Making all my feats count with the Archaeologist

[Revan]

I've got a character creation session upcoming for Rise of the Runelords, and the character I'm most leaning towards is an Archaeologist Bard, primarily focused on using a whip to inflict combat maneuvers on enemies from a safe distance away. But first I've got to figure out how to allocate my pretty starkly limited feats. Lingering Performance is a must to really get maximum mileage out of Archaeologist's Luck. I need to take the Whip Mastery line at least to the second feat, which will require Weapon Focus to qualify. Improved and Greater Disarm and Trip are four feats necessary to keep my CMB up to snuff, and further require Combat Expertise for a prerequisite. And Skill Focus (Disable Device) would be awfully nice to make up for the lack of it being an actual class skill. Any advice would be most welcome.

For reference, it's a 20 point buy game. I'm currently thinking a human with a point spread something like

Str: 14+2=16
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 14
Wis: 8
Cha 14

[Pupsocket]

Word of advice, tripping is not going to work through most of the AP.

[Halfling Barbarian]

Since all bards get proficiency in the whip, I'd suggest a detective bard, and keep the whip as a secondary option. It'll work early on, but later you want the skill monkey, rougish, and performance stuff.

[Revan]

I am completely settled on the Archaeologist bard. Please do not suggest other classes or archetypes. I know what I want to build, so please help me optimize that. If you insist on telling me not to pursue the whip, suggest an alternate line of feats that give me something stylish to pull off in combat to take advantage of the constant bonuses I am giving myself.

[Rycaut]

An option to consider might be a dip into fighter (specifically Lore Warden). If you do so for two levels you will get combat expertise for free along with two bonus combat feats. If you add a third you would also get a static bonus on all CMB and CMD.

I would also encourage you to have a backup to the whip at least for lower levels but especially for those opponents against whom the whip isn't viable. If you go the weapon finesse route (allowing you to concentrate on DEX over STR) though it adds another feat it might allow you to focus your stats on just DEX and CHA with some attention to CON and INT (for skills) and don't dump WIS too much.

The whip is a very feat intensive weapon to focus on but it offers some really nice features as well. If you do multiclass you will want to do a level of bard (at least) before going lore warden so you can use your fighter bonus feats on whip feats. I'd probably suggest going fighter for level 2 and 3 (so you can also use your level 3 feat for improved disarm after getting combat expertise for free).

Alternatively don't forget that as an archaeologist you will be getting rogue talents every 4 levels - look at using these to pick up weapon finesse and at least one combat feat (and after level 12 you can also pick up any one feat).

Your class bonus to disable device should make up for not having disable device as a class skill and you will get Trapfinding (basically and actually better than many rogues) after level 6 when you will also be able to take 10 on disable device checks).

Have fun!

[GarnathFrostmantle]

Lingering Performance - Good catch on that one. I overlooked "Archaeologist's luck is treated as bardic performance for the purposes of feats, abilities, effects, and the like that affect bardic performance." on the SRD and in the book.

Man that would have been a game changer for me.

[Silbeg]

I would agree about going with the Weapon Finesse... and dropping your Strength. In fact, I'd go with CHA over STR as your racial bonus (more typical for a Bard, at least).

I'd be hesitant to drop your WIS to below 10... remember that Perception is a WIS based skill, and one you'll likely want to maximize.

With a 20 pt build, you could easily go:
STR: 12 DEX: 14 CON: 12 INT: 14 WIS: 10 CHA: 14+2

That would leave you 1 point to add to STR (for more carrying capacity) or CON (to possibly add your level 4 attribute bonus to in order to increase HP and Fort saves).

I usually hesitate to multiclass in Pathfinder, I do think that Ryacut's suggestion would be decent. I'd probably only do 2 levels, probably go Bard, Fighter, Fighter, and then finish all Bard.

At 3rd, as a human, you could have the following feats:
Lingering Performance (1)
Weapon Finesse (human)
Weapon Focus (whip) (Fighter 1)
Whip Mastery (Fighter 2)
Combat Expertise (Lore Warden 2)
Skill Focus (Disable Device) CL3

Just an idea.

