Selling Mid Scenario


Pathfinder Society

Grand Lodge

Is it legal to sell off equipment/consumables gained mid game to pay for condition removals?

Does this affect end-of-scenario gold?

5/5 5/55/55/5

Nuku wrote:
Is it legal to sell off equipment/consumables gained mid game to pay for condition removals?

Yes. Provided you're somewhere you can sell the items anad then buy spellcasting services. In Absalom you can sell a sword on any street corner, go across the street and get your lesser restoration (or just stop in a temple of torag and make it one stop shopping) In the middle of the mawangi expanse, not so much.

Quote:
Does this affect end-of-scenario gold?

Yes. That stuff is how you get your end of scenario gold, so if you sell it you have less of it.

Grand Lodge

In what ratio? Equipment rarely meshes 1:1 with the end of scenario loot.

More importantly, where is this detailed?

5/5 *** Venture-Agent, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East

If you spend 300gp removing conditions during the scenario, it costs you 300gp. If you don't have the cash on hand there's nothing stopping you from selling things found during the scenario to help raise the cash, but there's no savings on your part. It still costs 300gp.

Grand Lodge

Nuku wrote:
More importantly, where is this detailed?

Checking the guide:

Quote:
You may use any item that you find during the scenario for free until the end of the scenario, but you must purchase the item when the scenario is over in order for your character to be able to continue to use the item. This rule is most applicable to consumables such as potions, scrolls, and so on, but also applies to weapons, magic items, and so on.

And:

Quote:
If during a scenario you find the +1 frost longswordfrom the example above and decide to use it until the end of the adventure, but then you get disarmed or it gets sundered, you are still able to buy that item off the Chronicle sheet at the end of the scenario.

So, you have loot, it gets entirely destroyed, and money earned is entirely unchanged. You can even still buy the sword at the end. It also explicitly says that, for the duration of the scenario, it's yours to use.

Where does your view come from?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

From the guide wrote:
At the completion of each encounter during a scenario, your GM will award each player a set amount of gold that reflects that player’s share of the potential loot (though not all encounters will have treasure rewards).

If you use the gold gained from completing encounters, which is what the OP was proposing, that gold is removed from your share at the end of the game.

If other PCs need to chip in in order to afford the service, their share of the expenses comes out of their share of the loot.

GM section, Chapter 7 wrote:
Step 8: Have the player fill out a list of all Items Sold/Conditions Gained (X) and a list of all Items Bought/Conditions Cleared (Y). He must list any equipment purchased or sold, as well as conditions like death, disease, or ability drain restored through magic during the scenario or after its conclusion. See Dealing with Afflictions, below, for more information.

Your PC buys a spell cast to clear a condition, it is still marked in and paid for.

5/5

Nuku - Equipment and gold work differently. You get the gold, and you have the option of trading it for equipment.

The equipment is still available for trade even if something happened to it in the scenario, mostly just for the sake of not having to deal with the bookkeeping. So yes, you can have it during and buy it after. But there's still only the one, in each character's personal timeline: The one used during the scenario, and the one available for each character's purchase.

The gold, similarly, is only available once. You can't spend it in the scenario and still have it to spend after. That would be the equivalent of finding the +1 frost longsword and equipping two characters with it, you dig?

Grand Lodge

kinevon wrote:

If you use the gold gained from completing encounters, which is what the OP was proposing, that gold is removed from your share at the end of the game.

I am the OP, and I was proposing hawking off equipment, not found gold. You obviously can't keep gold proceeds, anymore than you can keep the equipment itself, but I can't find any rules that prevent you from using the equipment for a spell during the scenario.

Is there an actual rule that states this? What is the difference in selling a potion of CSW instead of drinking it, and using the money to grab a spellcasting of remove disease or something else?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Nevada—Las Vegas

Nuku wrote:
kinevon wrote:

If you use the gold gained from completing encounters, which is what the OP was proposing, that gold is removed from your share at the end of the game.

I am the OP, and I was proposing hawking off equipment, not found gold. You obviously can't keep gold proceeds, anymore than you can keep the equipment itself, but I can't find any rules that prevent you from using the equipment for a spell during the scenario.

Is there an actual rule that states this? What is the difference in selling a potion of CSW instead of drinking it, and using the money to grab a spellcasting of remove disease or something else?

Simply put: The money awarded for completing an encounter is the value of the gold and equipment found during that encounter. If you use that money, in any fashion, you gave USED that money.

