New to MMO...


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So these MMOs...

Are they story driven?

The combat - is it like NWN2? (third person top down - able to zoom right out using mouse wheel)

Can you play them on your own?

Thanks.


Imagine stepping into a theater where everyone gets to say something and be heard by everyone, at least once. the only thing is, they do it anonymously, and to get the most attention, it has to be something rude, hurtful, ridiculous, and/or offensive. the more extreme, the better.

that's all you need to know about mmo's these days.

Goblin Squad Member

Mattaus wrote:

So these MMOs...

Are they story driven?

The combat - is it like NWN2? (third person top down - able to zoom right out using mouse wheel)

Can you play them on your own?

Thanks.

Most MMOs are story driven yes. They are called 'themepark' because everything is provided by the game developers, including all the stories everyone gets to interact with. Pathfinder Online will be a bit different. We have been told that in the very beginning there will be some of that, but then once you are familiar with the game the only stories will be the ones the players create interacting with one another. The developer primarily provides the setting, and how the things we can do work. The rest of it, the story, its plot, what we do and where we go will be whatever we make of it.

Combat? We don't yet know much about it.

Play them on your own... as in without other people? This one most likely not, or at least it will be very challenging to do. Some you pretty much can. Star Wars: the Old Republic is pretty much like that if you prefer. Guild Wars 2 as well can largely be soloed. This one: Not so much.

Goblin Squad Member

Mattaus wrote:

So these MMOs...

Are they story driven?

The combat - is it like NWN2? (third person top down - able to zoom right out using mouse wheel)

Can you play them on your own?

Thanks.

Well it sounds like you are legitimately unfamilliar with MMORPGs at all, so I'll give you some basic overviews of the genre. Then include more specific to pathfinder online information.

Well first off, the term MMO varies greatly in meaning, all it means is massive multiplayer online, of which there are thousands of games that meet the criteria, some are 3rd person, some could be first person etc...

As far as can you play them on your own... if by that you mean entirely single player, no by definition an MMO game involves a world with many other players, Now as far as whether you can solo and ignore those other players when playing online, that also varies from game to game. In some MMO's most of the challenges are designed too difficult for individuals in which require you to team up with other players to progress, some games you will progress much faster by ignoring the other players, and essentially you are all backdrops for eachother that sometimes get in your way. Some of the more popular MMO's like WoW, wind up where that alternates in the games lifecycle, where when you start out, it is far faster to progress up to a certain point entirely solo, with maybe an optional dungeon that you will need a team of 5 to clear, but then when you hit a point, everything to help you move any further requires a huge team of 20 or 40.

Pathfinder online, from the descriptions in the current plans, it is most likely 3rd person, most likely camera panning behind the character. Possibly you can put it overhead, but you would greatly limit your line of sight by doing so.

Pathfinder online is specifically designed focusing on player interaction, IE groups teaming up together to accomplish huge feats of city building, construction, development, warfare etc...

It is not expected to cater heavilly to people who do not want to work with other players, (that isn't to say it will not be possible, just that it will likely take more work, with higher risk, for less gain if you try to go it alone). There will be warfare, times where groups of players compeate and fight against other players etc...

for more details on the overall gameplan of PFO, check out the blog.

Members of the 7th veil composed a really nice list
here

Goblin Squad Member

There are as many answers to your questions as there are MMOs.

Goblin Squad Member

Mattaus wrote:

So these MMOs...

Are they story driven?

The combat - is it like NWN2? (third person top down - able to zoom right out using mouse wheel)

Can you play them on your own?

Thanks.

I Mattaus - you reference NWN2 - I suggest similar games that you might enjoy:

1) Story-driven (narrative you mean)
2) Single-player emphasis

1. Baldur's Gate Enhanced edition (gog.com)
2. Project Eternity (in dev: kickstarted)
3. Shroud of the Avatar (kickstarter campaign live)
4. Torment: Tides of Numenera (kickstarter also ending)
5. ES: Skyrim

Those are fantasy (apart from 4.), there's also shadowrun (both rpg and corpg versions) and Star Citizen etc.

etc

These are not considered MMOs, but they contain the focus that seem to interest you?

