A discussion on the clear spindle ioun stone's Resonant effects and legality in PFS


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The Exchange 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Tallow wrote:


I've had friends quit because of the power creep. So catch 22. Friends will always quit regardless what the campaign does. So I want to see the campaign work in a way in which I'll choose to stick around so I don't lose all the friends I've made by leaving.

And some of the nerfs to things that really didn't need it have been making me reconsider where I want to spend my money and time.

I have friends I have found from Organized Play that I never would have met without, but at the same time I've spent money out of my pocket on various source material that are now invalidated or modified to the point where they are effectively useless.

When was the last time a caster was nerfed *hard*, not counting Summoner?

Sound Striker Bard?

I'm sure there are others... that's just one that hit me recently.

Or are you asking about when the TOOLS used by casters were nerfed?

Things like increasing the casting time of spells from Standard to Full Round (looking at you sleep, silence etc. are old news... but maybe...

That might be when they ruled that all spell casting has visible effects (manifestations?), so we actually CAN'T conceal spell casting... everyone in the bar knows you thru a spell when you message the bartender your order. They don't know WHAT you cast - they don't have any Spellcraft and so (for some judges) are likely to assume you are casting some very dangerous magic (i.e. all magic is dangerous) and so need to be attacked...

But that "nerf" actually effected ALL spell casters, not just one class.

The Lore Master "nerf" effects only one ARCHETYPE of one martial class...

In the interest of "Fairness" perhaps we should have a "nerf" that effects ALL non-spell casters? Perhaps something like "always have to SAVE verse spells that you can't recognize..."

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Da Wander wrote:


That might be when they ruled that all spell casting has visible effects (manifestations?), so we actually CAN'T conceal spell casting... everyone in the bar knows you thru a spell when you message the bartender your order. They don't know WHAT you cast - they don't have any Spellcraft and so (for some judges) are likely to assume you are casting some very dangerous magic (i.e. all magic is dangerous) and so need to be attacked...

Except....

How many tables have actually *done* this since it went into effect?

I think I've seen *one* where it has come up?

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/5 Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tallow wrote:
Archetypes should not make the class strictly better, but rather be a parallel move at best.

I think I disagree with this. The class itself provides a baseline, but archetypes SHOULD make the class better at whatever you intend to be doing - in ways that penalize things you don't plan on doing.

The Exchange

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Da Wander wrote:


That might be when they ruled that all spell casting has visible effects (manifestations?), so we actually CAN'T conceal spell casting... everyone in the bar knows you thru a spell when you message the bartender your order. They don't know WHAT you cast - they don't have any Spellcraft and so (for some judges) are likely to assume you are casting some very dangerous magic (i.e. all magic is dangerous) and so need to be attacked...

Except....

How many tables have actually *done* this since it went into effect?

I think I've seen *one* where it has come up?

Huh? I don't let anyone conceal spellcasting without very specific abilities which allow you to since the FAQ.

The Exchange 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Da Wander wrote:


That might be when they ruled that all spell casting has visible effects (manifestations?), so we actually CAN'T conceal spell casting... everyone in the bar knows you thru a spell when you message the bartender your order. They don't know WHAT you cast - they don't have any Spellcraft and so (for some judges) are likely to assume you are casting some very dangerous magic (i.e. all magic is dangerous) and so need to be attacked...

Except....

How many tables have actually *done* this since it went into effect?

I think I've seen *one* where it has come up?

More than I have seen Lore Wardens at.

But then, I normally run casters. And I often try to use spells outside of combat. (My example of with the bartender was from a recent game. The judge was kind enough to let me "do over" my stated action, before the other patrons in the bar attacked me "for casting in public".)

Edit: and again, this "nerf" effected ALL casters, not just one Archetype...


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Big Dumb Fighter wrote:
Silly birdman. Martial characters am not allowed to have good things. Fighter must be dumb so he be strong. Him getting feat that need good smarts would make too strong. Lore Wardumb much better now. And who need magic stone to help mind? Now silly barbarian need nerf.

Just because martials aren't allowed to have nice things doesn't mean that casters should be.

After all, fair is fair. Lore Warden just got taken out behind the toolshed for re-education and re-calibration, so let's take... I dunno... Specialist Wizards out there now.

...in the sake of fairness, of course.

Now that's just crazy talk.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:


if 70% success with just a little investment

A trait, a feat, your species, that species alternate race trait, and 30% of your gold is not a little investment by any measure

And there is a very good argument for a 70% success rate not being very good. It comes up often enough that you wind up spending a fight every other session not getting to play your character.

