules to a device.
BTW Paizo is not just hard copy.. they are very much PDF's as well.. Trust me on that in the many events I attend with Pathfinder involved, about half access the rules through PDF's and or the PFSRD. So while Hard Copy still is great so are PDF's and they weight a heck of a lot less :)
I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.
The number I saw bandied about recently is ~80,000 subscribers. I have no doubt that Paizo would consider a $500K monthly cashflow "significant", although I'm less sure that Hasbro would think so.
I look forward to seeing the numbers once D&D next is released. I am thinking it will not see as much of an increase as WotC might like. Which to me saddens me as I know how Hasbro likes to cut their losses. Even if the company is making a little money but not what THEY want it to make... might see the sale of D&D to another company once again.
Hasbro is notorious for never letting go of an intellectual property. They will never sell D&D, but they will kill it, leave it in the ground for 5-10 years, and then reanimate it. Probably with Transformers.
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I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.
Then you're about to be surprised.
There are currently nearly 90,000 confirmed D&D Insider subscribers. We know this, because the D&D community site automatically adds DDI subscribers to an exclusive community group (whose membership is public), and then removes those members automatically when their subscription ends. This number has steadily increased by nearly 10,000 subscribers on a year-by-year basis. However, members are only added to the community group after they create a community account - something that is not a requirement of subscribing. In other words, 90,000 is a floor for what the actual number of active subscribers is, and is likely a low floor. The actual figure (which we don't have access to) is probably well into the six-digits.
The notion that the value of a subscription is decreasing by the year is also false. DDI is certainly receiving a thinner stream of content than it did towards the beginning of its life cycle, but every bit of content released adds to the subscription's value, because as a subscriber you have access to all the official content ever created for 4e. For the value of a subscription to decrease, they would actually have to remove content while adding nothing new.
I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.The number I saw bandied about recently is ~80,000 subscribers. I have no doubt that Paizo would consider a $500K monthly cashflow "significant", although I'm less sure that Hasbro would think so.
I'm pretty sure there isnt any publicly available number of subscribers. When I've seen this discussed, the number quoted is the number of members on the "DDI Insiders group" on the WotC forums (or something like that). A list that you're not necessarily removed from when you unsubscribe.
.Nonetheless, I think your point is very valid. Whatever the number is, I suspect it's a very substantial revenue stream for the D&D division of WotC. It's certainly the one they've devoted the most effort to over recent years, even after having abandoned print support for 4E (granted it's probably now serving a dual role of preparing the ground for D&D:Next).
People on this website and certain others used these exact same reports to trumpet D&D's dominance and poo-poo Paizo. My how the worm has turned.So, would you postualte that Pathfinder is selling less books online than WotC?I don't really know. But my point is that ICv2 is just as ignorant on the subject as I am. Yet every quarter, people on this website use their rankings to cheer about how Pathfinder is the most popular-est RPG EVUR!!!
Yeah, the ICv2 numbers have been cited as gospel for years. The methodology is just terrible though and what's being measured is generally not the same as what people take it to mean. (All the FF games are lumped together, for example. Dungeon Command is counted as a boardgame sales at some stores and as an RPG sale at others).
.I saw a casual "study" based on google searches over the last few years. The scope was very limited, but at least they were explicit about their methodology and assumptions and called out its limitations.
I'm pretty sure there isnt any publicly available number of subscribers. When I've seen this discussed, the number quoted is the number of members on the "DDI Insiders group" on the WotC forums (or something like that). A list that you're not necessarily removed from when you unsubscribe.I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.The number I saw bandied about recently is ~80,000 subscribers. I have no doubt that Paizo would consider a $500K monthly cashflow "significant", although I'm less sure that Hasbro would think so.
A few of us over at ENWorld ran an experiment just last month to put this one to rest. You are removed from the Insider community group when you unsubscribe.
Combined with the fact that many subscribers do not show up in the group due to not having created community accounts, WotC can be assumed to have a monthly revenue of between $500,000 and $1,500,000 for D&D Insider alone. Given that they likely pay very little to keep it running and add new content, I have no doubt at all that Insider is considered a huge financial success for the company.
I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.Then you're about to be surprised.