Example:

Treasure: The rescued crate holds a smaller mahogany box inside, which contains five books and a few loose sheets of paper in a leather folder. The titles and subjects seem completely unrelated to each other: Practical Thaumaturgy In Accordance with Creation, Geographic Anomalies of the Inner Sea, Under Kaer Maga: A Trial and Travel, Physiology of Dragons: An Illustrated Reference, Lost Sarusan. The leather folder contains cargo manifestos, warehouse inventories, and other financial logs from a dozen different merchant houses and trade guilds.
The crate also contains 10 sets of masterwork thieves’ tools, three flasks of alchemist’s fire, a flask of acid, a dozen jars of various inks, a footprint book*, adamantine weapon blanch*, three bags of powder*, a deck of marked cards*, and two sets of average loaded dice*. (Items marked with an asterisk may be found in the Advanced Player’s Guide.)
Rewards: If the PCs bring the books in good condition to Guaril Karela, give each PC 111 gp.

Now, while it is beyond my patience at this point, if you go through, price all this stuff, add it up together, then divide by 4, you will probably find that the value of the items comes fairly close to 111 gp.


The rewards you are given in gp for an encounter are the equivalent to having already sold everything acquired during the encounter off, so you cannot sell it twice. You cannot sell it twice.

If you sell the item for gold, that gold MUST come out of your share of the total gold for the scenario.

Have a nice day, please stop trying to bend the rules. A scenario provides a maximum total of X gold at Y tier. If you spend any gold acquired from any source during the scenario, that gold comes off the gold acquired during the scenario, either by lowering the gold rewarded, or being listed and paid for in the Items Bought section.

With the very rare exception of one Season 0 scenario, THERE IS NO OVERCAP GOLD. Every copper piece obtained during the scenario, including from selling found equipment, is already counted into the maximum gold for the scenario.

TL;DR: The only gold you can spend without lowering your rewards, one way or another, for the scenario is the gold you started with. Otherwise it either lowers the gold earned, or gets marked as spent in your Items Bought box.

Grand Lodge

Then why can you drink a potion and lose no gold, or lose magic items, still no effect? All the rules say that the money is yours, no matter what happens to the magic items. You can take all the alchemical items and throw them against the wall, with no effect on the end gold.

3/5

Yeah, that's the first thing I thought when reading the first post, if you can use potions+scrolls+wand charges, shoot and break arrows, wear armor that may get sundered, with no consequence for scenario gp awards... then you should be able to sell it mid-scenario as well. The gold reward at the end is for the accomplishment of finding the treasure/defeating the encounter to take the treasure off the dead guy's body. What happens to the treasure after that is of no consequence for end of scenario gp awards.

Dark Archive 4/5

The thing that stops you doing it is that all purchases bought either within the scenario or afterwards must be placed on your chronicle sheet and thus are deducted from your personal gold.

While you dont nessesarily need to have the all of the gold on you (as you are allowed to sell the stuff you find within the scenario to raise the funds) at the end of the scenario any purchases you have made are tallied up on the chronicle and count against the gold you would have earned from the scenario.

3/5

Okay I can live with that, just trying to apply logic. Guess the top logic is you have to pay for what you buy, and below that (because it wouldn't make sense otherwise) you can use what you find in a scenario, but if you sell it to buy something else, see rule 1.

Grand Lodge 5/5 ****

Nuku

Lets start with PFS is organised play. This is important as sometimes you need to bend real life logic for the sake if playability.

Organised play dictates a roughly equal wealth distribution.

Now just theoretical - assume a group of new players thinks of a creative way to overcome the wealth curve?

Take Mist of Mwangi in the Blackros Museum.

1) it's a museum full of very expensive items
2) we are in Absalom - there is a place to sell stuff
3) stealing is mon lawful but not evil - it doesn't get you banned

What would prevent a group to just loot the place instead of doing the mission. Several thousand gold pieces of items from 'fluff' surely can be retrieved and sold off.

In a home game this might happen - and as GM you have problems to get your group back into the plot. In organised play you have a fixed amount if gold - no matter what ingenious plots you come up with.
This is to stop anything of this dead in the tracks. End of story.

So yes - you can sell something during the adventure - but it will come out of the final reward. Call it organised play magic - it doesn't follow real life logic.

Now about consumables. This is to make it easier for book keeping. So what happens if player a drinks the potion if cure medium wounds. Do I take if 300 gp from him, 75 gp from everyone if its a group of 4 and 50 gp if its a group of 6?
What about damage they cause - are there liabilities?
What about the nook who fled - he was wearing MW leather and a sword as well as an alchemist fire. How much do I deduct?

I could carry on endless.

Be happy that you can use consumables. It doesn't make real life sense. It is a concession to simplify the running of the game.

