Unarmed strike and natural attacks


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

i am making a monk tiefling and i need to know if i can us the monk d6 damage for the natural attack damage of the tiefleng claws.... the master of many styles monk loses the ability to use flurry of blows and was going to use the 2 natural claws but didnt know if the new damage would apply since he is a monk


Exnay. Your claws will do their normal base damage no matter how good of a monk you are. You also can't do things like stunning fist or any ability that restricts you to an unarmed strike (ie. vicious stomp, snake style unarmed aoo, etc) unless you take Feral Combat Training (Claws). But they still won't scale with monk levels even with that feat.

Liberty's Edge

so they wont scale but you can use them with flurry of blows... makes no scence


Well, unarmed strikes are bludgeoning only. If you come across something with DR/Slash, at least at lower levels, slashing claw attacks might be better. Of course, in that case, a temple sword would be better than claws even. Generally speaking, unless it's a major natural attack like, something that gives you a 1d10 or some such, it isn't worth considering if you're also a Monk.

Grand Lodge

Look into the Feral Combat Training feat.

It will allow you to Flurry with the chosen natural attack.


balderdash wrote:
so they wont scale but you can use them with flurry of blows... makes no scence

Nope. Only the monk's unarmed strike can scale in damage. Honestly it would have made much more sense for monks to have some ability like weapon training than to hold onto the scaling unarmed damage, but this is the way that Paizo made the monk on the 3.5 legacy.

Liberty's Edge

My thing was to do natural attacks with the master of many styles with boar style and since it loses the flurry of blows and natural attack now being the only way to use boar style i didnt know if the damage would increase


Well, if Feral Combat training allows you to apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike" to your chosen natural attack, would that not allow you to apply your increased unarmed strike damage?


I think you could still do unarmed strikes (not FoB) and on top of that add your two calw attacks.


MacGurcules wrote:
Well, if Feral Combat training allows you to apply "effects that augment an unarmed strike" to your chosen natural attack, would that not allow you to apply your increased unarmed strike damage?

The damage increase isn't an 'effect' that augment unarmed strikes. It is the actual Unarmed Strike itself as per the monk class ability write up. At any level the damage is set by the table, not some effect that increases it beyond the normal base damage in the weapon table.


Agree with Skylancer, that's like arguing a +1 sword should enhance the dagger in your offhand.


You know, on second look, that might actually work. Remember, 'effect' isn't limited to "spell effects"; 'effect' can include even things like satisfying prerequisites. So maybe if you took FCT (Claws), the claws would also benefit from the "effect" of increasing your unarmed strike damage.

Liberty's Edge

i hope so cause that is the new build then


Kazaan wrote:
You know, on second look, that might actually work. Remember, 'effect' isn't limited to "spell effects"; 'effect' can include even things like satisfying prerequisites. So maybe if you took FCT (Claws), the claws would also benefit from the "effect" of increasing your unarmed strike damage.

You are correct, 'effects' aren't limited to 'spell effects' though there are limits to what that noun refers to (look up half races and interaction of racial traits/archtypes etc). An effect would take the normal base ability and adjust it in some way. The monk class ability defines unarmed strike for them.

Again the monks 'Unarmed strike' isn't an effect that upgrades the damage done of your IUS. It is a class ability that sets the damage done of the unarmed strike weapon. Nor is it something with IUS as a prerequisite. It isn't something that would be under the FCT 'umbrella' and passed on to the natural attack.

Liberty's Edge

But fct says that anything that affects an unarmed strike effects the natural attack...as well as effects that augment an unarmed strike... So the the monk unarmed strike is an ability that augments a monks unarmed strike is it not..so i am confused as to why it wont work


balderdash wrote:
So the the monk unarmed strike is an ability that augments a monks unarmed strike is it not..

This is taken wildly out of context, but:

If you're a monk and you're relying on a cestus to defeat your enemies, you are weak. A real martial artist doesn't need to armor his hands to achieve victory; his hands are armor and weapon without augmentation.

(Bold his, not mine)

This implies that the monk's increase to unarmed strike damage is not considered augmentation.

