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Figured this out using Herolab, wanted to see what people thought.
Base speed 30' - medium creature
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Oracle of flame with the "cinder dance" revelation -
Cinder Dance (Ex): Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 5th level, you receive Nimble Moves as a bonus feat. At 10th level, you receive Acrobatic Steps as a bonus feat. You do not need to meet the prerequisites to receive these feats. Oracles with the lame oracle curse cannot select this revelation.
+
Barbarian Fast movement ability -Fast Movement (Ex): A barbarian's land speed is faster than the norm for her race by +10 feet. This benefit applies only when he is wearing no armor, light armor, or medium armor, and not carrying a heavy load. Apply this bonus before modifying the barbarian's speed because of any load carried or armor worn. This bonus stacks with any other bonuses to the barbarian's land speed.
+
Boots of striding and springing -These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 10 feet. In addition to this striding ability (considered an enhancement bonus), these boots allow the wearer to make great leaps. She can jump with a +5 competence bonus on Acrobatics checks.
= 30+10+10+10= 60
One enhancement bonus and one bonus that explicitly says it stacks with similar bonuses. Can anyone find a reason why this wouldn't be legal?
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You forgot Travel domain.
And monk levels, of course, but that's an enhancement bonus and won't stack with i.e. Expeditious Retreat.
So yes, an Oracle/Barbarian/(Inquisitor/Cleric) would move at a speed of 90' at best.
(30' base + 10' Cinder Dance + 10' Fast Movement + 10' Travel Domain + 30' Expeditious retreat)
Also, probably better than Cinder Dance because it's on the Metal mystery:
Dance of the Blades (Ex): Your base speed increases by 10 feet. At 7th level, you gain a +1 bonus on attack rolls with a metal weapon in any round in which you move at least 10 feet. This bonus increases by +1 at 11th level, and every four levels thereafter. At 11th level, as a move action, you can maneuver your weapon to create a shield of whirling steel around yourself until the start of your next turn; non-incorporeal melee and ranged attacks against you have a 20% miss chance while the shield is active. You must be wielding a metal weapon to use this ability.
Cinder Dance giving Nimble/Acrobatic is nice, though.
The only issue I see is that most of these state they increase the character's "base speed by 10 feet". It doesn't seem they would stack if that is the case.
Also, this appears to be more of a Pathfinder Rules question that is not specific to PFS.
I am in agreement with you Don. However, I see one caveat. A PC could take Fast Movement (because it states that it stacks with all other bonuses to land speed), and 1 OTHER bonus to land speed (Cinder Dance, Boots of Striding and Springing, Travel Domain, etc.) but I wouldn't think that multiple ones like this would stack. I'm only saying this because the land speed increase abilities, except Fast Movement, don't state that they stack with the others.
But then again, Deussu does have a point. It's not really a typed bonus (like the Monk's bonus and Expeditious retreat), but it is still affecting the same stat.
And who said a splash of Barbarian was always a bad thing? ;)
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The only issue I see is that most of these state they increase the character's "base speed by 10 feet". It doesn't seem they would stack if that is the case.
Why?
Unless I'm forgetting something, there's only one rule in the game that causes something not to stack: if two bonuses have the same type. That's clearly not the case here, so on what do you base your belief that they wouldn't stack? Is there another rule somewhere that I missed?
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I have seen a character briefly get a move of 120 during an event with a combination of abilities from himself and other party members.
A bad guy tried to escape by dimension-dooring to another part of the dungeon we were in, and the PC made a guess as to where the baddie might have gone to. The DM described this "boom" as the PC just about vanished. The baddie was greatly surprised to appear in his safe room only to be body-tackled by the PC.
:)
-j
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You forgot Travel domain.
** spoiler omitted **
And monk levels, of course, but that's an enhancement bonus and won't stack with i.e. Expeditious Retreat.
So yes, an Oracle/Barbarian/(Inquisitor/Cleric) would move at a speed of 90' at best.
(30' base + 10' Cinder Dance + 10' Fast Movement + 10' Travel Domain + 30' Expeditious retreat)
You forgot the feat, Tribal Scars. Grants you 6 HP, but if you choose the tribe Raptorscale, you get another 5 Base movement speed.
