Decius, when you get a chance, give us a brief on what he covered, any memorable stuff or things you haven't heard about PFO :D
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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The biggest expense in most MMO projects is art. Art requires a really large team of really highly trained expert people to develop it. In a theme park game... A ton of art assets have to be ready for all of the experiences that players have. But in a sandbox game...you can produce a smaller amount of art assets and still generate a fractal space of experience because players interact with others to create the content.
there's no doubt in my mind that eve is a harbinger of an era of new development... People interacting with people is a more compelling experience than people interacting with a robot. When eve came out it was a very basic experience: mine rocks and shoot each othe, but they wrapped that basic game mechanic in a tremendous social experience. The most important elelement in eve is the corporation. In order to do anything in eve, you really need to be a part of an effectively organized corporation. It's not sufficient to just get some guys who all agree to have the same name tag floating over their heads, you all have to do things... Be accountable to each other, pay attention to the calendar, it's a whole realm of social interaction that becomes really compelling, and that's the reason why {eve} has grown year over year... And they continue to add players... And that's kind of the path to me with Goblinworks and Pathfinder Online, give them the very small very sparse games with an intense focus on player interaction and other players and hope that we will experience the same trend line. I wouldn't claim the same numbers, but I'd like to have the graph look the same. I think that when you experience that the first time, especially if you are a person who has players MMOs as a single player experience that has other people in the world with you, you will find it to be transformative. Human beings are social creatures and we are hard wired by evolution to want to interact with each other and to gain a sense of satisfaction from that.
So in order to have a truly compelling online gaming experience that moves the industry forward, you have to do all the same things you would have to do in order to successfully organize a tabletop game?
Who'd have thought?
Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan is hitting the nail on the head with that one. The absolute key to immersion and continuing investment in any MMO is the social tools available through a Guild/Company/Corporation.
If I find a group of like-minded people and get into what I am doing, I am far more likely to stick around.
Its why GW2 kind of failed for me. It's a nice game, but nothing ever really compelled me to interact with others. I could have forced the issue and been more social myself, but it just never really seemed necessary. So I hit max level, ran out of immediate things to do, and quit.
If Pathfinder should aim to do anything, it is to continuously give players reasons to talk to each other. And it seems they are taking this path and it pleases me greatly.
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Goblin Squad Member
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There is a whole generation of MMO players who have grown up knowing nothing of games like Ultima Online. They are used to the game providing all the entertainment, rather than the players in the game. When I've met these younger players in new games such as WoW, Rift, and GW2 and mentioned the kinds of player created content we used to generate, they think it all sounds very cool, but understandably, have no clue that such a thing could be done in an MMO, since the MMO's they are used to provide no tools or incentives for such to take place.
Hopefully PFO will provide us old dogs the opportunity to teach the younger ones some past, but very fun, old tricks.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Hmm, here's the summary anyway: Sounds like it must have been very very interesting in full:
The Future of Playing a Role in Videogame RPGs
At the dawn of the computer age, roleplaying games used text as the only way for a player to inhabit fantastic worlds. Players could fill in the gaps with their imagination, and this allowed early CRPGs to create a greater illusion of player choice by acting in the world. As computer graphics technology increased, developers could show more visuals to the player, and achievements in voice acting allowed for characters to truly come to life. But somehow, all the technical doodads restricted the player’s input because there are only so many permutations a game designer can cover. Now that technology has progressed even further, characters in games like Skyrim or the many MMOs out there should feel open to all kinds of player interactions, but NPC responses still come out bland and repetitive. Why can’t present games allow us to feel like we are playing in a vibrant, living world where our input has real impact on the story? When will games let us choose more than two or three options when talking to an NPC? This discussion between developers of today’s RPGs and MMOs will reveal what the next generation of computer role-playing games has in store.