There are currently nearly 90,000 confirmed D&D Insider subscribers. We know this, because the D&D community site automatically adds DDI subscribers to an exclusive community group (whose membership is public), and then removes those members automatically when their subscription ends. This number has steadily increased by nearly 10,000 subscribers on a year-by-year basis. However, members are only added to the community group after they create a community account - something that is not a requirement of subscribing. In other words, 90,000 is a floor for what the actual number of active subscribers is, and is likely a low floor. The actual figure (which we don't have access to) is probably well into the six-digits.
I didnt realise that. Probably best to igore my post a few up then. :p
I'm pretty sure there isnt any publicly available number of subscribers. When I've seen this discussed, the number quoted is the number of members on the "DDI Insiders group" on the WotC forums (or something like that). A list that you're not necessarily removed from when you unsubscribe.I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.The number I saw bandied about recently is ~80,000 subscribers. I have no doubt that Paizo would consider a $500K monthly cashflow "significant", although I'm less sure that Hasbro would think so.A few of us over at ENWorld ran an experiment just last month to put this one to rest. You are removed from the Insider community group when you unsubscribe.
Combined with the fact that many subscribers do not show up in the group due to not having created community accounts, WotC can be assumed to have a monthly revenue of between $500,000 and $1,500,000 for D&D Insider alone. Given that they likely pay very little to keep it running and add new content, I have no doubt at all that Insider is considered a huge financial success for the company.
Yeah I'm a little out of date now. (We moved from 4E a few months ago and my subscription and interest kind of waned). I wont delete my erroneous posts above, but I'm sure you're right.
Yeah I'm a little out of date now. (We moved from 4E a few months ago and my subscription and interest kind of waned). I wont delete my erroneous posts above, but I'm sure you're right.I'm pretty sure there isnt any publicly available number of subscribers. When I've seen this discussed, the number quoted is the number of members on the "DDI Insiders group" on the WotC forums (or something like that). A list that you're not necessarily removed from when you unsubscribe.I'd be surprised if the number of DDI subscribers was any significant. With every passing year it gets you less value for the same money.The number I saw bandied about recently is ~80,000 subscribers. I have no doubt that Paizo would consider a $500K monthly cashflow "significant", although I'm less sure that Hasbro would think so.A few of us over at ENWorld ran an experiment just last month to put this one to rest. You are removed from the Insider community group when you unsubscribe.
Combined with the fact that many subscribers do not show up in the group due to not having created community accounts, WotC can be assumed to have a monthly revenue of between $500,000 and $1,500,000 for D&D Insider alone. Given that they likely pay very little to keep it running and add new content, I have no doubt at all that Insider is considered a huge financial success for the company.
No worries; it was still up in the air until last month anyway.
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As I always do, here is the history of ICv2 Pathfinder and D&D rankings...
2009 Q4 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2010 Q1 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2010 Q2 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2010 Q3 D&D & PF 1st
2010 Q4 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2011 Q1 D&D 1st, PF 2nd
2011 Q2 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2011 Q3 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2011 Q4 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2012 Q1 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2012 Q2 PF 1st, D&D 2nd
2012 Q3 PF 1st, D&D 3rd
Summary:
D&D: 5x 1st + 1x Joint 1st + 5x 2nd + 1x 3rd
PF : 6x 1st + 1x Joint 1st + 5x 2nd
So finally, Pathfinder has outdone D&D on overall ranking places.
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My take away from this is ... Paizo has every right to be extremely proud.
I have nothing against Wizards or D&D - heck, I played and LOVED D&D since First Edition AD&D all the way to 3.5. I'm now very much a Pathfinder guy of course, but I have nothing against Wizards - 4th Edition just left me cold and did nothing for me.
The point is, it is a pretty amazing achievement for Paizo to see the Pathfinder RPG consistently rank right up there with D&D in sales and popularity, and in many cases beat it. It doesn't matter if you prefer D&D, Pathfinder or play both - such a feat is very impressive and should not be diminished.
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Yeah, those rankings are a testament to both Paizo and WotC.
Paizo because its managed to beat D&D.
WotC because it managed to have the top spot with an edition that many people didn't like, and it managed to retain 2nd spot even when a new edition was announced and 4e releases reduced to a trickle. Only in last quarter, well after D&D Next had been announced and playtesting started did D&D actually drop to 3rd place!!!!