So how do you like that 190' charge lane?
People have mentioned the Monk movement speed bonus, but no one has mentioned the ability to spend a ki point to get +20 move speed for a round shared by both the Monk and the Ninja. It's only a temporary movement speed increase, but it is reliable.
If you use a tiefling (some variant for CHA bonus, I suppose, since you are throwing in oracle) and you can switch out your skilled trait for fiendish sprinter trait that gives a +10 racial bonus to running and charging speed.
Not sure if that means that you get that bonus before the multipliers (thus it can be +20, 30, or 40) or just added on after all the base speed gets multiplied. Still, it is a bonus to speed.
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Can you link to the Tribal Scars feat? I was recommended to take it on a character I am planning, but I can't find it anywhere.
It is in the People of the North Companion booklet that I got.
Prerequisite: Member of a Mammoth Lords tribe or following.
Benefit: You gain 6 hit points. In addition, you gain another benefit, depending on which Mammoth Lords following you belong to.
Bearpelt: You gain a +1 bonus on Fortitude saves and a +2 bonus on Intimidate checks.
Greattusk: You gain a +2 bonus on combat maneuver checks to make bull rush or overrun maneuvers and a +2 bonus on Ride checks.
Ice Chasm: You gain a +1 bonus on Reflex saves and a +2 bonus on Climb checks.
Night Hunt: You gain a +2 bonus on Perception and Survival checks.
Raptorscale: Your base land speed increases by 5 feet, and you gain a +2 bonus on Acrobatics checks.
Slothjaw: You gain a +1 bonus on Will saves and a +2 bonus on Handle Animal checks.
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Become druid.
Turn into velociraptor.
Done.
Advanced races book, pump your points into land speed and nothing else.
From the Advanced Race Guide, I think Sylphs can get 35 base speed. Might be an alternate racial trait.
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Become druid.
Turn into velociraptor.
Done.
So... Oracle 1/Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Druid 4
60' base + 10' Cinder Dance + 10' Fast Movement + 10' Travel Domain + 30' Expeditious retreat + 5' Tribal Scars
125' Movement Speed, 250' Charge. A.k.a. 28.4091038223 mph on the charge.
You are faster than Usain Bolt.
WE NEED MORE MOVEMENT!
Do Enlarge spells change your base speed?
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Nope, but lets try building something:
Human Oracle 1/Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Druid 4 (other stuff can be added later)
Level 1:
Base - Tribal Scars (Raptorscale)
Race - Fleet
Class (Oracle) - Cinder Dance
Level 2:
Class (Barbarian) - Fast Movement
Level 3:
Base - Fleet
Class (Cleric) - Travel Domain
Level 4:
Class (Druid)
Level 5:
Base - Fleet
Class (Druid)
Level 6:
Class (Druid)
Level 7:
Base - Fleet
Class (Druid) - Wild Shape (Raptor)
Level 8:
Class (Horizon Walker)
Level 9:
Base - Fleet
Class (Horizon Walker) - Terrain Mastery (Plains)
Level 10:
Class (Horizon Walker) - Terrain Dominance(Plains)
Wild Shape to Velociraptor. Dring Potion of Expedious Retreat.
60' Base
10' (Cinder Dance)
5' (Tribal Scars (Raptorscale))
10' (Fast Movement)
10' (Travel Domain)
30' (Expedious Retreat)
10' (Terrain Dominance)
25' (Fleet x5)
160' Base Land Speed. 320' Charge.
Edit: Added Horizon Walker Pretiege Class
Can you link to the Tribal Scars feat? I was recommended to take it on a character I am planning, but I can't find it anywhere.It is in the People of the North Companion booklet that I got.
** spoiler omitted **Emphasis mine about the base land speed.
Dang that thing is overpowered. +6hps at level 1? That's better than toughness alone and if we go greattusk, you get +2 to bullrush akin to improved bullrush, ditto to overrun and to top it off you get lesser verson of skill focus: ride. The thing is an overpowered feat and 3 lesser feats combined and stacks with everything. Dang.
Or just a level 1 dip into wizard or sorcerer for Expeditious Retreat. Boom, +30 ft movement speed.
