Goblin Squad Member
|
I'm interested to know more of GW's plans regarding activities that fall outside what's already been discussed.
Combat, whether it be PVE or PVP is a given and is a staple of MMO's.
So to is Crafting, and it's attached games of Economics.
Nation building is an announced element also, though a little further down the track.
What I'm thinking of is a little more esoteric, and could I guess, in parts be accused of falling into Themepark gameplay elements. To which I would counter yes they could be, but it would depend how there were implemented.
This fourth category is one I feel has been traditionally somewhat overlooked in MMO's, although some have had a few elements thereof, but none had all. I'll call it 'adventuring' elements and see what you think.
These elements are focused on giving players things to do outside of combat and crafting. So far I have: Exploration and Map Making, Thievery and traps, Magical Research, Religious Duties, Cultural Developments and Challenges of Strength.
Let me break them down further :
Exploration and Map Making - For players who choose to specialise in the outdoors and associated skills. It's difficult to really refelect how this works in a game unless you can in some way restrict players visibilty of the whole world, allow for a very real possibility of getting lost. It could be refelected by penalties to actions (or bonuse to the outdoorsman, the effect is the same) for operating in wild country. Perhaps monsters have smaller aggro radiuses to the woodsman, perhaps archery penalties are decreased, and the ability to actually create maps of your travels would all be ways of giving some advantage to our outdoor friendly friends and maybe lead to their discovery of hidden glens and crevices atht others missed. (This is also something that could be applicable to streetwise cityfolk in crowded streets and some dwarves in the darker dungeons of the River Kingdoms.)
Thievery and Traps - For the stealthier brethren perhaps there is just that little bit more to be found than the average adventurer can find. A keen eye, some quick wits and nimble fingers can access things no-one else can. This can be applicable in almost any situation. Hidden rooms unnearthed, dastardly traps avoided, and acrobatic skills emply to reach places others cannot. Essentially this looks at enabling ways for the Bards and Rogue inclined builds to have more to do than just be "dps and buffing".
Magical Research - For the more mystically inclined, perhaps there are certain things that cannot be discovered just by adventuring. Perhaps some arcane knowledge can only be unlocked through diligent experimentation and research. Golems built, spell effects discovered, strange portals opened to other planes of existence where all kinds of unique knowledge can be found. This looks to give magic inclined players some interesting ways to uncover lost knowledge. Unlocking gateways, finding lost tomes tucked away in old libraries, understanding more about that weird tube you just found in the liches lair.
Religious Duties - For the faithful, the Gods require many things to be raised in their estimation. Converting the common folk, uncovering lost religious artifacts, guarding places of great sanctity, confronting and purging the enemies of the other faiths. While the tenets of every being worshipped is different, all require certain acts be performed to ensure the ongoing spreading of the word. The paladin/cleric/monk/druid styles can all be represented here, giving them duties they can choose to perform outside of the hack'n'slash healbot roles we're all used to.
Cultural Developments - For the more artistically inclined, perhaps the populace is in need of culture. Songs can be written, works of art made, great deeds turned into epic odes, new interpretations, forms and styles are always waiting to be found. Perhaps a noble adventurer could yet uncover the next great wave of inspiration? Bard types especially would like this, and it can give players a very different and unusual way to contribute to the MMO.
Challenges of Strength - For the warrior/barbarian combat is mostly all, but the call of the great Black Knight/Dragon/Troll that rampages through the land can land to greater renown, and maybe a unique fighting talent or two learned in the process.
So as you can see I'm looking at ways of making progression a little more spicey and unpredicatble.
They key as I see it to making this work, is an element of randomality, otherwise it will be all over "GettingeverythinginPathfinderin30days.com" shortly after each element is located. That's a fair bit of work and I can see Ryan and his fellows declaring 'Southraven, you're Mad!' Which is true. However I'm still interested to know your thoughts on how feasible this might be, and if any of it actually interested you or is something you might like to see. Or can you think of any more?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Agree, if settlements form up then players will want their own in-game cultural activities and expression reflected once security is achieved.
