Banditry, Caravans, and the Economy?


Pathfinder Online

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Goblin Squad Member

@Bluddwolf Okay, I will bite, what "real world" items or supply of items that we can find in-game are finite?


@ Sintaqx

Very well said.

Goblin Squad Member

What is permanently lost in a game economy is time. The merchant loses nothing more than or greater than (depending on your perspective) than the time it takes to replace the item lost.

Why do players play bandits, and steal resources from others?

1. It is challenging and fun ( yes this is a competitive game).

2. It is a better use of the bandit player's TIME, in his or her perspective.

Time is the one currency, most of us have in short supply. It is not the money or the items that we steal, that upsets the merchant / gatherers, it's their time.

So why do some players that want to be merchants or gathers, put up with this?

Because their #1 is the same as the bandits.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
@Bluddwolf Okay, I will bite, what "real world" items or supply of items that we can find in-game are finite?

Time and Map space

Goblin Squad Member

Well since we are not discussing whether bandits are "good" for the economy.

Bluddwolf wrote:

1. It is challenging and fun ( yes this is a competitive game).

So why do some players that want to be merchants or gathers, put up with this?

Because their #1 is the same as the bandits.

I can absolutely agree with this.

Bluddwolf wrote:
What is permanently lost in a game economy is time. The merchant loses nothing more than or greater than (depending on your perspective) than the time it takes to replace the item lost.

That is left open because of the bolded part. One person's perspective on time may be the $14.95/month cost to play the game. Just pointing out what some player's may think of as loss. To me it is more of a matter of making gold better, faster, with less personal frustration, and thumbing my nose at bandits. That is why I will explore avenues to make my fortune that do not leave me vulnerable to bandits. That will be challenging for sure. If that proves unentertaining I will consider other options.

Goblin Squad Member

Bringslite wrote:
If that proves unentertaining I will consider other options.

Such as banditry?

Goblin Squad Member

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Sintaqx wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
If that proves unentertaining I will consider other options.
Such as banditry?

Who can say? I cannot predict what my feeble mind, impatient demeanor, and poor judgment may get me involved in... ;)

Goblin Squad Member

Or Assassination. Good blog just recently.


Bringslite wrote:
Sintaqx wrote:
Bringslite wrote:
If that proves unentertaining I will consider other options.
Such as banditry?
Who can say? I cannot predict what my feeble mind, impatient demeanor, and poor judgment may get me involved in... ;)

I'm the same way!

On the one hand, I'd love to play a paladin.

On the other..... Bandit-King sounds nice! :P

Goblin Squad Member

Milo Goodfellow wrote:
... But think about the gold we provide to the economy in the form of bounties? We kill someone for goods we need, and they put a bounty on us. This takes goods out of the market but spreads more money around.

Don't stop there: You are also providing cause for merchants and gathering crafters to hire new players who desperately need money so they can perform the role of guards to defend the merchant against you.

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
Milo Goodfellow wrote:
... But think about the gold we provide to the economy in the form of bounties? We kill someone for goods we need, and they put a bounty on us. This takes goods out of the market but spreads more money around.
Don't stop there: You are also providing cause for merchants and gathering crafters to hire new players who desperately need money so they can perform the role of guards to defend the merchant against you.

Hey yeah! Hiring those guards provides gold to the economy too!!! ;)

Goblin Squad Member

@Tuoweit I believe my analysis is correct. Until the product is in use by the end-consumer, it is 'in the market.'

In this case, the quantity of those goods that were for 'private use' is simply replaced by the same quantity that the owning entity must purchase on the market. You accurately perceived this as explained in the second paragraph of your response.

That aside, I believe the item destruction from banditry will be a greater factor than this could ever be, so Supply will absolutely decrease in any case.

This is along the same principle as the question 'what if the bandits use the items themselves?' The demand curve shifts in that case because the bandits are satisfying a portion of their demand outside of the market (through stolen goods) in the long-run.

I've found one of the difficulties in conversing about economics is separating the meanings of the terms Quantity Demanded/Supplied and Demand/Supply. Their scientific meanings are much stricter than the colloquial uses. I even used the words incorrectly in a few parts of my earlier posts.