The only issue I see is that most of these state they increase the character's "base speed by 10 feet". It doesn't seem they would stack if that is the case.Why?
Unless I'm forgetting something, there's only one rule in the game that causes something not to stack: if two bonuses have the same type. That's clearly not the case here, so on what do you base your belief that they wouldn't stack? Is there another rule somewhere that I missed?
It is because they all say, "the base speed is increased". This means for most medium races (which have a base speed of 30) when the recieve the bonus will have 40ft movement speed. Let's say you play human barbarian. You get 40ft movement speed. You take a 1 level dip in Oracle for cinder dance. This increases you base speed by 10 and will stack with Barb fast movement. This makes your base speed 40, and your land speed 50. If you pick up boots of sprining and striding on top they wont do anything because they also increase your base speed from 30 to 40. So, cinder dance will give base speed of 40, boots of striding and spring will give base speed of 40, even if used in conjunction. This means you will still only max out at 50. Your DM mileage may vary, but this is how I would rule it.
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If you pick up boots of sprining and striding on top they wont do anything because they also increase your base speed from 30 to 40.
Stop right there. Where are you getting the idea that the boots are setting your speed to a specific number? What the boots actually say is that they increase your speed by 10ft. So your belief that "increase by 10" actually means "becomes 40" is based on... what? How did that idea start?
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No, you're already much faster than him. Remember you can run at 4x your base speed. 500 feet per round = 56.818 MPH
125' Movement Speed, 250' Charge. A.k.a. 28.4091038223 mph on the charge.You are faster than Usain Bolt.
WE NEED MORE MOVEMENT!
Thank the run feet for 625 feet per round and you're moving at 71.022 MPH
If you pick up boots of sprining and striding on top they wont do anything because they also increase your base speed from 30 to 40.Stop right there. Where are you getting the idea that the boots are setting your speed to a specific number? What the boots actually say is that they increase your speed by 10ft. So your belief that "increase by 10" actually means "becomes 40" is based on... what? How did that idea start?
If your base speed is 30 and you get a 10ft bonus to your speed, you speed is now 40. It doesn't set it to 40, although I can sort of understand where you made that assumption but not really. If your base speed was 20, your speed would become 30. If you recieved an additional effect that also says it increase your base speed by 10, on most medium creatures that still means your speed is 40. I did ere when I made the statement base speed is 40, because your base speed is constant and depending on your creature type. What I meant to say was your movement speed would be 40. A human's base speed is always 30 ft, period. A dwarf's base speed is always 20. Effects, even multiple effects that reference base speed, always use this value. So multiple effects that say base speed is increased would end up not stacking.
These boots increase the wearer's base land speed by 10 feet.
Because it references your base speed and not your movement speed it doesn't stack with other things the work from referencing your base land speed.
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The boots (and some of the other effects) say they "increase your base speed". So you're saying that if an effect increases your base speed, other effects still reference what your base speed was before it was explicitly increased?
So when an effect increases your base speed, your base speed stays the same?
That's seriously how you think it works?
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If an effect says "Increases your base speed by 10'" and your base speed was 30'... it's now 40'. It doesn't say "You get a 10' enhancement bonus." It increases your base, therefore after the increase your *new* base is 40'.
You get another "increases your base speed by 10'" from somewhere? Reference your current base speed... which is at 40'. Add 10'. Etc.
If an effect says it increases a base, not adds a temporary or enhancement bonus but increases, then that's exactly what it does, increases the base to a new set level which is your base from that point onward.
The boots (and some of the other effects) say they "increase your base speed". So you're saying that if an effect increases your base speed, other effects still reference what your base speed was before it was explicitly increased?
So when an effect increases your base speed, your base speed stays the same?
That's seriously how you think it works?
I said that's how I would rule it did I not? I also implied you can choose to rule differently. I don't like other characters usurping the monk's super speed, it's one of the few defining things they get.
To me, while the sources arent' the same, they are similar and I wouldn't let these similar abilities stack.
Besides, to what end do you need to have a ridiculous base movement speed. If you want it so bad, play a monk.
Allow me to also elaborate by stating, that boots of striding and springing are considered an enhancement bonus. I would also consider cinder dance an enhancement bonus, since both types are enhancement bonus they don't stack.