And, while it doesn't specifically mention this (other than via omission), the FCT FAQ implies that the point of the feat is to use the selected natural attack as if it were a monk weapon. "you can use it as one of your flurry of blows attacks, use it to deploy special attacks that require you to use a monk weapon, apply the effects of the natural weapon (such as a poisonous bite) for each flurry of blows attack, and so on."

I don't think the intent of Feral Combat Training is to cause natural weapon damage dice to scale any more than monk weapon (not unarmed) damage dice.


just wanted to point out that you could use a single unarmed attack (or more depending on BAB) and then use your natural weapons as a secondary attack. This does not require Feral Combat Training.

I t sould work the same way a monster could use a sword and a claw (secondary) beacuse monks unarmed attacked are considered manufactured weapons ... at least that is my take on it.

Liberty's Edge

So if i flurried 2 natural claws from tungue is it four attacks total 2 claws per flurry attack

Dark Archive

No. Natural weapons never get iterative attacks.


balderdash wrote:
So if i flurried 2 natural claws from tungue is it four attacks total 2 claws per flurry attack

If you have claws (two of them, one on each hand) and you're a monk that didn't give up flurry or unarmed strike, and you have Weapon Focus (claws) and you have Feral Combat Training (claws), then when you flurry you can make exactly the same number of attacks that you could if you were just using your unarmed strikes. The only difference is you can replace any or all of those flurry attacks with claw attacks.

So if you're a level 8 monk with those feats, you get four attacks when you use Flurry of Blows. You can make those four attacks with any combination of unarmed strikes, monk weapons, or claws.


balderdash wrote:
So if i flurried 2 natural claws from tungue is it four attacks total 2 claws per flurry attack

no, I'm referring to your normal attack using your normal BAB. Not using FoB, you can (like anyone with natural attacks) add your natural attacks with your normal BAB attacks to a full attack but your natural attacks would suffer the secondary penalty (-5)

so if your BAB was +3 you could get

+3 unarmed, -2 claw, -2 claw

if your BAB was +6

+6 unarmed, +1 unarmed, +1 claw, +1 claw


gourry187 wrote:

so if your BAB was +3 you could get

+3 unarmed, -2 claw, -2 claw

Yes, but only if you're not using your hands for the unarmed strike(s).

Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."

So you can use both claws as long as your unarmed strikes are kick or headbutt (or elbows or knees if you're a monk).

Liberty's Edge

So it would be 4... 2 from flurry2 from claw


balderdash wrote:
So it would be 4... 2 from flurry2 from claw

You're going to have to be a bit more clear.

What level are you? Are you still talking about a tiefling? Are you still talking about the Master of Many Styles archetype?

Liberty's Edge

Tiefling or tengue lvl 3 with flurry blows and 2 natural claw attack with improved unarmed strike weapon focus and ferral combat training


Grick wrote:
gourry187 wrote:

so if your BAB was +3 you could get

+3 unarmed, -2 claw, -2 claw

Yes, but only if you're not using your hands for the unarmed strike(s).

Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."

So you can use both claws as long as your unarmed strikes are kick or headbutt (or elbows or knees if you're a monk).

Your Unarmed Strike is now considered your "whole body" and is limb-agnostic.

Official Paizo FAQ wrote:

...Therefore, a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body...

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

Source. So it doesn't matter if both your hands, both your feat, your shoulders, head, knees, and elbows have claws and you had the capacity to attack with all of them; you could still make Unarmed Strikes for either your iterative attacks or your off-hand attacks (though, not both since it isn't a double weapon). Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/Claw/VULGAR PELVIS THRUST OF DOOM

Liberty's Edge

So am i looking at 4 claw or2 claw and i wouldn't want unarmed if i could get all 4 on a level3 flurry


My example was for a non-flurry.

If you use flurry you would need the feral combat feat to use the claws and they would replace your regular unarmed.