For eg the thievery skill might be useful for passing-by another settlement that lets you in under the guise of some trade, whereupon the thief finds some buildings to ransack without getting caught both or either for personal profit or for small damages to another settlement?
The map, particularly like the idea of changing aggro range for skilled bushcraft and things on the map becoming apparent/appearing with more skill.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Table Top Role Playing
At first I thought you were suggesting that our characters in PFO could play a mini game of PnP RPG.
It would be interesting but difficult to pull off.
I'd love to see options for magical research later on in the game's run. Maybe even as something to do with those capstone abilities--that way, no two capstone characters would be quite alike even if they're from the same class.
I'm also extremely interested in any "religious duties" that allow me to further the druidic cause.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I find myself wondering what it is we expect GW to do regarding these'skillsets. Many shouild probably be simply a matter of roleplay. Some, for sure, would require a disinterested and trustworthy third party, such as the stock/commodities markets, thievery and traps, and spell research as examples. But some seem they should arise out of playacting, such as storycrafting.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
These elements are the reason why there's still a difference between table-top roleplaying (physical or virtual) and MMOs. In a tabletop game, your party's fighter can start dating the barmaid (or any other NPC). In a non-MMO computer RPG, the fighter can flirt with specific NPCs, if the developers have coded those interactions into the conversation tree for those NPCs. In a straight-forward themepark MMO, your character can fall in love with an NPC during your instanced quest line, but so can everyone else's character (hope you're not the jealous type).
Having a single NPC flirt with a single character, but retain a business relationship with all other PCs, requires a live GM. In a tabletop game, that's the default. In an MMO, that's expensive.
In the obligatory Pathfinder-EVE cross-reference, there was someone at CCP who was dribbling out information to players about a mysterious race (the Sleepers). The process involved one time events and relatively-direct player/CCP interaction. When that CCP staffer stopped updating the search, the players were left without any source of new information.
In some games (cough GW2 cough), the one-time nature of the Sleeper-related events would have stirred up trouble from those who weren't online when they happened. In EVE, where many players are too busy killing each other to notice or care about a meta-plot, it worked (for as long as it lasted).
Essentially, what I'm getting at is the fact that non-repeatable actions, the kind that won't immediately show up on DoEverythingInPathfinder.com, require a live GM. Live GMs are an expensive luxury in an MMO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Regarding songs, there are already several people making songs about MMOs and posting them on Youtube. In-game, there are music systems like the one in LOTRO.
Getting lost was a very real possibility in the early days of MMOs. Some of the early game cartographers became quite famous, as they shared their painstakingly-created maps. Soon the developers realized that players were just going to share maps anyway, so they stopped hiding the big-picture lay of the land.
"Convert 10 heathens to the true faith" is very similar to "Collect 10 beetle eyes" from a backstage/mechanics perspective.
One potential solution: RP. Want to spread the word of your (In-Game) faith? Preach to players, not NPCs. You won't get game-mechanics credit for it, but that level of roleplaying isn't about game-mechanics rewards. Want to discover truly secret areas? Don't look them up online, and they'll be secret and surprising to you. Want to sing about your character's exploits? Join an RP-centered group and sing over Teamspeak or Mumble.
You can add elements to your gameplay that aren't coded by Goblinworks. For some levels of immersive roleplay, that may be the only way they ever happen in an MMO.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
...Essentially, what I'm getting at is the fact that non-repeatable actions, the kind that won't immediately show up on DoEverythingInPathfinder.com, require a live GM. Live GMs are an expensive luxury in an MMO.
Very true, but they do happen on occasion. I remember it in EQ and in LotRO, and in Dragonrealms they invaded the lands regularly (but that was text-based).
In PFO the developer already has a cast of players lined up to play minions for any such events they feel like putting on, ready and waiting to help, so possibly it will not be as rare as it is in other games. Expensive, yes I am sure of it, but not everything of value is measured in Canadian dollars.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
well one thing i hope is that PfO is RP friendly. if they can put in various systems, emotes, local chat, and encourage it, its not a stretch that people will RP.