1. & 2. I think may have the closest combat to NWN2 and it's isometric/2.5d perspective.

3. Shroud of the avatar appears to be a bit like Skyrim with more multiplayer components?

If you have any more specific questions on MMOs or Pathfinder Online (PFO), feel free to fire away!

Useful Links: Goblin Works Blog

Nihimon's useful summary: Recruitment & Helpful Links

Edit: Apparently you can play GW2 fairly solo and it has some nice story eg personal story and lore infused in the game (but more actiony combat and camera follows the avatar). It's a themepark mmorpg. Pathfinder will be a sandbox mmorpg, where emergent story not narrative story, strong social emphasis, combat will be similar to tab-target combat but hopefully as said someone else be more tactical with 6 second "rounds" and camera following the avatar. But it will be a skill-training progression system for skills.

The Exchange

OK thanks for your answers, Ive played all the BG series, Icewind dale, NWN series and all the add ons for each...

After reading the posts, MMOs don't sound like they're my 'cup of tea'

Thanks.

Goblin Squad Member

@Mattaus - I know Star Wars The Old Republic has very strong narrative and is F2P also. That might interest you? The Secret World likewise has strong lore as does LOTRs Online - they're all F2P. Maybe worth a look.

But generally the TT transition seems most fidelity in NWN and BG ie narrative + small group collaborative cooperation and character dev and tactical round based combat etc.

Also check out The Banner Saga. They have a f2p multiplayer "factions" out atm, but that's all for their single-player game combat side. It will be a mash up of:

1. Oregon Trail
2. King of Dragon Pass
3. Turn based combat ala idk Final Fantasy?

Worth a look.

=

Back to PFO, I think as this is sandbox, it has potential to have vast scope, so even thought the focus is not adventure coop, that might turn out to be a very satisfactory part of the game albeit watch your back for enemy players if you are in a neutral or wild or hostile hex. We'll have to see.

But GW have some of the right things here at this vv early stage:

1. High specialisms for group roles
2. Economy based -> crafter focused item production
3. Dungeons randomly popping in hexes for groups to find
4. Pathfinder lore and art
5. Eventually there will be more pve adventure modules added.

As patchy as that sounds, that's where things are this early in dev I believe.


This is off topic, but geeze Tides of Numenera and Project Eternity both raised a LOT more then their initial goals in KS! I'm surprised that SotA haven't raised more then it has so far considering how well known RG is to the community.

Tides looks pretty cool though. Looks like it will have a good storyline.

Goblin Squad Member

@Valandur, I think it's a case of "What have you done for me lately?" Yeah, there are a lot of us who grew up playing Ultima, and Ultima Online was one of the first graphical MUDs, but I imagine there's a whole generation in their early 20's right now who don't even know who Lord British is.

Goblin Squad Member

...or Tracy Hickman (of Dragonlance) who will be writing or leading the writing of the storyline(s). That is creativity on the same order as PFO enjoys.

Should be a stellar content team there. I'm amazed they are at only 1.4 million right now.

Goblin Squad Member

guilty of not knowing who Lord British was, but Tracy Hickman stole large amounts of my childhood.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
@Valandur, I think it's a case of "What have you done for me lately?" Yeah, there are a lot of us who grew up playing Ultima, and Ultima Online was one of the first graphical MUDs, but I imagine there's a whole generation in their early 20's right now who don't even know who Lord British is.

Actually, I'm in my 40's, and I've been playing games (PnP, Console, PC) since I was probably 6 years old. I never played UO or even EQ, that was before (slightly) my online gaming time. I was more of a single player PC gamer:

High Seas Trader
Sea Dogs
Cutthroats
Sid Meier's Pirates
Daggerfall
Morrowind
Oblivion

It wasn't until around 2002, that I began playing MMOs:

Earth and Beyond
Star Wars Galaxies
World of Warcraft
EVE Online

Were my first four MMOs.