With flurry you would have a better BAB but fewer attacks
Without flurry you would have less BAB but 1 extra attack

Liberty's Edge

Ok so if i get less attacks and less damage when using natural attacks going this rout is kinda dumb...even doing a master of many styles and taking boar style it would be 2d4 and 2d6 bleed if i hit with the 2 natural attacks


balderdash wrote:
Ok so if i get less attacks and less damage when using natural attacks going this rout is kinda dumb...even doing a master of many styles and taking boar style it would be 2d4 and 2d6 bleed if i hit with the 2 natural attacks

You aren't getting less attacks when using FCT with FoB, you get the option to put the NA from FCT in any of the FoB attacks. It's the same number of attacks with more options than a 'normal' FoB. Reasons to use it? DR/slashing or piercing, rider effects such as poison or energy drain or damage auras. For your build it might not be great, for quite a few others it works wonders (5+ attempts to poison? Eventually someone is going to roll low). Heck even a decent NA attack (1d6) with INA and Strong Jaw keeps it competitive until late game.


Kazaan wrote:

Your Unarmed Strike is now considered your "whole body" and is limb-agnostic.

Official Paizo FAQ wrote:

...Therefore, a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body...

—Pathfinder Design Team, 03/01/13

Source.

Holy cow. Consequences!

CRB, Combat, Natural Attacks: "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack."

On its own, this would completely forbid using any natural weapon with an unarmed strike, since the 'limb' is the body, and it's not really possible to use a natural weapon that doesn't use the body.

Fortunately:

Bestiary, UMR, Natural Attacks: "Creatures with natural attacks and attacks made with weapons can use both as part of a full attack action (although often a creature must forgo one natural attack for each weapon clutched in that limb, be it a claw, tentacle, or slam)."

Ah, so you just lose one natural attack per limb.

An orc with a bite attack cannot bite if he attacks with an unarmed strike, since the unarmed strike is the entire body, and the bite is part of his body and he loses one natural attack because he used that limb.

It seems kind of silly to lose your bite attack just because you punched someone. (But you could still bite if you used a spiked gauntlet to punch someone.)

Perhaps the intent behind that FAQ was not to assign unarmed strike the entire body as a limb, but to say that the spells can target the entire body which covers all limbs. IE: the FAQ clarifies how the spell works, rather than changing unarmed strike. This leaves the more common sense interpretation that the unarmed strike uses whatever limb you use to make it. So if you punch, it uses your hand/arm, not your head and foot and whatnot.


Unarmed Strike doesn't use the whole body as a limb. It's limb-agnostic so it doesn't even consider "limbs".


Kazaan wrote:
Unarmed Strike doesn't use the whole body as a limb. It's limb-agnostic so it doesn't even consider "limbs".

There's a fairly significant difference between "a creature's unarmed strike is its entire body" vs "a creature's unarmed strike can be made using any limb".

Again, I think the intent was to say magic fang can target "unarmed strike" which covers any unarmed strike made using any limb.


Then that begs the question, How many Unarmed Strikes do you possess? It can't be "one per limb" because a creature with no limbs can still make unarmed strikes. It can't be "unlimited" because then, anyone with Multi-Weapon Fighting can fight with all weapons and also make an unlimited number of Unarmed Strikes in addition. It only makes sense within the confines of the system that you have a single Unarmed Strike that doesn't care what limb, if any, it uses (limb-agnostic). A single "unarmed strike" is a combo of whatever capacity you have to attack (any free limb or any other part of your body such as shoulder, elbow, knees, head, or vulgar pelvis thrust). It's not just a matter of 1 punch = 1 unarmed strike; it's all those punches, kicks, and everything else put together that counts as 1 unarmed strike and it's part of an attack routine that gradually stacks up but gets harder to continue landing effective hits. And unless you have specialized and dedicated martial arts training, how can you even conceive of having an "off-hand" attack in that kind of situation? Mechanically speaking, you only possess a single Unarmed Strike attack and it isn't a double weapon; therefore you can't use it by itself to two-weapon fight. Pure, undiluted logic. It also works from a balance sense as it takes dedicated martial arts training to master that (Monk) and two-weapon fighting with only unarmed strikes isn't available to mere dabblers (unarmed fighter or barbarian archetypes). It makes the most sense from all angles.


Kazaan wrote:
Then that begs the question

It does not beg the question.