Goblin Squad Member

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Bluddwolf wrote:
Kakafika wrote:
Note that the bandit isn't "bringing more supply to the market," the supply is already in the market. The bandit stole supply, he did not create supply. The total amount of the goods remains the same or actually decreases, due to item destruction upon capture..

You are thinking in real world terms, were the supply of any item is finite, like the amount of currency in circulation. In a game supply is infinite, it has no meaning until it reaches the market, even if it changes hands, it has no real impact on the overall economy.

I could have 6 trillion units of lumber in my storage. That means nothing to everyone else on the server, because 10 other people could have twice as much. Even if someone steals it from me, if they sit on it, that does not impact the game economy. But, if someone suddenly dumps 6 trillion units of lumber on the market, at 1 cp per unit, no one would ever harvest lumber again, and they would certainly not put what they had on the market for anything more than 1 cp. This does not change the nature of the lumber nodes. They can still be harvested at the same rates, previous to the dump.

What GW would have to do is manipulate the supply, by increasing or decreasing the number of nodes or their yield rate and or cycle, to artificially control the potential market supply.

The supply of an item in the game, just as in the real world, is finite. The maximum rate at which resources can be found, extracted, and turned into goods depends on what GW sets them at in the game, as you pointed out.

If you have 6 trillion units of lumber in storage, you have been artificially raising the price of that good in order to accumulate it. That market would be operating at a surplus.

In this graph, if you accumulated that wood by buying all lumber priced under 3(cp), the suppliers are happy to sell just over 40 (trillion) Quantity on the market for that price, while the market only demands just over 30 (trillion). Your 6 trillion lumber comes from part of that excess Quantity Supplied.

When you dump all of that lumber on the market, it is simply a transfer of wealth from you to the consumers. When you set the price at 1(cp), current suppliers will only continue to supply a Quantity of about 10 (trillion). Your lumber will make up the difference between the Quantity Demanded at that price (just over 50 [trillion]) and the Quantity Supplied (just over 10 [trillion]).

After you have finished manipulating the price in this relatively short time, the price will shift towards the equilibrium in the long-run.

Goblin Squad Member

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Banditry is probably a null op in terms of the overall game economy since it neither creates nor destroys any real wealth (just effects the distribution of it).

However it plays a VERY important role in terms of gameplay by adding a whole new dimension to how players approach the economic game in order to measure thier success in it.

Without Banditry it's....

1) Aquire Raw Materials

2) Turn Raw Materials into usefull goods

3) Sell Goods for Proffit.

Banditry adds...

4) Keep Materials and Goods from being taken away.

It spawns at least 2 new industries....

- Bandit
- Guard

And probably several more...

- Fence
- Bandit Hunter
- Insurance Provider

All in all it adds alot to the game. Not the least of which is simply making things quite a bit more exciting for the player.

Goblin Squad Member

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Banditry does remove wealth from the economy since not everything can be looted, and what is not looted is destroyed. How much is a question that the designers and devs will have to answer. It also introduces combat, which has the potential to destroy goods and consumables (either consumed or destroyed during looting), so in terms of the overall economy it could be considered a negative operation. It adds churn to the market, increasing demand and reducing supply in a variety of areas. It also increases market uncertainty, and may well be a significant source of price fluctuation.

The biggest thing it adds to the game is variety. The professions and industries centered around it, the uncertainty of the transport, the disappointment of loss and the elation of victory.

Goblin Squad Member

GrumpyMel wrote:
Banditry is probably a null op in terms of the overall game economy since it neither creates nor destroys any real wealth (just effects the distribution of it).
Bandits that rob you will only take a fraction of what you had on you, destroying the rest...

That's not to say I don't agree with your point that banditry adds a lot to the game; I do agree with that.

Goblin Squad Member

As far as how much can be looted after successfully ambushing and subduing a caravan, I would hope that it's a largish fraction. I wouldn't be concerned so much with the looting of the husk, rather my goal would be the claiming of the wagons. I can see pack and dray beasts being spooked by combat and running off, scattering and possibly destroying some of the loot (how they manage to destroy large stacks of ore is beyond me but I'll bite) and wagons, so not all the loot is recoverable. And it should probably take a non-trivial amount of labor and time to shift goods from one broken wagon to another, or to gather the fallen goods from the trail (who says bandits aren't in the gathering profession?). Like dungeons that may take multiple trips to fully loot, so to should large caravans.

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