| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
30 plus years of fantasy trope on goblin kind. I find it hard that anyone interested in running a game based on this, doesn't know about goblins and dwarves being mortal enemies.
Let me give an example of this:
Millennia ago, heck nearly the beginning of time, according to norse mythology. The Frost Giants warred against the people of Asgard and Midgard. After the defeat of the Giants, Odin takes the Giant Kings son as his own (Loki) this doesnt happen exactly like it does in the avengers movie...but it is loosely this.
So... Knowing what he knows NOW, would Odin save Loki? Or just kill ALL the Frost Giants?
Something like this has happened SO many times, between dwarves and goblins, that dwarves dont bother sparing any goblins at all, they have tried that and have been duped. Dwarves live long enough to try it, learn from it, and still be the same dwarf, not the dwarf's son or grandson. Lessons are not easily forgotten with such a long lived race. Now take countless generations of that race, to the point where they know goblins so well, they can predict whether they are going to zig, or zag, if they are bluffing or charging, to the point where they can get a combat bonus against them when fighting.
To say a dwarf doesn't KNOW everything about a goblin, is to say a ranger doesn't KNOW his favored enemy.
Now, REGARDLESS of the world your running, your dwarves KNOW goblins. So if your world has goblins of varying alignments and they are not all evil (in other words dwarves are english and goblins are french) the dwarf, would KNOW that.
As for a DM not knowing how bugbears act, this is why there is an entry in the Bestiary about them, and can be found online for free in the PRD, if you dont have that book.
But if you are using bugbears... how do you know how many hit points, and what they do? You need SOMEthing on them..... so I think that point is moot.
What does crying for mercy sound like in Goblin? Probably similar to what crying for mercy in infernal sounds like?
In WW2 how many soldiers knew a German was shouting "No don't shoot I am not a Nazi" and not "Die Yankee scum"?
Sure, dwarves innately speak goblin (because they hate them so much) but what about the other people in the party, how do they know what the bugbears are saying?
The party has also, already been encountering, and fighting bugbears. Why are they killing these innocent, furry, friendly creatures in the first place then?
The Males are all evil bad guys while the females and chidden are innocent furry humans?
I hate to go back in RL more, but:
Israel/Palestine
These people have been at each other since 1946. BUT there is no clearly evil side. Each one will say it's the other. This is a classic real world enemy, like the English vs. the French of the Old world.
Now it's quite plausible to fight off a band of PLO and run into their home and find cowering women and children, it's ALSO possible the women and children are secretly armed as well! You have a 50/50 issue there. Which makes the women and children almost more dangerous than the men. But if you lived in a community where the israelis bombed you because they felt like it and ran over your houses with tanks, would your women and children be armed?? MINE would.
Let's look at the israelis, it's a REQUIREMENT than they ALL (men and women) receive military training and serve in the IDF, after which they retain a firearm as part of the countries inactive reserve. So in one way or another, they are ALL armed and trained combatants. That doesnt mean they carry a rifle daily, but they DO keep them at home.
Are the israelis evil? No. Palestinians? No. Are some of them? Yes, because they vary as much as any human will.
Heck for some, it's difficult to tell the difference between the arabs and the jews. Ironically, manny of them grow up childhood friends only to join opposing sides of the issue as adults.
This is NOT the Dwarf/goblin relationship in 99% of fantasy. IF it was, then it would be more like dwarves vs. elves. Goblins are who they are because they are dark, twisted and evil.
Some people want to play the race card, because they have real world issues and hypersensitivity to 'dont judge a book by its cover' and they want to bring it into their fantasy world... fine.
Tell someone, everyone, that's how THIS world works. However...in that world, WHY would dwarves have a hated enemy of goblins? They probably wouldnt. Need to give them a replacement in the ARG.
In fact in that world WHY are there goblins at ALL. (since the races are the epitome of twisted evil?)
Dont want massively twisted, evil, kill on sight monsters? Dont use goblins , use halflings, humans and elves. You will get different reactions from your players.
Which brings me back to why were they fighting and killing these lovable furry humans in the first place? Because they had weapons??
Remind me not have a pocket knife around THIS crew!
|
... Thats a thread? Well then... Thats rather disturbing.
Yeah, it was the lowest I've ever seen an alignment thread sink. It did not feel good to be around when that was going on. It sure as hell reinforced why I avoid certain games at least.
I am the James Jacobs school of thought when it comes to monsters... They are evil to the core.
James Jacobs apparently also believes in the concept of redemption, and that it is possible with monsters.