Not only that but RP can be a main draw for some people. This holds true for games that require a long time to "cap". Its the reason i still play MUDS, as they are really the last place you can find good RP thats not at the tabletop.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
well one thing i hope is that PfO is RP friendly. if they can put in various systems, emotes, local chat, and encourage it, its not a stretch that people will RP.
Not only that but RP can be a main draw for some people. This holds true for games that require a long time to "cap". Its the reason i still play MUDS, as they are really the last place you can find good RP thats not at the tabletop.
Macro scripting of emotes is very important for this. Even WOW had this, and there is no excuse for PFO not to. I want the full combo for this:
Emote + Text "Quote" + Emote = Hot Key that could then be placed in a social interaction tray.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Brings me bac to the ye Olde Gypsy Wagon Train.....a cirsuc type atmosphere with showmen, musicians and actors. I would love to see a troupe put on some shows.....Shakespeare might be a little heavy, but it might be doable if the emotes are available. That'd be quite a sight to see.
I have mentioned minstrels before. They are very well done on LotRO....music is part of the story, and a class on its own. Music, singing and storytelling.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
In UO, I knew a player who role-played a Dwarf. He had every line of several Tolkien songs macroed so that when we went walking together in caravans and such, he didn't have to type while directing his character - he would just hit each key and bring up a whole verse. He would walk along with the troupe and sing line after line of the song. It was pretty cool and something we looked forward to seeing whenever he was traveling with us.
To the OP, Ryan has already expressed an interest in a mapping system. I think limiting what we see until we either have access to a map providing more or go there ourselves would be a great feature.
I do see the value of some more "theme park" style planted items/goods/novelties, such as randomly occurring containers here and there that need to have their traps disarmed and their locks picked to access the goodies inside. I don't think something like that would be too demanding on the system, but again, as I often point out, I'm not a designer.
As others have replied, another big "what else is there to do" is role-play. We are the content and we, if imaginative and creative enough, will design meaningful, entertaining, even engrossing things to do with one another. I don't mean creating content such as player created dungeons (though that's potentially fun as well)...I mean player made plots and story-arcs, player made events (just for your friends or community wide), etc.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I'd be interested to see them add games into the MMO. Tabletop RPGs were humorously suggested above, but what about other games?
Pathfinder has decks of cards, dice, I don't think it'd be too hard to make betting chips or something. Could we somehow have a casino somewhere? It would probably have to be in a big city like Absolam or something, but it could work.
And going even further, what about sports? I can't remember the name of the sport, but I kinda remember Andoran having some kind of sport that's kinda like baseball. Would we ever be able to play that?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would love to see a Harrow mechanic involved in the game, somehow! I already use the deck for all of my games - at the start of each session, each player draws a card that can be used for a 1-time floating +2 bonus on any roll/check/what-have-you thematically tied to the card.
PCs with the appropriate skill (or even NPCs) might be able to provide minor buffs with a Harrow drawing. Placed on an appropriate cooldown, it could add an interesting element to the game. Heck, you could even have rare cards mixed in with treasure that provide unusual effects for everything from swinging a sword to crafting a vase to planting a field.
Of course, not all Harrow readings need be tied to providing buffs. We should totally have them just for RP fun, too.
You know, for added mystery, you might not even know if a drawing is providing a buff or not . . . sure, there's no icon saying that Varisian fortune teller gave you a bonus on your Fortitude saves, but after walking through that den of ghouls without being paralyzed, you can't say for sure that the reading didn't help. Better to be safe than sorry and make sure you get another reading before the next adventure!
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I would love to see a Harrow mechanic involved in the game, somehow! I already use the deck for all of my games - at the start of each session, each player draws a card that can be used for a 1-time floating +2 bonus on any roll/check/what-have-you thematically tied to the card.
PCs with the appropriate skill (or even NPCs) might be able to provide minor buffs with a Harrow drawing. Placed on an appropriate cooldown, it could add an interesting element to the game. Heck, you could even have rare cards mixed in with treasure that provide unusual effects for everything from swinging a sword to crafting a vase to planting a field.
Of course, not all Harrow readings need be tied to providing buffs. We should totally have them just for RP fun, too.