Kazaan wrote:
It can't be "unlimited" because then, anyone with Multi-Weapon Fighting can fight with all weapons and also make an unlimited number of Unarmed Strikes in addition.

Multiweapon Fighting doesn't work that way, and unarmed strikes are not natural weapons.

Natural weapons grant you one attack each, so if you have claw/claw/bite/gore/tail/sting/talon/talon/wingbuffet then you can make all those attacks in a full-attack.

It doesn't matter how many potential limbs you have or what kinds of unarmed strikes you make (fist/fist/head/knee/knee/foot/foot/elbow/elbow/etc.) you're still limited to the same number of attacks as everyone else based on your BAB and relevant effects.

Kazaan wrote:
It only makes sense within the confines of the system that you have a single Unarmed Strike that doesn't care what limb, if any, it uses (limb-agnostic).

SKR posted here some examples of someone two-weapon fighting with unarmed strikes, then showing how flavoring those unarmed strikes as kicks doesn't allow you to also make two claw attacks.

He says "The intent was to prevent you from making a full attack sequence with your natural attacks and a bunch of unarmed strikes by specifically defining your undefined unarmed strikes as conveniently different limbs than your natural attacks."

This backs up the FAQ reading that means if the orc makes an unarmed strike, he can't also bite. But if he attacks with a greataxe, he can.

Kazaan wrote:
It's not just a matter of 1 punch = 1 unarmed strike; it's all those punches, kicks, and everything else put together that counts as 1 unarmed strike and it's part of an attack routine that gradually stacks up but gets harder to continue landing effective hits.

Where do you get this? An attack with an unarmed strike is a single attack. There's fluff about attacking the entire time and actual 'attacks' just being the significant ones, but that's fluff, and applies equally to all weapons.

Kazaan wrote:
And unless you have specialized and dedicated martial arts training, how can you even conceive of having an "off-hand" attack in that kind of situation?

Any random lout in a bar can make an unarmed strike. If he doesn't have the feat, it'll provoke from the guy he's swinging at, but he can certainly still elect to do so. He can even take two swings if he uses the two-weapon fighting rules. He'll take very significant penalties if he doesn't have the feat, but he can still attempt it.

Kazaan wrote:
Mechanically speaking, you only possess a single Unarmed Strike attack and it isn't a double weapon; therefore you can't use it by itself to two-weapon fight.

Natural Attacks: "Some fey, humanoids, monstrous humanoids, and outsiders do not possess natural attacks. These creatures can make unarmed strikes, but treat them as weapons for the purpose of determining attack bonuses, and they must use the two-weapon fighting rules when making attacks with both hands."

Kazaan wrote:
Pure, undiluted logic.

Which is fine for proposing a house rule. Just be aware that it's not what the rules say, nor what the Designer has said is intended.


balderdash wrote:

i am making a monk tiefling and i need to know if i can us the monk d6 damage for the natural attack damage of the tiefleng claws.... the master of many styles monk loses the ability to use flurry of blows and was going to use the 2 natural claws but didnt know if the new damage would apply since he is a monk

alright so there is a big trainwreck over this entire idea. Monsters being monks.

Lets set a more clear cut example of whats happening.

Lets take two monks, exact copies of eachother down to everything but one thing. One just a normal monk human, the other is an adamantium monk golem.

Theroy is that aside from all the immunitys the golems gain there is no diffrence in what they throw out.

NOW we come to the problem. That golem is made of solid adamantium and its punches are going to be significantly more dangerous. First of all its got the adamantium quality of ignoring hardness up to 20, then it has the physics of being solid super metal being made to move with very well trained human speed. A monk of a sertian level can throw punches very fast in reality and if you get a robot in there replicating it exactly I belive your going to have a HUGE diffrence in what happens when it connects.

Now I would like this issue addressed and smoothed out just alittle bit more... As A DM problem solving has to come fast and saying 'no' to that fixes the problem but in my mind the best way to handle that is to treat the unarmed attack the monk makes as if it were made with the natrual weapon, so if it was a claw it would be slashing... only this is done at the monk's unarmed damage benifiting from the "Improved natural attack" feat. Not too broken not entirely robbing but this feels like an area that needs love or attention

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