Grand Lodge

That sounds great, except at no point did I suggest actually -gaining- money. I suggested trading in loot that is specified by the scenario, not randomly purloined from the backdrop, in for condition removal.

This does not make WBL go crazy. You can't keep the items past scenario end, so you certainly should NOT be able to keep the money past scenario end either. At no point did I suggest a way to get more money. Your line of argument does not quite mesh with the proposal.

4/5 *

Nuku wrote:
This does not make WBL go crazy. You can't keep the items past scenario end, so you certainly should NOT be able to keep the money past scenario end either. At no point did I suggest a way to get more money. Your line of argument does not quite mesh with the proposal.

But if you use the money from the item to do something like clear a condition, you are effectively keeping it past the scenario, since you have cleared the condition you would otherwise have had to deal with at the end.

Bottom line: Anything you buy has to be noted on the chronicle, and the expense deducted from your reward. If an item in the scenario is part of your reward, you can't effectively sell it twice.

Grand Lodge

But if you find a potion of cure disease and guzzle it down, thereby not having to buy a cure disease, you just got to 'keep it past the scenario', by your own logic, which I do not agree with.

3/5

Nuku, see my post above. You are right in your logic, but according to PFS rules, there is a higher logic. That anything you buy during a scenario must be noted and paid for on your chronicle sheet.

Also, ever notice how it's built in to many scenarios, that if you'll be getting stat damage, there will be potions/scrolls of lesser resoration, for example? The writers are trying to be kind, give you a way to reverse or avoid gaining conditions, usually.

But having to pay to cure a disease or curse or blindness will eventually come up, it's part of every Pathfinder's career.

Exactly why the top rule is that you have to pay for what you buy, well, that can be up for debate, though I'm not sure it will ever change.

Here's another thing to think about. If you sell loot you find to buy a +2 longsword mid scenario, do you get to keep that longsword after the scenario, in addition to getting full gold for everybody? Of course not, makes no sense. Well, selling loot to buy a condition clear, which you get to keep after the scenario, without reducing anybody's gold, is the same sort of thing. Now you could argue that you should be able to buy the +2 longsword to use during the scenario, but have to let it go/not keep it on your chronicle, and that everybody then gets full gold, this makes perfect sense. But then what about selling loot to clear a condition? Maybe you can do this to clear the condition for the remainder of the scenario, but you still get the condition on your chronicle sheet. I could see that being okay, but no further.

The only exception is when you clear the condition with an item included as loot, which should be seen as a scenario author's attempt to balance the scenario/make it more tier appropriate/not cost too many resources/etc. If that item isn't included, that's intentional, and the scenario author/editors are saying that the scenario is balanced as is, that they expect only the normal number of conditions to be gained from this scenario. Perhaps the scenario is more likely to leave a character cursed, but less likely to kill them. That sort of balance.

Grand Lodge

Thank you, Ranger, for your reply. It is well thought out and very logical.

I do feel that this should be noted somewhere. I did not think of this idea on my own. I saw it suggested by another GM on this very board. I think it's worth noting in the guide or, at least, in a FAQ somewhere.

As it is, right now, the RAW supports my view. Is that RAI? Probably not, as per your logic above. It should be fixed.

Thanks.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

I have not read the PFS guide in a while, but I think the following are all correct. If not, input appreciated.

1) In the first encounter of an adventure, you find a +2 shortsword. You use the +2 shortsword through the rest of the adventure. At the end of the adventure, you no longer have the +2 shortsword. You record the gold earned during the scenario. A +2 shortsword appears on the chronicle. You choose to purchase a +2 shortsword based on the access from the chronicle. Your buddy, a two-weapon rogue, chooses to buy two of 'em, also based on the access from the chronicle. All's fine.

While the logic of why +2 shortsword appears on the chronicle is tied to its appearance in the adventure, the connection between the one in the adventure and the subsequent purchase of three +2 shortswords by two different characters is abstract. The shortsword doesn't suddenly become three shortswords.

2) In the first encounter of the adventure, you find a potion of remove blindness. In the second encounter, you are blinded. You drink the potion and it is gone. You finish the adventure. At the end of the adventure, you receive the full gold. You record on the chronicle sheet that you gained the blinded condition and that it was removed by magic. The chronicle shows a potion of remove blindness. You buy a potion of remove blindness for next time and record it on your character sheet.

3) Being typical Pathfinder paranoids, everyone in the party of 5 adventurers had spent every last copper piece prior to this adventure. In the first encounter of an adventure, you find a +2 shortsword and become blind.You stumble over to the local magic item cart, sell the shortsword for 4150gp plus some change and buy a potion of remove blindness for 750gp, which you then chug it and again see the beauty of the world. (Now split into two scenarios)

3A) You finish the adventure. At the end of the adventure, you receive the full gold for the adventure. You record the purchase of a potion of remove blindness (or gold spent), the gained condition, and that it was cured by magic on the chronicle. You do not record a potion of remove blindness on your character sheet because you don't have one anymore. Having started the adventure 0 gold, your award was 1000gp. The potion cost 750gp. You have 250gp left.