As long as that feat is legitimate and not a result of skewed reporting, is the point a lot of people have made.
Yeah, skeptics say a lot of things like that when a source doesn't support their confirmation bias. The same could be said about anything putting D&D first, ultimately. The bottom line is if you trust a source to report the one ranking without undue bias, you should be able to trust it to report correctly when the rankings switch.
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As long as that feat is legitimate and not a result of skewed reporting, is the point a lot of people have made.
Oh, absolutely!
Of course, as Vic and others much more in the know have said, the ICV2 Rankings are not perfect by any means. BUT .. ICV2 uses enough data to be pretty close and give a pretty accurate approximation of where these games fall. And, since we really don't have any better way at this time, the ICV2 rankings are certainly close enough to be considered realistic
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The bottom line is if you trust a source to report the one ranking without undue bias, you should be able to trust it to report correctly when the rankings switch.
I recall the ICV2 being called out as of uncertain reliability before PF took the top spot. So I haven't seen an inconsistency with trust.
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People on this website and certain others used these exact same reports to trumpet D&D's dominance and poo-poo Paizo. My how the worm has turned.So, would you postualte that Pathfinder is selling less books online than WotC?I don't really know. But my point is that ICv2 is just as ignorant on the subject as I am. Yet every quarter, people on this website use their rankings to cheer about how Pathfinder is the most popular-est RPG EVUR!!!
GENERAL MELCHETT
Is this true, Blackadder? Did Captain Darling pooh-pooh you?CAPTAIN BLACKADDER
Well, perhaps a little.
GENERAL MELCHETT
Well, then, damn it all! What more evidence do you need? The pooh-poohing alone is a court martial offense!
CAPTAIN BLACKADDER
I can assure you, sir, that the pooh-poohing was purely circumstantial.
GENERAL MELCHETT
Well, I hope so, Blackadder. You know, if there's one thing I've learnt from being in the Army, it's never ignore a pooh-pooh. I knew a Major, who got pooh-poohed, made the mistake of ignoring the pooh-pooh. He pooh-poohed it! Fatal error! 'Cos it turned out all along that the soldier who pooh-poohed him had been pooh-poohing a lot of other officers who pooh-poohed their pooh-poohs. In the end, we had to disband the regiment. Morale totally destroyed... by pooh-pooh!
Publisher, Chief Creative Officer
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Kthulhu,
You do realize the numbers that ICV2 is using ALSO comes from the manufacturers themselves as well? Both Paizo AND WotC have said as much in regards to their sales and ICV2.
This is not true.
Manufacturers are not asked to supply information for this ranking. It is strictly between distributors and stores. Most game companies (certainly including Paizo and Wizards of the Coast) do not share their sales figures with anyone.
Yeah, the ICV2 gets less meaningful year by year as direct sales pick up more and more and SW appearing a 2nd place is an indicator for this.
I think the D&D team at WotC is noticeably larger than Paizo. If D&D really sold much less than PF for all these years overall I guess Hasbro would have closed it down long ago.
If D&D really sold much less than PF for all these years overall I guess Hasbro would have closed it down long ago.
It's certainly possible that 4E D&D at the very end of its lifecycle sold fewer books than Pathfinder in the middle of its lifecycle.
If a year or two from now Pathfinder is outselling the 5E D&D core rulebook with Half-Protean Fetchlings of Golarion (Volume 2), then it's time to start worrying about D&D.
Edition warring, part XXXIIII
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If D&D really sold much less than PF for all these years overall I guess Hasbro would have closed it down long ago.It's certainly possible that 4E D&D at the very end of its lifecycle sold fewer books than Pathfinder in the middle of its lifecycle.
If a year or two from now Pathfinder is outselling the 5E D&D core rulebook with Half-Protean Fetchlings of Golarion (Volume 2), then it's time to start worrying about D&D.
I stopped worrying about D&D a LONG time ago. I got Pathfinder now and I have more faith in Paizo as a company then I ever will again with WotC.
Eric Mona. My bad. I was going mainly by what I remembered from a while ago. That and ICV2 saying that they talk to the manufacturers on their web site.