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So, I'll be joining a friend's campaign after one of my current two ends, but I got a late seat so everybody else's classes have been chosen. So far we will for sure have:
-Two rogues, one a Catfolk and one a Kitsune
-An Elven Barbarian
-A Boar Shaman Druid (I forget which race.)
Typically if I come in as the 5th man in a 5 man band I go Bard without a second thought. (Especially in a party of all martials. Even the Druid is going to be melee focused.) But unfortunately with this make-up we already have two CHA-heavy skill monkeys, and I think that would just up the redundancy redundancy quotient a bit too high for anybody at the table's liking.
I notice we're lacking in magic, of both the divine and arcane variety. So maybe a Life Oracle? Or a Wizard of some kind? The important thing here is that if I do go caster I really need one that will complement the party---not overshadow it.
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2 rogues, a barbarian, and a druid. Id go with an archer of some sort. Am alchemist with the Explosive Missile and Explosive Bomb discoveries is always fun when paired with a Pistol or Heavy Crossbow. Maybe a more traditionalist longbow fighter is more ur style of play which can lay down some serious ranged damage. If ur heart is set on an arcane caster than a buff based sorcerer with 2 levels of arcane archer could be a great support role while still being able to do some damage.
Buff focused sorcerer. You have two characters that wouldn't mind a free bull's strength all the time. Upon reaching 6th haste can be your opener, and that's a party that will really enjoy haste. Hang on to stuff like resist energy and dispel magic to take care of any problems that might pop up.
Another good option for a buffer is a mystic theurge. They're not super powerful or anything, you'll probably be lagging behind a bit as far as power goes but you'll always have those little solutions like remove fear or hold portal.
Illusionist could be fun too. Go gnome, take that feat that lets you concentrate as a swift, keep your threatening illusion metamagiced spell up all the time as you walk through the dungeon. You can set up walls that lead to angry elves or flanks with furry sneak attacking things and probably do that whole haste/bull strength thing on top of all that.
I'd say an arcane caster is the right train of thought. Wizard or Sorcerer is my first thought. If you're worried about complementing rather than overshadowing, then just make sure you've got some well-rounded buff spells. If that elven barbarian is going for combat reflexes then the enlarge person spell should be particularly good for him, and that's available from level 1.
Oracle and Cleric are seldom a bad way to go. Considering the Druid has access to some healing, I'd say a Life Oracle is a little overkill, but a battlefield controlbuffer/debuffer Oracle or Cleric probably wouldn't go amiss. Going with a Dual Cursed Oracle, you gain access to the Misfortune revelation, meaning you can make the sneak attacking Rogues hit more often, the enemies hit the HP poor Rogues less often, and make your GM reroll crits. Going dual Cursed, if your GM allows it, I'd take the Blackened curse. You get a -4 on weapon attack rolls which you can inflict on enemies with your free Oracle's Burden spell, plus you get some arcane cool stuff like Scorching Ray and Wall of Fire. The Haunted curse gives you some sweet spells too, and with forcing re-rolls, there is a corner case where you can make someone under the effects of Oracle's Burden roll a one and disarm them for free. That's a once in a lifetime event though.
If you go Oracle, the Stone mystery allows you to sit under the battlefield while you buff/debuff. The Waves mystery is pretty good at battlefield control and debuffing since it gets Water Sight to see through its fog effects so you can box enemies in with fog and run around the edge of the battle keeping enemies in your party's blender. They also get Baleful Polymorph as a revelation through Punitive Transformation.
If you go with a Cleric, check out some of the alternate channeling abilities. A lot of the positive ones are awesome party buffs and several of the negative ones are pretty debilitating.
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The Party Picker Says: Alchemist, Ranged Paladin, Vanilla Sorcerer, and Spell slinger wizard are all good choices. My money is on the Ranged Paladin, for a combo of healing, buffing, and ranged attacks.
Go for a witch with healing. De buff and end encounters more efficiently.
Go for a witch with healing. De buff and end encounters more efficiently.
I agree. Witch would be a great choice for this party.
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+1 to Alchemist or Witch.
Both are Int based which would be good for your party. Without adding archetypes they both have access to some healing, Witch more so then Alchemist. They both have access to area damage, Alchemist more so then Witch this time. Alchemist can buff, though not as easily as other buffers, while the Witch is an awe-inspiring de-buffer.
Depending on how much the Druid plans on using buff spells, that last part is kinda the deciding factor.
Witch alchemist or bard. Bard can actually help the party shine since you'll be increasing the rogues' chances to hit and their damage. Witch does something similar by lowering the foe's defenses and attack.
And the alchemist has so many directions it can go into that it simply works.