Good versions of evil monsters, are so rare its it a one in a million chance of one occurring and if it isn't killed by its fellows then, the rest of the world will probably kill it by mistake.
Evil monsters are born with the viciousness and skills to survive in the wild, like wolves and crocodiles. If it cant survive then it doesn't deserve to.
And if one wants to play with that worldview, that's valid for them.
But those that want to play in a setting where mortal beings aren't necessarily born damned and beings can be changed for the better, or a setting where evil is more cultural than genetic...folks that want to play heroes that don't commit genocide....their playstyle is equally valid.
It's just that some playstyles are incompatible. That's why it's important to find out what everyones' expectations are, because some of those players may not want to play with each other or in that campaign.
Why did you put them there? What did you expect the party to do with them?
Given what was said in the OP, they were likely there in the module he was running. That particular line of modules was also most likely written for 3.5 if he was running it in Pathfinder, and as such the expectations being pushed for here from Classic Monsters Revisited were never part of the equation.
30 plus years of fantasy trope on goblin kind. I find it hard that anyone interested in running a game based on this, doesn't know about goblins and dwarves being mortal enemies.
....
Now, REGARDLESS of the world your running, your dwarves KNOW goblins. So if your world has goblins of varying alignments and they are not all evil (in other words dwarves are english and goblins are french) the dwarf, would KNOW that.
That 30 years is far from homogenously on board with that conceit, and not all settings or gamers expectations are bound to that narrow view.
Some folks play the game as having races that have tendencies towards certain alignments, not locked-in alignments. Many of those folks have been playing that way for a very long time.
And some settings don't have dwarves and goblins linked like that. Not every gamer has that expectation, and aren't bount by any sort of rules passed down from mythology or LOTR or whatever else. There are far more flavors of fantasy out there than that.
I know when I started playing in 2E, my expectations and preferences weren't bound in any way to those common tropes that spun out of the Always Chaotic Evil approach.
@Mikaze, there has NEVER been a version of Dungeons and Dragons, EVER in print 9(or associated games like PF) where the dwarves and goblins were NOT hated enemies; as per RAW in any versions monster book. People who were playing otherwise were not playing the standard, anyone who has played the game KNEW what the 'regular' way was, simply be reading the "Dwarf" entry and the "goblin" entry.
Whether they chose to run their games that way is irrelevant. It is, was, and always has been quite common, easily accessible knowledge.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
@Mikaze, there has NEVER been a version of Dungeons and Dragons, EVER in print 9(or associated games like PF) where the dwarves and goblins were NOT hated enemies; as per RAW in any versions monster book. People who were playing otherwise were not playing the standard, anyone who has played the game KNEW what the 'regular' way was, simply be reading the "Dwarf" entry and the "goblin" entry.
Whether they chose to run their games that way is irrelevant. It is, was, and always has been quite common, easily accessible knowledge.
I'm talking about fantasy gaming as a whole(along with everyone else's settings, be they printed or not). Many of them outright reject the notion of entire races being okay to murder simply for being that race.
And yes, there have been printed settings without that built in alignment baggege. Eberron was deeply appreciated by a lot of folks for exactly that. And more than a few have questioned and criticized allegedly good-leaning races having racism-based powers while the evil ones don't. (and as far as racial features go, the "hatred" abilities have been by far the most easily disruptive in my experience)
James said redeemable monsters are incredibly rare.
Golarion has a Demon Goddess that spawns all of the monsters in the world, so species-ism is fine by me when your creator instills in you the essence of evil.
Look its perfectly fine in your game if orcs ride unicorns and burp fairy floss and shoot rainbows out their rear ends... As long as the players know this. As long as they know you have made it moral quandary world or evil is ambiguous world.
The default setting has monsters as evil to the core and changing that without telling the players is not on. That is the problem here.
It's true, Bugbears murder children from the prettier PC races and use their blood and bones to make bread for Bugbear holidays.
And yes, there have been printed settings without that built in alignment baggege. Eberron was deeply appreciated by a lot of folks for exactly that. And more than a few have questioned and criticized allegedly good-leaning races having racism-based powers while the evil ones don't. (and as far as racial features go, the "hatred" abilities have been by far the most easily disruptive in my experience)
Yay for gray morality! Sadly thats not Golarion? But neither was the OP's world was it? I don't think bugbears are always evil is a good reason to commit genocide when there is evidence to the contrary.
The worst thing about hatred imo, is that you can't replace it with anything but hatred for another race. In my games its either completely ignored or its played up to the point it becomes disruptive.