You know, for added mystery, you might not even know if a drawing is providing a buff or not . . . sure, there's no icon saying that Varisian fortune teller gave you a bonus on your Fortitude saves, but after walking through that den of ghouls without being paralyzed, you can't say for sure that the reading didn't help. Better to be safe than sorry and make sure you get another reading before the next adventure!
Kinda like this, but think should have -2 possibilities as well, always that chance of pulling the Death card.....
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
These elements are the reason why there's still a difference between table-top roleplaying (physical or virtual) and MMOs. In a tabletop game, your party's fighter can start dating the barmaid (or any other NPC). In a non-MMO computer RPG, the fighter can flirt with specific NPCs, if the developers have coded those interactions into the conversation tree for those NPCs. In a straight-forward themepark MMO, your character can fall in love with an NPC during your instanced quest line, but so can everyone else's character (hope you're not the jealous type).-snip-
Essentially, what I'm getting at is the fact that non-repeatable actions, the kind that won't immediately show up on DoEverythingInPathfinder.com, require a live GM. Live GMs are an expensive luxury in an MMO.
The TRPG is better at stories than the MMORPG? But eg calculations, the game aspect has more scope with the help of the computer. So some form of human input is needed still. I hope as Being says, the "Monster Cast" + GM/GW led-events can come into play! Some trusted players would be at home directing and manipulating their hordes of escalation mobs... IC following the "script" provided by GW/GM?
Getting lost was a very real possibility in the early days of MMOs. Some of the early game cartographers became quite famous, as they shared their painstakingly-created maps. Soon the developers realized that players were just going to share maps anyway, so they stopped hiding the big-picture lay of the land.
"Convert 10 heathens to the true faith" is very similar to "Collect 10 beetle eyes" from a backstage/mechanics perspective.
One potential solution: RP. Want to spread the word of your (In-Game) faith? Preach to players, not NPCs. You won't get game-mechanics credit for it, but that level of roleplaying isn't about game-mechanics rewards. Want to discover truly secret areas? Don't look them up online, and they'll be secret and surprising to you. Want to sing about your character's exploits? Join an RP-centered group and sing over Teamspeak or Mumble.
You can add elements to your gameplay that aren't coded by Goblinworks. For some levels of immersive roleplay, that may be the only way they ever happen in an MMO.
These 2 points are potentially open to really interesting possibilities.
1. Map: If the map is broken down into the previous "super-hexes" which are not divided into the 7 "sub-hexes" so each hex is a more discrete unit, this could come into play with the possibly some aspects of the landscape being procedural? Ie trees and hills might shift and change when reloaded? This is to keep the map dynamic not static ie going into the wilds is always a part exploration thing even if most of the hex does not change? Add this to dynamic change in where resources can be collected and where dungeons etc can be found, seems more exciting than the landscape always being exactly the same? It's simulating the difference between wilderness/unknown (unless you're a map maker gives advantages) and settled/known? These changes could change over a timer of perhaps a week or so or such?
2. Religion: This is a great idea: Different churches gaining power with followers and influencing the power of the gods -> Law of unintended consequences?
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
Stockvillain and Wiseman of the Woods - A mysterious process that sometimes helps the PCs, occasionally hurts them, but often does nothing would be very cool, and it would definitely reinforce player superstitions regarding the random number generator.
AvenaOats - Procedurally generated wilderness subhexes would keep the game fresh for the MMO cartographers of the world. They often sweep through a new game in the early days, find all the nooks and crannies, then move on to the next game until an expansion brings them back. With wilderness subhexes changing every week, the map-makers would always have something to explore.
Having the power of each god rise and fall with their number of worshipers would be neat. It would definitely provide incentive for clerics to proselytize.
|
Goblin Squad Member
|
I mean some of the map elements such as tree clumps/forest (and possibly hills/rocks etc?) could be redistributed periodically, even if major features remain constant. I wonder how feasible/realistic it would be to add this to the maps. I think it could be a great addition if possible to keep the scenery and possibly more pertinent map features interesting. Ie each expedition is interesting.
Interesting about those professional cartographers.. honing their skills on each new game. What next?!