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Except that whilst the boots are explicitly called out as an enhancement bonus the Cinder Dance isn't and as such is an untyped bonus, so RAW two entirely different forms of bonus. They're even very different thematically, the boots are a magical bonus that can be removed (hence enhancement) but the Dance is an ability imbued within the character themselves and cannot be removed.
If you choose to rule them as both enhancement in your own game that is of course entirely your right and that's cool, but as written, they are different bonuses and should stack.
Except that whilst the boots are explicitly called out as an enhancement bonus the Cinder Dance isn't and as such is an untyped bonus, so RAW two entirely different forms of bonus. They're even very different thematically, the boots are a magical bonus that can be removed (hence enhancement) but the Dance is an ability imbued within the character themselves and cannot be removed.
If you choose to rule them as both enhancement in your own game that is of course entirely your right and that's cool, but as written, they are different bonuses and should stack.
This thread is in advice, not rules. I have been talking about how I would rule it, and my advice if you want to have a high movement speed is play a monk. Ultimately, as I stated in my original post I implied that the OP should ask his DM whether he will allow it to stack.
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This thread is in advice, not rules.
Very fair point. Gotta give you that one. :)
I have been talking about how I would rule it, and my advice if you want to have a high movement speed is play a monk. Ultimately, as I stated in my original post I implied that the OP should ask his DM whether he will allow it to stack.
I think myself and others were perhaps thrown off by how you said it. You said this is how you'd rule it, and framed your rationale as being an explanation of how the ruleset works. Had you more clearly identified your stance as being something of your own construction (i.e., "In my games I prefer to do things this way, and it's been working well for us" or some such) then you might not have had to explain yourself. ;) Often when people say "this is how I rule it", they're meaning "this is my interpretation of how the rules already work or were intended to work by default", so that's how it came across.
Sorry for the de-rail, folks.
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Nope, but lets try building something:
Human Oracle 1/Barbarian 1/Cleric 1/Druid 4 (other stuff can be added later)
Level 1:
Base - Tribal Scars (Raptorscale)
Race - Fleet
Class (Oracle) - Cinder DanceLevel 2:
Class (Barbarian) - Fast MovementLevel 3:
Base - Fleet
Class (Cleric) - Travel DomainLevel 4:
Class (Druid)Level 5:
Base - Fleet
Class (Druid)Level 6:
Class (Druid)Level 7:
Base - Fleet
Class (Druid) - Wild Shape (Raptor)Level 8:
Class (Horizon Walker)Level 9:
Base - Fleet
Class (Horizon Walker) - Terrain Mastery (Plains)Level 10:
Class (Horizon Walker) - Terrain Dominance(Plains)Wild Shape to Velociraptor. Dring Potion of Expedious Retreat.
60' Base
10' (Cinder Dance)
5' (Tribal Scars (Raptorscale))
10' (Fast Movement)
10' (Travel Domain)
30' (Expedious Retreat)
10' (Terrain Dominance)
25' (Fleet x5)160' Base Land Speed. 320' Charge.
Edit: Added Horizon Walker Pretiege Class
Totem Spirit: Tamiir-Quah is another +5 ft. to base land speed.
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Let's take it to the max...
Human 30ft
1: Travel Domain Cleric +10ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ft
2-20: Monk +60 ft / Feats Fleet x9 +45ft / Ki pool: +20ft movespeed
21: Barbarian +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
22: Barbarian Rage Power: Sprint - x6 movespeed as a full round action.
23: Oracle Cinder Dance Revelation +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
24-28: Druid Velociraptor +30ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ft
Totaling that: Velociraptor (60) + Fleet x15 (+75) + Barbarian / Cleric / Oracle (+30ft) + Monk (60ft) + Ki pool (+20ft) = 245ft move speed.
He can sprint once a rage at 1350ft in 6 seconds (Out distancing a CL20 dimension door). This translates to 167.045 MPH. That's more that double your average highway speed. His jogging pace (a double move/charge) is 55.677 MPH, which nears highway speeds.