PANELISTS:
Greg Tito [Senior Editor, The Escapist], Dave Georgeson [Sony Online Entertainment], Mike Laidlaw [BioWare], Ryan Dancey [Pathfinder Online]
Massively have Dave Georgeson's bit up, but it's a great talk on talking about nothing: EQ:N talked about without describing anything in the game. Waste of time.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Its why GW2 kind of failed for me. It's a nice game, but nothing ever really compelled me to interact with others. I could have forced the issue and been more social myself, but it just never really seemed necessary. So I hit max level, ran out of immediate things to do, and quit.
A game called Guild Wars, yet I have never played an MMO that had less reasons to be in a guild. Pretty game, I leveled 1-80 solo and then uninstalled.
Hmm, here's the summary anyway: Sounds like it must have been very very interesting in full:
Massively have Dave Georgeson's bit up, but it's a great talk on talking about nothing: EQ:N talked about without describing anything in the game. Waste of time.The Future of Playing a Role in Videogame RPGs
At the dawn of the computer age, roleplaying games used text as the only way for a player to inhabit fantastic worlds. Players could fill in the gaps with their imagination, and this allowed early CRPGs to create a greater illusion of player choice by acting in the world. As computer graphics technology increased, developers could show more visuals to the player, and achievements in voice acting allowed for characters to truly come to life. But somehow, all the technical doodads restricted the player’s input because there are only so many permutations a game designer can cover. Now that technology has progressed even further, characters in games like Skyrim or the many MMOs out there should feel open to all kinds of player interactions, but NPC responses still come out bland and repetitive. Why can’t present games allow us to feel like we are playing in a vibrant, living world where our input has real impact on the story? When will games let us choose more than two or three options when talking to an NPC? This discussion between developers of today’s RPGs and MMOs will reveal what the next generation of computer role-playing games has in store.
PANELISTS:
Greg Tito [Senior Editor, The Escapist], Dave Georgeson [Sony Online Entertainment], Mike Laidlaw [BioWare], Ryan Dancey [Pathfinder Online]
Your right, he talked a lot about nothing much didn't he? I found this quote reminded me of a game though <g>
When the players can participate along with the developers in creating the game, the developers can continue making professional content
Sounds familiar doesn't it? :p
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Goblin Squad Member
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A game called Guild Wars, yet I have never played an MMO that had less reasons to be in a guild. Pretty game, I leveled 1-80 solo and then uninstalled.
It is very beautiful and artsy, but I hit level 78, crafted my way to 80 and found all characters were the same. So homogenized it made the trip to 80 meaningless. Have not uninstalled yet, but stopped as soon as I dinged. (There is value in the trinity.)
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Goblin Squad Member
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That panel is pretty amazing. You essentially have the Conventional Wisdom of the MMO industry on display: Player created content, sandbox gaming, crowdforging.
I'm glad we're ahead of this curve, not behind it.
Lol, I just love back-handed praise.....
"These are some of the greatest minds in the industry, and we are ahead of them" (paraphrased)
I agree completely that you are ahead of the curve and it is incredibly smart to go back to the sand box model and innovate it to be a model for the future.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I finally watched the whole video, and they did not even have the decency to ask one question to Ryan.
Why was that guy from GW2 there? His input was almost completely unneccessary and GW2 is one of the least forward looking games on the market.
The only game that was mentioned, other than PFO, was Star Citizen. He was the only one that seemd to get sand box and classeless game play.
They also did not mention EVE Online once! Or did I miss such a fleating mention?
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Goblin Squad Member
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I finally watched the whole video, and they did not even have the decency to ask one question to Ryan.
Ryan in scary in real life. Everyone is afraid to engage in discussions with him.
Why was that guy from GW2 there? His input was almost completely unneccessary and GW2 is one of the least forward looking games on the market.
I respectfully disagree. GW2 may be boring on the Themepark -> Sandbox scale but they have made very neat advancements in raw game mechanics like the very relevant public Quest escalation. ( granted it's limited in the Themepark frame)
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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That video is not of the panel that Ryan was on... there was someone there with an actual camera rig who said he was from the Escapist (http://www.escapistmagazine.com/), but I can't find it on their website. I should have mine uploaded by the end of the day; hopefully it will have good enough audio quality.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I was not asked to be on the MMO panel. Frankly that lineup was plenty awesome! I was happy to watch from the audience!