3B) The whole party decides they are over the head and end the adventure right now. Having completed only part of the adventure, your award is only 500gp each. You started the adventure with 0gp. You gained 500gp, but spent 750gp. Your only option is to sell equipment to raise the other 250gp. You grumble about the vanishing 1650gp and change, but them's the breaks. You record the sale of equipment, the purchase of the potion, having gained the blind condition, and that it was magically resolved. You don't record a potion on your character sheet and having sold exactly equipment to raise exactly 250gp, your gp balance at the end of the adventure is 0gp.

Note, there are other ways to remove the blindness via spellcasting services via party members, but if purchasing a potion that didn't appear in the adventure, one single individual person has to buy it.

Anything wrong here?

5/5 5/55/55/5

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The pathfinder loot and reward system was designed, in universe, by a gnome one week before he finally cracked and was bleached. It does not many any in character sense

[jedi handwave]this is not the cash loophole you're looking for [/jedi handwave]

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/5

Nuku wrote:
But if you find a potion of cure disease and guzzle it down, thereby not having to buy a cure disease, you just got to 'keep it past the scenario', by your own logic, which I do not agree with.

Thod addresses this very point in his last post. This is permitted because it makes the admin easier for already busy GMs, and has a limited impact on wealth.

Grand Lodge

Wait, is this for GMs, or to make it easier on players?

4/5

RAW from Guide to pathfinder society orgranized play v4.3 page 23

---

At the completion of each encounter during a
scenario, your GM will award each player a set amount of
gold that reflects that player’s share of the potential loot
(though not all encounters will have treasure rewards).
This gold piece total can fluctuate depending on what you
accomplished and how you accomplished it. We assume
that you have enough bags, backpacks, or muscle to
haul around the loot you find or, in the case of an urban
scenario, immediate access to markets and bazaars where
you can sell your goods.

---

The items you find each encounter are going to be sold off and distributed equally to each party member.

If you say find a +2 sword of awesomeness and sell it to pay for a restoration spell during the scenario...you no longer have that item to sell to distribute amongst the party... So your gold piece treasure reward marked on the chronicle sheet has to be reduced to reflect this.

Do not let all the text talking about gaining purchase access to the item on the chronicle sheet confuse the issue.

also from the same section.

While this system isn’t entirely realistic, it removes an incredible
time sink from the play process (processing gear) and helps
keep the scenario on track, on time, and moving quickly.

One of the reasons, for the rules laid out in Step 3: Spoils of War and Buying Equipment, is to make is easier for the GM and the Players.

EDIT:
If the condition happens to be death. From page 24

Please note that players can (and are encouraged to) share or pool
their resources in order to bring a dead party member
back to life. They may not, however, pool Prestige Points
to do so, even if they’re from the same faction. PCs can
also sell off gear, including the dead character’s gear, at
50% of its listed value to raise money to purchase a spell
that will return their slain ally from the dead, though
they can only do so in a settlement and they cannot sell
off any items found during the current scenario that they
haven’t purchased. PCs who die during a scenario and are
raised receive full XP for that scenario, so long as they
completed at least three encounters.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

Nijel wrote:
If you say find a +2 sword of awesomeness and sell it to pay for a restoration spell during the scenario...you no longer have that item to sell to distribute amongst the party... So your gold piece treasure reward marked on the chronicle sheet has to be reduced to reflect this.

It may be a minor distinction, but I disagree with this description. It isn't that you don't have it to sell. Rather, you have already sold it. The treasure isn't reduced. Instead, the cost of the restoration is recorded on the collective chronicles of the party.

The net effect is the same. It is gone from the final total on the chronicle. However, keeping this perspective prevents misunderstandings based upon the value of the goods and the number of characters in the party, the use of consumable loot, and similar matters.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

nijel wrote:

"...they cannot sell

off any items found during the current scenario that they
haven’t purchased."

Well, that puts a wrench in what I've been understanding and describing above.

4/5

Howie23 wrote:
nijel wrote:

"...they cannot sell

off any items found during the current scenario that they
haven’t purchased."
Well, that puts a wrench in what I've been understanding and describing above.

Yea I was a little surprised to find that in the death section as well.

Grand Lodge

I retract all complaints. I have been defeated by RAW and concede entirely. Well played.

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