Goblin Squad Member

@Bluddwolf, I'm 42, and I never got into most of the single-player or console games. I played ArcticMUD in the 90's, mostly because it was free (I was a slacker, living in Austin), but also because there was something really compelling about it. I realize now that might very well have been due to the Open PvP nature of it, even though I thought I hated that about it. I remember wanting to try UO, but not being able to afford it, and couldn't really get into EQ for a while either. I eventually got into EQ when the Ruins of Kunark expansion came out, and was hooked.

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
@Valandur, I think it's a case of "What have you done for me lately?" Yeah, there are a lot of us who grew up playing Ultima, and Ultima Online was one of the first graphical MUDs, but I imagine there's a whole generation in their early 20's right now who don't even know who Lord British is.

Maybe some people haven't forgiven him for Ultimae 8 and 9 :)

Goblin Squad Member

@Bluddwolf

High Seas Trader
Sea Dogs
Cutthroats
Sid Meier's Pirates
Daggerfall
Morrowind
Oblivion

Hmm... I can see that you DO really like playing "Bandit Style" ;)


Mattaus wrote:

So these MMOs...

Are they story driven?

They can be if you want them to be. Seems as though the typical person falls rather toward the "powergamer" end of the spectrum, but remember that the typical person is not really a "gamer" at all. Some MMOs put a great deal of effort into creating background lore and stories and highly detailed quests and that sort of thing, but some don't.

And some people's idea of "highly detailed lore" doesn't fit others'.

Most (all?) MMO communities do feature sub-communities of roleplayers. Older MMOs' roleplay communities are strongest (though they also tend to develop a singularly idiosyncratic and insular atmosphere which makes them rather opaque to newbs or outsiders).

If you find a very active roleplay guild on an RP server, your experience might be roughly similar to a Persistent World that you may have played on using NWN2.

Though without the DMs that NWN2 famously features.

Mattaus wrote:
The combat - is it like NWN2? (third person top down - able to zoom right out using mouse wheel)

Combat can be handled in many ways, but usually does bear a good deal of resemblance to NWN2, mechanically. As for camera controls, the vast majority of MMOs these days are played in third-person mode. Most of them also have a "first person" camera position available, too, though.

Some games, like DDO and Age of Conan, have attack systems which defy precedent or description. Some, like EQ1 most famously, use "auto-attack" which can make combat rather "boring" for most people who are playing "auto-attack-centric" characters like Warriors and Rangers. The general result is that combat still has a "flow" very much like you may have seen in NWN2 with "holy trinity" group tactics and standardized-fantasy character types and abilities.

D&D's Vancian Casting is rightly shunned by modern game design in the video game format (and, in all seriousness, Paizo's decision to carry on Vancian Casting into Pathfinder infuriates me NO END).

Mattaus wrote:
Can you play them on your own?

Yes. Many of them, ironically, encourage this "solo" style of play, and most of them also recognize that "soloing" is not entirely healthy for the game's community. Although enforced grouping also has its own problems (ever spent three hours looking for a group so you could gain XP just because you were playing an unpopular class?). I think modern game designers have learned this lesson long since and a far more "moderate" approach is now industry standard. Though some games still do want to encourage players to group for the various benefits, it's quite uncommon to punish players who wish to solo nearly to the extent of, say, the turn of the millennium.

If you mean to ask if you can play an MMO offline, no. That would not qualify as a Massively-Multiplayer Online game of any sort. It is up to you whether you wish to associate with other players, and most MMOs currently in existence, as I said, can be played without help or hindrance from any other players... it may be difficult or even less rewarding, though. And usually parts of this difficulty and lack-of-reward are deliberate design features.

Why play an MMO if you actually want to just play a single player game?


Quote:
D&D's Vancian Casting is rightly shunned by modern game design in the video game format (and, in all seriousness, Paizo's decision to carry on Vancian Casting into Pathfinder infuriates me NO END).