He could finish a marathon in a little over half an hour at a "brisk pace". He could get a speeding ticket for jogging down your average city road (though what cop is really going to have the balls pull over a velociraptor doing 55mph?). He could get from New York to LA in under a little over 50 hours, on foot. All this for a small, 28 level, investment. :P
...but would it be survivable?What is going to catch it?
Return of the jedi..... AT-AT...
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The only issue I see is that most of these state they increase the character's "base speed by 10 feet". It doesn't seem they would stack if that is the case.
Also, this appears to be more of a Pathfinder Rules question that is not specific to PFS.
See I view it in exactly the opposite fashion... the increases aren;t bonuses, aren't add-ons to the base speed, they are increases to the base speed itself, in other words increases to the thing as it is, not enhancements to the thing after the fact. Shield bonuses don't stack with one another, but increases to your base AC (increasing the 10 rather than adding to it) I think would.
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Of course...the real question is...how useful would a char that did this much multiclassing really be? Its great to theory craft a specific feature...but would it be survivable?
Coincidentally it's something I've been pondering recently as well, wondering if it's possible to have a viable Barbarian with Raging Leaper and a move speed of 70' plus as this would enable them to leap in, attack, leap away AND be out of most creatures move + attack range (and with some tactical placement out of a charge as well) which could prove very nice.
Still just an idea atm but some useful stuff in this thread for me to consider!
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We always joked in my group that someone should make a monk who took dodge > mobility > spring attack, deflect arrows, and spend every other feat on fleet.
Just so he could go running out of nowhere, punch someone in the face and then get far enough back that the enemy couldn't get to him and if they did take a pot shot he could deflect it.
It would be beautiful.
Well Toughness scales with level, Tribal Scars looks like it will never go over +6 HP. I was actually recommended to take the feat for a life link oracle build. Guess I need to buy that player's companion now so I can use the build in PFS.Dang that thing is overpowered. +6hps at level 1? That's better than toughness alone and if we go greattusk, you get +2 to bullrush akin to improved bullrush, ditto to overrun and to top it off you get lesser verson of skill focus: ride. The thing is an overpowered feat and 3 lesser feats combined and stacks with everything. Dang.Can you link to the Tribal Scars feat? I was recommended to take it on a character I am planning, but I can't find it anywhere.It is in the People of the North Companion booklet that I got.
** spoiler omitted **Emphasis mine about the base land speed.
Ya that is true but up untill level 6 toughness has no benefit over scars, witch is most of a pathfinder career. Worse it stacks with toughness.
@ Jonanna Swiftblade, the rage power sprint requires swift-foot as a prereq so you would have to drop a fleet somewhere in there for it. Also an elemental sorcerer gains +30 speed at level 15. Someething to consider. Also consider the synthisist summoner, it starts out with a base speed of 40 and can gain the extra legs eveloution for +10 base speed, better than fleet. Why don't you try and build a geshalt character and see what you can come up with.
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Totem Spirit: Tamiir-Quah is another +5 ft. to base land speed.
Unfortunately, Tribal Scars has the prereq of choosing a specific clan, much like the Totem Spirit's prereq of being Shoanti.
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Let's take it to the max...
Human 30ft
1: Travel Domain Cleric +10ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ft
2-20: Monk +60 ft / Feats Fleet x9 +45ft / Ki pool: +20ft movespeed
21: Barbarian +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
22: Barbarian Rage Power: Sprint - x6 movespeed as a full round action.
23: Oracle Cinder Dance Revelation +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
24-28: Druid Velociraptor +30ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ftTotaling that: Velociraptor (60) + Fleet x15 (+75) + Barbarian / Cleric / Oracle (+30ft) + Monk (60ft) + Ki pool (+20ft) = 245ft move speed.
He can sprint once a rage at 1350ft in 6 seconds (Out distancing a CL20 dimension door). This translates to 167.045 MPH. That's more that double your average highway speed. His jogging pace (a double move/charge) is 55.677 MPH, which nears highway speeds.