You are being too modest, but I'll say what you perhaps have too much class to say. Half of that panel were still stuck in the theme park, class system and did not fully buy into a real sand box MMO. I would bet that the next MMO most of them make will still be a Theme Park MMO.
The developer of Star Citizen seemed to get it the most. I will definitely check out his project.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Agreed. And the GW2 guy just sort of pissed me off. Particularly his (imo) stupid answer to the 1 char having multiple classes answer. He really put his foot in his mouth, and it looked like the star citizen and EQ next guys really wanted to tell him so. Ive never seen someone so proud of his answer while completely missing the point.
You limit players to 1 class per char so they can better RP........ really? If he would have at least said it was ALL about ballance I would accept it. I would disagree, but its not like you cant balance it even for PvP. But that answer would have been more acceptable than "dur..... so you can RP".
I know Im kinda being a d@#k about it, but come on. If you seriously think limiting character progression and choice, and illiminating deeper immersion and character bonding and having to repeat goals for each character is better for RPing, then let me have some of whatever it is you are smoking bro. LOL. Classless systems and having multiple classes with 1 character will always be superior for RP. Thats not to say you cant RP with alts. No the point is that yes I can be a warrior, but why cant my same character also be a cleric or mage. I know an accountant who is also a very good artist. I know a butcher who plays senior league baseball. I know a Carpenter who can play bagpipes and is also a blackbelt.
I better stop, its too late at night to get on a soapbox.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Well thats kinda sad that Roberts was on the MMO panel. Star Citizen isnt even an MMO... Its going to be more like NWN, player servers, player modding, a Campaign, they will have a base server up for people to play on but eh...
Its not that the guy hasnt made great games, its just... if he was on the Kickstarter panel then fine, but the MMO panel?
http://www.robertsspaceindustries.com/star-citizen-faq/
Question #5
I completely agree with the classless game system. Thats one of the reasons I got into Eve so much. Its also why my game group still played D6 Star Wars when the D20 system came out... that and West End Games created an awesome universe.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The mmo panel have talented people lined-up but I always get the impression they are dancing around each other, all public face.
Well, to be fair, dancing people generally dance around one another. Otherwise they step on toes, knock one another down... it can lead to a terrible mess.
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Goblin Squad Member
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... It's not sufficient to just get some guys who all agree to have the same name tag floating over their heads, you all have to do things... Be accountable to each other, pay attention to the calendar, it's a whole realm of social interaction that becomes really compelling...
and that social interaction is via text.
Roleplaying was seperated from the MMO by making games too fast and twitchy to allow someone to type out a sentence between sword swings. EQ ( old EQ ) had this right. You could tank an exp group and keep multiple conversations going. People could roleplay and still be at the top in terms of performance in game. ( true story: I learned to type by playing EQ )
PFO seems to have it right, with the 6 second 'pulse'. There is no other way to put the R back in MMORPG than to give us TIME to roleplay while playing.
Hopefully, the future of roleplaying = PFO !
ps
yes EVE does give time, but it isn't fantasy, and that's the RP I wanna talk about ;p
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Goblin Squad Member
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What did you think of Ryan's presentation regarding the potential for AI?
"you" (pl.)?!
An interesting aside, and good news for single-players. But imo MMO = maximise all those brains behind PCs. As much human-driven as possible. If npc's and common people have more AI options for us to mess with that's equally good. Eg common people materialise in pfo with great ai options to mess with, or players controlling/influencing mobs: "Fly my beauties, fly! " is a pet favorite (some version of influence via escalations is a good start ie gaining influence/alliance with them) Or UGC in another guise of human-driven.
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I liked what Ryan said about, "the imagination happening in MUDS and now attempting to get to that level in mmorpgs iirc."
That panel is pretty amazing. You essentially have the Conventional Wisdom of the MMO industry on display: Player created content, sandbox gaming, crowdforging.