What is Vancian casting? I'm not familiar with that term?

Goblin Squad Member

First described in one of Jack Vance novel and then adopted by D&D - that's system of spell slots and spell levels. No contingent mana pools, fixed spell stats etc.

Goblin Squad Member

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Bringslite wrote:

@Bluddwolf

High Seas Trader
Sea Dogs
Cutthroats
Sid Meier's Pirates
Daggerfall
Morrowind
Oblivion

Hmm... I can see that you DO really like playing "Bandit Style" ;)

Bringslite,

There is nothing like the rush you get by playing a scoundrel. Pirate, thief, rogue, smuggler, just about any profession that is a bit on the seedier side of life, but always rooted in the belief that it is all in the cause of being free.

I primarily played thieves, during my earliest days of PnP D&D as well. There is just something I've always liked about being sneaky and mischievious, and greedy!

In MMOs the added potential for PVP, when you steal from another player, just jacks up the thrill to new heights.

Goblin Squad Member

Bluddwolf wrote:
Bringslite wrote:

@Bluddwolf

High Seas Trader
Sea Dogs
Cutthroats
Sid Meier's Pirates
Daggerfall
Morrowind
Oblivion

Hmm... I can see that you DO really like playing "Bandit Style" ;)

Bringslite,

There is nothing like the rush you get by playing a scoundrel. Pirate, thief, rogue, smuggler, just about any profession that is a bit on the seedier side of life, but always rooted in the belief that it is all in the cause of being free.

I primarily played thieves, during my earliest days of PnP D&D as well. There is just something I've always liked about being sneaky and mischievious, and greedy!

In MMOs the added potential for PVP, when you steal from another player, just jacks up the thrill to new heights.

Oh, I can agree with you on that. In an early version of UO I had a naugthy character named "Nefarious Cur". Great fun. Since then, I have only played "bad" guys 50% in my single player or TT RPGs and always "good" guys in my MMOs. Just kind of lost my taste for ruining another's day I guess.

Goblin Squad Member

Mattaus wrote:

So these MMOs...

Are they story driven?

The combat - is it like NWN2? (third person top down - able to zoom right out using mouse wheel)

Can you play them on your own?

Thanks.

Mattaus,

As you can see from some of the posts here, main difference between a single player PC game, or even a Theme Park MMO, is that your character "Becomes the Story."

Yeah I know some will say that their characters in TP MMOs had their own stories, but that is not really true if you consider their experience was almost identical to that of anyone else playing the same class. Even the side quests, are the same for every one. The only unique characterization they have is what they do on the forums.

In a sand box MMO, and especially if PFO devs manage to really pull this off right, you will be playing your character's story out in-game. Your experiences will be mostly unique to you.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Marlagram wrote:
First described in one of Jack Vance novel and then adopted by D&D - that's system of spell slots and spell levels. No contingent mana pools, fixed spell stats etc.

More specifically, the concept of spells as "grenades" or "packets" which are prepared and then expended as if they were some sort of item or object or consumable ammunition. It feels like the wizard is irrelevant. As if the wizard is just a stupid ape who can call lightning and summon devils without doing anything that couldn't be done purely accidentally. It takes away the special-ness of the character.

It's excruciatingly counter-intuitive to me. Contrasts sharply with "mana" based systems or, really, any system which tries to depict "energies" in a sort of quasi-thermodynamic manner. I wonder if it's because the former seems so alien and the latter resembles the real universe so much more? Regardless, psionics and other systems manage to portray characters as being "special" and "powerful" in some way, in their own right, rather than just dumb pipes. And characters are appealing to me in a way that dumb pipes ... aren't.

Bluddwolf wrote:

There is nothing like the rush you get by playing a scoundrel. Pirate, thief, rogue, smuggler, just about any profession that is a bit on the seedier side of life, but always rooted in the belief that it is all in the cause of being free.

I primarily played thieves, during my earliest days of PnP D&D as well. There is just something I've always liked about being sneaky and mischievious, and greedy!