I vote for the mystic theurge because when else would you have the chance?
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I actually think the Witch is a weaker option than the Sorcerer or Alchemist. The witch's main gig, hexes, are single target by and large. You need more crowd control, and area damage. Do you really need to debuff somebody if he is going to be surrounded on four sides by melee dudes? I'd be more worried about a horde of zombies, or swarms of bugs, or an angry mob.
Also, I wouldn't worry about being int based - your party basically has all the skills covered, and not an insubstantial amount of them.
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I second the evangelist archer cleric option. With 4 melee party members the performance ability is worth it's weight in gold. Especially with 3 of them 3/4 BAB. Focus on Wisdom and Dex and use archery after you've buffed up everyone. Your healing will mostly come from channels and CLW wands out of combat. Once you hit level 7 you ca start a performance on a move action and cast blessing of fervor with a standard. That's an extra attack for everyone and +2 to hit and damage, you'll end up creating more damage than all the other players combined. Later rounds you can just plink away with your bow.
A single level dip in to zen archer could give you a few extra feats, unarmed attacks in case someone gets close and wisdom to AC.
For feats you'll need lingering performance to maximize your performance, Point blank shot and Precise shot after that you can choose whatever depending on what you want to highlight.
God-wise I suggest Erastil. Bow as a weapon, Feather domain gives you a perception bonus and you can get an AC to play bodyguard or add extra damage (I suggest boon companion if you're gonna send it in to combat)
I love how many threads get so many replies even though the OP hasn't yet made a 2nd appearance to give thoughts/feedback on the first replies...
It's better than the OP posting five or six times before they get a response ;)
I love how many threads get so many replies even though the OP hasn't yet made a 2nd appearance to give thoughts/feedback on the first replies...
He could be lurking on the edges soaking up our wisdom. ;)
I vote for the mystic theurge because when else would you have the chance?
+1 this.
This party is ideal for a Theurge, if you are at all interested in playing one. Some, like BBT above, don't care for them, but in their niche I think they can shine. And this is a niche if there ever was one! :)
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When in Rome!
I say build a tengu* rogue - build around different skills/fighting style than the two CHA based skill monkeys and plan the perfect caper. With the stated party composition I would think the campaign is probably based on a lot of skullduggery and rogue mischief.
* Tengu for the wonderful roleplaying opportunities of playing a bird dude alongside the cat guy and fox man.
@OP - Probably it would help if you gave us some more info on what kind of campaign you guys are playing.
youve got two-and-a-half animal people in the party, play a houndmaster ranger (or whatever its called).
Go alchemist. Throw bombs at em and watch things explode.
Go Bard, everyone likes a friendly buffer.
Go as a class you wanna play? profit.
I'd totally go for the mystic theurge. You're missing both Arcane and Divine, so the Theurge fills both those roles. Plus they have a ton of spells per day, and are able to fill nearly any caster role with ease.
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For the record, I have been hanging on the edges scouring these posts for wisdom :P
The kind of campaign? None of us are really sure. The DM is being pretty tight lipped about it, and so far the only thing he has told us is that we will all be starting the campaign as children in an orphanage. (Lv 0, some RP, and then we start together in adulthood in our classes.) From previous campaigns what I do know he likes are grand battles with lots of players on both sides, and mixing in some steampunk and and anachronistic technology in his worlds. Beyond that? Couldn't say.
I think Bard is definitely out for me. Thematically, it's a little too close to the rogues the others are playing (Hell, the Catfolk should probably BE a bard, but is convinced going Rogue is the only way to be useful in combat. Yeah, I know, don't even try getting into that discussion.) and honestly, it's not one of the stronger casting choices.
I've seen a lot of posts for Mystic Theurge, but I keep hearing it is a mechanically weak option? If we need some Divine/Arcane together, wouldn't something like a Lore Mystery Oracle or Magic Domain Cleric work better?
The Zen-Archer/Cleric combo is one of the more interesting ideas. I might have to write it out and see how it would perform.
@Stargypsyd: What Sorcerer/Oracle combo were you thinking of?
@HumphreyBoggard: First of all, best name EVER. Secondly, that is thematically awesome. But Rogues aren't great team players and I really think this is a party begging for some sort of team player. Now being a Tengu however . . .