He could finish a marathon in a little over half an hour at a "brisk pace". He could get a speeding ticket for jogging down your average city road (though what cop is really going to have the balls pull over a velociraptor doing 55mph?). He could get from New York to LA in under a little over 50 hours, on foot. All this for a small, 28 level, investment. :P
You took one too many levels of monk, you only need 18 to get +60ft, and you forgot the +30ft from either expeditious retreat or haste, so 275ft, sprinting 1530ft in 6 seconds
Okay let's try a build with a level 20 cap
Human - 30ft
1-18 Monk - +60ft Total - 90ft
19 Barbarian - +10ft Total - 100ft
20 Oracle - +10ft Total - 110ft
Then add feats
Fleet x 7 - +35ft Total - 145ft
Skill focus(either planes or nature)
Eldrich Heritage, normal, Improved and greater in either elemental(fire) or Efreeti - +30ft Total - 175ft
Finally have your party sorcere polymorph you into a raptor and cast haste giving you another 60ft - Total 235ft (255ft /w ki)
Optionaly you could go with the stormborn eldrich heritage instead of Elemental(fire) or Efreeti to get the ride the thuder ability (10x speed in a strait line as a full round action) at the cost of 30ft base speed.
EDIT: Took out the option of a second level of barbarian to get the sprint rage power as upon looking it up I find that it requires barb 4.
You took one too many levels of monk, you only need 18 to get +60ft, and you forgot the +30ft from either expeditious retreat or haste, so 275ft, sprinting 1530ft in 6 secondsLet's take it to the max...
Human 30ft
1: Travel Domain Cleric +10ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ft
2-20: Monk +60 ft / Feats Fleet x9 +45ft / Ki pool: +20ft movespeed
21: Barbarian +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
22: Barbarian Rage Power: Sprint - x6 movespeed as a full round action.
23: Oracle Cinder Dance Revelation +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
24-28: Druid Velociraptor +30ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ftTotaling that: Velociraptor (60) + Fleet x15 (+75) + Barbarian / Cleric / Oracle (+30ft) + Monk (60ft) + Ki pool (+20ft) = 245ft move speed.
He can sprint once a rage at 1350ft in 6 seconds (Out distancing a CL20 dimension door). This translates to 167.045 MPH. That's more that double your average highway speed. His jogging pace (a double move/charge) is 55.677 MPH, which nears highway speeds.
He could finish a marathon in a little over half an hour at a "brisk pace". He could get a speeding ticket for jogging down your average city road (though what cop is really going to have the balls pull over a velociraptor doing 55mph?). He could get from New York to LA in under a little over 50 hours, on foot. All this for a small, 28 level, investment. :P
My bad. But the Monk levels give the same type of bonus as Haste or Expeditious Retreat, so it wouldn't stack.
My bad. But the Monk levels give the same type of bonus as Haste or Expeditious Retreat, so it wouldn't stack.You took one too many levels of monk, you only need 18 to get +60ft, and you forgot the +30ft from either expeditious retreat or haste, so 275ft, sprinting 1530ft in 6 secondsLet's take it to the max...
Human 30ft
1: Travel Domain Cleric +10ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ft
2-20: Monk +60 ft / Feats Fleet x9 +45ft / Ki pool: +20ft movespeed
21: Barbarian +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
22: Barbarian Rage Power: Sprint - x6 movespeed as a full round action.
23: Oracle Cinder Dance Revelation +10ft / Feat: Fleet +5ft
24-28: Druid Velociraptor +30ft / Feat: Fleet x2 +10ftTotaling that: Velociraptor (60) + Fleet x15 (+75) + Barbarian / Cleric / Oracle (+30ft) + Monk (60ft) + Ki pool (+20ft) = 245ft move speed.
He can sprint once a rage at 1350ft in 6 seconds (Out distancing a CL20 dimension door). This translates to 167.045 MPH. That's more that double your average highway speed. His jogging pace (a double move/charge) is 55.677 MPH, which nears highway speeds.
He could finish a marathon in a little over half an hour at a "brisk pace". He could get a speeding ticket for jogging down your average city road (though what cop is really going to have the balls pull over a velociraptor doing 55mph?). He could get from New York to LA in under a little over 50 hours, on foot. All this for a small, 28 level, investment. :P
My bad. Didn't realise Monk speed was an enhancment bonus. Also the sprint rage ability requires barbarian 4 and taking certain arcane heritages, such as efreeti will work better than fleet.