In MMOs the added potential for PVP, when you steal from another player, just jacks up the thrill to new heights.

I wonder if there's something about the concept of a "class system" which is deeply connected with the human condition? I've observed that players do tend to identify much more strongly with a specific character class or archetype than any other. Jung eat your heart out.

Goblin Squad Member

Aunt Tony wrote:


I wonder if there's something about the concept of a "class system" which is deeply connected with the human condition? I've observed that players do tend to identify much more strongly with a specific character class or archetype than any other. Jung eat your heart out.

It is more likely, in my case at least, that after nearly 40 years of RPGs, in which nearly 99% of them were class based, its hard to break the habit.

It remains to be sen if PFO is truly a classless system, like there is in EvE.


Bluddwolf wrote:
It remains to be sen if PFO is truly a classless system, like there is in EvE.

Sounds so far as if it'll be more class-based than EVE.

By quite a bit, in my opinion.

Goblin Squad Member

There have been archetypes as long as there has been human culture.

Just because we have archetypic roles we think of when we consider playing a role playing game does not mean our tendency to consider how we will fill those roles is a fault, nor that such a fault is in the game's design.

Goblin Squad Member

Aunt Tony wrote:
Bluddwolf wrote:
It remains to be sen if PFO is truly a classless system, like there is in EvE.

Sounds so far as if it'll be more class-based than EVE.

By quite a bit, in my opinion.

That's funny, I've been thinking that EvE isn't exactly class-less, and PFO will be somewhat more class-less than EvE.

I mean, in EvE, you fly a ship, and you generally can't use another ship's abilities in that ship, right?. Seems less multi-classable than what I see as PFO's model: You choose a 'class feature' and you can use abilities that don't tie into that class feature, but at lower power.

Goblin Squad Member

When I said that EvE is a classless game, I mean that there are no restrictions to what you can eventually train in.

You can do combat, you can mine, you can research, you can manufacture, you can explore, you can do many many things and eventually master them all. Yes it will take many years, perhaps more than 10 years, so no one had done it yet.

From the sound if it, PFO will still have something similar to training groupings of skills, that would amount to "classes", but with the possibility of a great number of lesser trained skills that can be trained as an option as well.

I've even read a mentioning of "dedication" bonuses, not confirmed by me, that will grant bonuses for having certain clusters if skills. This would sound somewhat familiar to the flagging system and how it rewards extended use if the same flag.

I don't really have an issue with following a training path towards some objective, so long as I don't have to do a respec along the way to go in a different direction if I choose to.

Goblin Squad Member

I'm not really seeing where you think PFO might differ from EvE, in that case.

Goblin Squad Member

Kakafika wrote:
I'm not really seeing where you think PFO might differ from EvE, in that case.

Well the primary difference, that we know of, is that EVE does not have alignment restrictions on its skills.

In PFO, even if I switch to a new set of alignment axis, that may not mean I can still use certain skills that I no longer have the alignment to use.

This may result in what some of use called "dormant skills". It would not mean that we lose the skill, it just means that we won';t be able to activate it until we once again meet the alignment requirements for it.

Goblin Squad Member

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Ah yes, that is an important difference. If I understand correctly: In PFO, the ability to use some 'classes' of 'ships' abilities precludes your ability to use some other ship's abilities in the medium-term, while in EvE the use of a single 'ship' precludes the use of all other ship abilities in the short-term. In PFO, you can choose any combination of available 'ships' in the short term.

It's a different type of versatility, and there will be more total permutations available to the players.

Goblin Squad Member

Or in the very short term as opposed to the very long term.

Skill sets in EvE are switched on and off as quickly as you can switch ships. This typically only takes as long as it takes for you to get to your dock and then get into a new ship. Minutes at best.

In PFO you can switch skill sets as quickly as switching weapons, seconds, or as long as it takes to regain an alignment after having list it do to activity.

Thus, the alignment system in PFO has more potential to create dormant skills and for that dormancy to last for a longer duration.

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