I'm glad we're ahead of this curve, not behind it.
So are we.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The slower, turn based (6 seconds), action that GW is planning for PFO is by far one if the more innovative ideas I have heard in an MMO for quite some time.
This will not only open it up for more role playing and other player interactions. But, more importantly it will allow for more tactical decisions in combat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The slower, turn based (6 seconds), action that GW is planning for PFO is by far one if the more innovative ideas I have heard in an MMO for quite some time.
This will not only open it up for more role playing and other player interactions. But, more importantly it will allow for more tactical decisions in combat.
Agreed completely.
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The slower, turn based (6 seconds), action that GW is planning for PFO is by far one if the more innovative ideas I have heard in an MMO for quite some time.
Innovative??
EQ1 used "ticks" and NWN1 and 2 used rounds of 6 seconds as well... Lots of games use segmented time systems, in fact. I suspect that PFO's time system will resemble Wakfu under the hood and will play like EQ1.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't claim the same numbers, but I'd like to have the graph look the same.
What I really like about GW and Ryan is this. I think that one of the best things is that Ryan and GW has a realistic outlook on what they want to accomplish with PfO. They are not talking about being a wow killer; they are not talking about getting millions of subs. They want to start off small and slowly grow to a comfortable population. Even then they arnt looking to have 800k people playing.
Thats whats strong about this team. They have realistic expectations, they know that something like this appeals to a niche market (i mean they said they arnt targeting casuals), and they are creating a game to fill that niche.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I wouldn't claim the same numbers, but I'd like to have the graph look the same.
What I really like about GW and Ryan is this. I think that one of the best things is that Ryan and GW has a realistic outlook on what they want to accomplish with PfO. They are not talking about being a wow killer; they are not talking about getting millions of subs. They want to start off small and slowly grow to a comfortable population. Even then they arnt looking to have 800k people playing.
Thats whats strong about this team. They have realistic expectations, they know that something like this appeals to a niche market (i mean they said they arnt targeting casuals), and they are creating a game to fill that niche.
This may sound so cheesy, it's possible to equate good design with good communication.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Thought this might interest people:
7 Role-Playing Games You Should Play on International TableTop Day
Even non-gamers have typically played at least one card or board game at some point in their life, but not everyone’s necessarily tried a role-playing game. And if you haven’t played any tabletop RPGs, well, why the heck not? International TableTop Day, which is tomorrow, is a good opportunity to get started. Go pick up an RPG sourcebook at your local game store or just download a PDF online. There’s tons of free RPGs out there. But here are 7 role-playing games you should really consider.
RPGs aren’t like any other game. Hell, it could be argued they’re not even games — you don’t really win or lose them, and you usually cooperate, not compete with, your fellow players. They’re rules systems that support imaginative storytelling, usually with polyhedron dice, honest to goodness pencils and paper, and plenty of math. Some games are rules-light, others are thick with mechanics.
From there, who knows where it’ll lead? Every game is different, depending on the system you use, which world it takes place in, who’s playing with you, where you’re meeting up to play, how many of you there are, and who will run it — if it has a GM, or game master. Many variables guarantee a totally unique experience.
RPGs are the ultimate interactive, social activity. I’ve had the distinct pleasure to introduce a bunch of people to RPGs — mostly Dungeons & Dragons — and it’s rewarding every time. I’ve taught them to kids, adults, and even the girlfriend who would one day become my wife.
The couple that role-plays together stays together. Just a tip. And it’s why I’m recommending a handful of RPGs to you right now.
Also The Escapist cast the panel also, if people missed Decius' link to this panel previously:
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Goblinworks Executive Founder
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Well thats kinda sad that Roberts was on the MMO panel. Star Citizen isnt even an MMO... Its going to be more like NWN, player servers, player modding, a Campaign, they will have a base server up for people to play on but eh...
It's not "the MMO panel", it's "The Future of Online Games Panel". Which is why Chris Roberts is there, as Star Citizen is primarily an online game.