[Rycaut]

I'd suggest either improved disarm or serpent's lash for your 3rd level feat over skill focus disable device but that's my personal preference. (Serpents lash is from a softcover book the rival guide but if your DM allows it would be a great feat for this build - kinda a cleave for whips doing disarms or trips against multiple opponents)

(I'd look for a trait that might give you disable device as a class skill instead)

I would also probably suggest going with at least one odd stat instead of a completely event set of stats. (A 13 int for example would give you 2 points to put someplace else - STR perhaps to help your carrying capacity and damage until you get an agile whip. And wouldn't hurt your skills all that much as you will get the skill ranks at 4th or 8th level assuming you put a point into INT at one of those levels)

[OutsiderSubtype]

The way to make best use of a static bonus like Archaeologist's Luck is to increase the number of times you use it. That means making more rolls = more full attacks = archery. That's probably the most optimal way to go.

If that's not stylish enough for you consider the Dazzling Display, Cornugon Smash, Shatter Defenses group of feats since Luck adds to your Intimidate rolls too.

I just don't see the value in spending all these feats on the whip to be maybe almost as effective as someone using a real weapon. I don't think investing heavily in combat maneuvers is a good idea in an AP where:

Spoiler:

you're going to be fighting a lot of large creatures like ogres

I don't think that's much of a spoiler since it's in all the marketing blurbs for that AP.

[Joana]

Rycaut wrote:

(I'd look for a trait that might give you disable device as a class skill instead)

I recently made an archaeologist bard, and there are only 4 traits, iirc, that give Disable Device as a class skill. One requires you to worship an evil god, and two require you either to be a gnome or worship a gnome deity. The most accessible is Vagabond Child (Urban).

[Rycaut]

There are also some Religious traits that can add disable device (Wisdom of the Flesh but that also gives WIS not Dex to a physical skill)

I don't have the rise of the Runelords campaign players guide in front of me but is there a campaign trait in there?

[Krass Kargoth]

You can worship Brigh, the goddess of innovation and get Disable Device as a class skill through a trait she gives.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/religion-traits/nimble-fingers-keen-mind-bri gh

Brigh is neutral and pretty cool.

I'll also have to chime in with Rycaut and say that archery is 'better'. If you insist on going the CMB route, why not go for Dirty Trick? This will let you apply a slew of conditions on the enemy, although it isn't all that meaningful until you get BAB 6 and Greater Dirty Trick. It is probably better to use a scorpion whip since it deals lethal damage.

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/whip- scorpion

If you go for the whip, do one of two things: hit stuff for damage or assist teammates for a juicy +2 to hit or AC. Arcane Strike, Archaeologist's Luck and possibly Power Attack and other buffs/feats will give you a respectable amount of damage. All this while you get to stay out of combat.

[Dilvias]

You can still try maneuvers even if you don't have the improved version, especially since you are using a whip and are standing 15' away to avoid the attack of opportunity. So the improved versions only give +2 in most circumstances. Since it costs 2 feats to get it, I'd skip it, and use your feats for other things.

The earliest you can get whip mastery without changing classes is 4th. (Weapon focus at 3, rogue talent - combat trick: whip mastery).

Arcane strike is nice, but will interfere with your luck (both are swift actions). Lingering performance will help here. I'm not sure if Arcane strike allows you to bypass the limitations of using a whip without whip mastery (allowing you to hurt enemies in armor or with natural armor). If it does, pick it up at first level. Use it whenever you don't use your luck.

My suggestion:
Str 16, dex 14, con 12, int 13, wis 10 cha 14
Feats
1st: Lingering performance, skill focus (disable device) from focused study racial trait or arcane strike
3rd: Weapon focus:whip
4th: whip mastery
5th: arcane strike if you didn't take it at first
7th: Improved Whip Mastery

Traits: vagabond child, adopted (Halfling - helpful)

[Rycaut]

I wouldn't recommend a Scorpion Whip because since it is an Exotic weapon you would need proficiency. Whip Mastery will make your whip deal lethal damage. (and also deal damage to opponents in armor or with natural armor over +3 that a usual whip wouldn't damage at all).

Dirty Trick is an excellent route to consider - though it will depend on your DM whether he will allow you to do Dirty Tricks with the whip (and range).

Also remember that you don't threaten with a whip so can't take attacks of opportunity with it - it may be worth getting a spiked gauntlet or something else like that so you can threaten, provide flanks and have an option if you were to be disarmed.

(Power Attack would require you to have a STR of 13 and as a non-full BAB class I would be wary of penalties to hit - though Archaeologist's Luck and taking a few levels of Fighter would help with that to a limited degree).