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@EntrerisShadow
The MT is not as bad as its proclaimed as long as u see it for what its meant for. MT is the ultimate buffer healer 2nd to none. True it takes time to achieve its power to the fullest but as long as u stuck with buff spells and heal spells that require no save it is worth it. If u say go 4 levels of sorcerer 6 levels of cleric and 10 levels of MT then u will be able to cast 7th level arcane spells and 8th level divine spells ot including any feats/traits to increase ur casting ability. If u go the normal heal bot wrought of cleric were u memorize nothing but buff and status removal spells and rely on the spontaneous healing u will do greatly since u can cannibalize ur sorcerer spell slots, which sorcerer gets the most of, to perform extra healing. The sorcerer spells of course will be buff spells that are not on the cleric list and spells that dont target the enemy directly.
i would think about a witch with a healing hex
at lvl 5 you have one cure modred wounds for evryone! even undead can be damaged this way!!
hedge witch
you can spontaniously cast cure spels and stil have a list of ofensive spells ready aswell. or ofcourse buff/controll hexes.
but a wizard would always be the best choice as wizards are OP and they can do anything! you could skip the words lvl's of a wizzard as they start to seriouslty gain power from lvl 5 and up!!
Now that would be a really cool party if the barbarian were to go down a Beast Totem route ...
Then a Witch with the various transformative hexes and an appropriate patron ... and hope you finish up out in the wilds :)
If you want to go Mystic Theurge you can use the Empyreal bloodline for the Sorcerer, which changes your casting stat to Wisdom. That'll help out a lot.
I mean, I have to agree w/ some other people above, rarely do you see such a weak party to use such a weak (but fun, in my opinion) prestige class.
Really any weaker than usual option would be fine for this game, I think, and a wonderful excuse to play something fun that isn't uber optimzed.
I actually think the Witch is a weaker option than the Sorcerer or Alchemist. The witch's main gig, hexes, are single target by and large. You need more crowd control, and area damage. Do you really need to debuff somebody if he is going to be surrounded on four sides by melee dudes? I'd be more worried about a horde of zombies, or swarms of bugs, or an angry mob.
Also, I wouldn't worry about being int based - your party basically has all the skills covered, and not an insubstantial amount of them.
Unless you rethink your approach. Flight, healing, ward, fortune, water lung are not debuffs.
Area damage? You got burning hands at level one. And, um....
Okay, so the witch doesn't rock at area damage. But how much are the four melee dudes going to mind it if the thing they're surrounding is dealing with debuffs?
At level one, battlefield control seems more like the druid's gig. He's at least got entangle. The witch will eventually have access to things like stinking cloud and black tentacles.
From previous campaigns what I do know he likes are grand battles with lots of players on both sides, and mixing in some steampunk and and anachronistic technology in his worlds. Beyond that? Couldn't say.
I would definitely roll up a hard-drinking, gambling, spaghetti western Tengu Gunslinger. Think The Man with No Name from The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly/A Fistful of Dollars/For a Few Dollars More. He has piercing blue eyes, wears a cowboy hat, and walks with his arms tucked into his poncho, ready to draw his pistols and kill in an instant.
Mechanically, it would be a pretty good fit for the party - they need someone who can put out a lot of ranged damage or else they'll be looking at a TPK if they can't melee an enemy. In large battles you'll have plenty of enemies to kill to get grit back. I wouldn't worry about healing - the druid can use a wand of CLW after the battle is over and trying to cure in combat is going to be a lost cause for you guys. After level 7 I'd start taking levels in cleric so that you'll be able to use divine scrolls, etc.
Ask your GM if there will be fire arm siege engines in his campaign. If so, I would go vanilla gunslinger if only so you could casually fire a cannon by lighting it with your cigar in a big set piece battle. If not, I would go either musketeer* or pistolero**.
* "When a man with a .45 meets a man with a rifle, the man with a pistol will be a dead man. That's an old Tengu Proverb...and it's true."
** "When the man with a .45 meets the man with a rifle, you said the man with a pistol is a dead man (load his gun). Let's see if it's true."
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Minor edits.
If you choose a MT, you should buy each other party member a nice gift, as they are going to have to carry your character for at least the first six levels.
First off, I think you CAN build a MT that can stand up with a regular party. I'm playing one now, and while we are still early days of the campaign, he is an awesome buffer and his Summoned creatures last a full six rounds at first level!(W1+Specialist[Conjuration]+Magical Knack trait+Spell Specialization[SMI]=6rnds) Yes, he is missing a spell level over where he should be (Started at third level, C2/W1) but he is powerful in his own supportive way. If he has a minute to buff the party, we go in like Dreadnoughts. If not, we struggle the first couple rounds until we start getting our game faces on properly. He may not be as straight up powerful as a straight Summoner wizard, but he wasn't designed to be, nor will this guy be designed that way either. This sounds like a party that would be very much conducive to such a character, and he would be a powerful ally to their lower-powered melee capabilities.
Like I said, if you are at all interested in the Theurge, play it now; you'll never get a better chance. ;)