If you do go Dirty Route look into the rather amazing Burglar's Buckler - it is a +1 buckler that also gives you a +2 bonus to CMB for Dirty Tricks (and to CMD) and once per day can transform into any tool you need including thieves tools - offers a lot of opportunities for creativity besides a lot of mechanical advantages.

If you do go the Dirty Trick route you definitely will want to get Greater Dirty Trick. If you decide to go that way I would probably suggest at least a 3rd level of Fighter (Lore Warden) for the amazing typeless bonus to CMB/CMD and I'd consider even a 4th level for the BAB boost and bonus feat (if you time this well it could be when you get Greater Dirty Trick - at Character level 7 if you were to be a Bard 3/ Fighter 4.

That would be a very melee focused character - with limited spell casting and delayed trapfinding (since it takes level 6 as an Archaeologist to get it).

Also if you take Weapon Finesse as your fighter first level feat but don't take any feats that require it (like Serpent's Lash) if you take a 4th level of fighter you should at least consider retraining that feat at fighter level 4 (so perhaps picking up both greater Dirty trick and another improved combat maneuver) then taking Rogue Talent - Finesse Fighter for your first Rogue Talent at Archaeologist level 4 whenever you reach that.

Or If you do a stat build with a STR of 12 or 13 and a DEX of 14 or 15 you might consider delaying weapon finesse until you hit that 4th level of archaeologist and may by then have a DEX of 16 or 18 in favor of another feat that would be useful at a low level - Toughness would be one obvious yet boring one, improved initiative would be another. (you can't accelerate the taking of Whip Mastery due to the BAB of +2 requirement for that) or you could take a skill focus or another bard related feat (Extra Performance for example might well be worth considering especially if you multiclass).

If you do plan on going the Skill Focus route and plan on being a human then you really should give serious consideration to the Focused Study human alternative racial ability - which swaps out the usual human bonus feat for THREE bonus skill focuses (one at 1st level, another at 8th level and the third at 16th).

There are also a bunch of really pretty good Human only feats (mostly from the Advanced Race Guide) that would be worth looking at - the feats that are around Luck/Surge of Success might be thematic to this build. Martial Versatility (if you go to Fighter 4) is nifty for getting the benefit of a feat for a specific weapon (say Weapon Focus or Weapon Specialization!) with every weapon in that weapon type - whips being consider Flails for purposes of Weapon Training.

[Jack Rift]

I am running this AP as well, I would be weary of maneuver focused build as well. The giants would laugh and smash your bard into paste. But using over all the whip (scorpion for real damage) is not a bad weapon against med/small enemies. My advice is just don't over focus, pick up some range weapon abilities. Best of luck.

[Revan]

I'd actually originally conceived him with Weapon Finesse, but was looking at the strength route as a way of cutting out a feat. I'd probably prefer quicker over stronger, thematically, though. As for Wisdom, Will's a good save for Bards, and Archaeologists get a scaling bonus to all Perception checks, so I think I can afford a -1 in Wisdom.

Sounds like I can probably get away with using a whip for the occasional trick at early levels without investing in it, while building into something else for my main combat style. Maybe I could take Weapon Finesse at 1st level, disarm and trip at range with the whip, and have a short sword or rapier in the other hand to engage foes who get close, and then build archery thereafter, to become more and more prominent as we encounter things where trip and disarm aren't much use...

[Krass Kargoth]

Anyone who is proficient with the whip can use the scorpion whip. So, no, he doesn't need a feat for it. Bards are starved for feats, so do not pump dex over str. Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers is a trap.

Arcane Strike and Power Attack plus Archaeologists Luck will give you quite a bit of damage, although you might need some to hit buffs. A bless and prayer would help a lot, obviously and eventually you can run around with heroism.

The easier path is to go for a bow, but I think you'll do just fine with a damage-based scorpion whip approach. You're the trapfinder and most likely party face. This means that you're not the one who has to carry the groups weight in combat. Being able to throw out buffs, the occassional debuff and some damage is good enough.

Say lvl1 with 16str -> +3 and 1D4+3. Arcane Strike and Luck -> +4 and 1D4+5. Luck and Arcane Strike scale with level and if you feel your to hit can take it (best judged during actual play) you can always pick up Power Attack. You can wear a buckler to keep your off-hand free while still getting some AC from it.

If you go Weapon Finesse, you won't have the feats to go for archery as a bard. Human would let you pick up Arcane Strike and Lingering Performance at level 1. You can be the judge whether the whip works and if it doesn't, pick up archery feats as you go and phase out the whip.