I'll second that...

I get to choose between getting possessed and becoming a meat puppet, or building characters which spend their time devoting the interesting option part of their customization selecting things to not get possessed.n If you chuck bombs, you need to have point blank shot, precise shot, and precise bomb... it's hard to have an effective bomb type alchemist without that.

The overall number of feat slots and options isn't a reflection of the number of actual choices you get with a build... sometimes your build simply does not work without certain things.

Yes, you can make an alchemist who doesn't fail ALL the time... or succeeds more.. but your build is basically completely set.

The cleric/druid over there? He's doing what he wanted to do anyway.

Let's do Rogue next. :-/


Wait, nevermind. Who cares if the Rogue gets dominated.

The Exchange 5/5

It's going to be a real pain in the arse to get my mammoth to learn how to activate the resonance power.

It was so much easier when it was a simple always on anti-evil dominate/possession effect.

I guess I'm going to have to activate it for her on occasion (but at least she'll still benefit from not having to eat/drink, which is a huge boon).

The Exchange

Beckman wrote:
Wait, nevermind. Who cares if the Rogue gets dominated.

My thoughts exactly. That 5 Wisdom is paying for my poison!

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Big Dumb Fighter wrote:
Silly birdman. Martial characters am not allowed to have good things. Fighter must be dumb so he be strong. Him getting feat that need good smarts would make too strong. Lore Wardumb much better now. And who need magic stone to help mind? Now silly barbarian need nerf.

Just because martials aren't allowed to have nice things doesn't mean that casters should be.

After all, fair is fair. Lore Warden just got taken out behind the toolshed for re-education and re-calibration, so let's take... I dunno... Specialist Wizards out there now.

...in the sake of fairness, of course.

You think "fair" is doing the same thing to both, that's not fair cause their starting points are different. Wizards have the assumption that they can break the laws of the universe, so none of the powers are out of line, they stay nicely in their box. Martials though, they love to try and leave their box, so they get "nerfed" to be put back into their box. The box of doing things that a normal human can do on Earth.

So it's only fair to nerf the martials leaving their box and do nothing to the casters who are politely staying in their box.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Beckman wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Thomas Hutchins wrote:


if 70% success with just a little investment

A trait, a feat, your species, that species alternate race trait, and 30% of your gold is not a little investment by any measure

And there is a very good argument for a 70% success rate not being very good. It comes up often enough that you wind up spending a fight every other session not getting to play your character.

I'll second that...

I get to choose between getting possessed and becoming a meat puppet, or building characters which spend their time devoting the interesting option part of their customization selecting things to not get possessed.n If you chuck bombs, you need to have point blank shot, precise shot, and precise bomb... it's hard to have an effective bomb type alchemist without that.

The overall number of feat slots and options isn't a reflection of the number of actual choices you get with a build... sometimes your build simply does not work without certain things.

Yes, you can make an alchemist who doesn't fail ALL the time... or succeeds more.. but your build is basically completely set.

The cleric/druid over there? He's doing what he wanted to do anyway.

Let's do Rogue next. :-/

Bomb alchemist, swap int and dex of other build. PBS and precise instead of Weapon finesse and toughness, You still have 2 leftover feats. Discovery's had 3 left over, so you now have 2 left over.

How is having 2 feats free and 2 discoveries free completely set?

And yes, you have a choice of being a meat puppet or trying to not be a meat puppet. Like you have a choice of having HP or not, being able to hit or not, having skills or not.

Rogue's being less capable of being fortified of the mind would lend itself to races with will save boosts if you wanted a solid will save and/or dipping into a good will save class. That's one of the main weaknesses for a rogue and there's not much class support for them overcoming it.

Scarab Sages 5/5

James Anderson wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Archetypes should not make the class strictly better, but rather be a parallel move at best.
I think I disagree with this. The class itself provides a baseline, but archetypes SHOULD make the class better at whatever you intend to be doing - in ways that penalize things you don't plan on doing.

I don't see how these two statements are at odds with one another.

A Lore Warden makes a better fighter at almost any fighter type build other than tank (and that's due to the armor proficiency loss). There is almost no reason not to take Lore Warden as your archetype if all you are going for is straight up look at mechanical differences with straight fighter and other archetypes.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Tallow wrote:
A Lore Warden makes a better fighter at almost any fighter type build other than tank (and that's due to the armor proficiency loss). There is almost no reason not to take Lore Warden as your archetype if all you are going for is straight up look at mechanical differences with straight fighter and other archetypes.

Ignoring simple +1 bonuses...Vikings can demoralize as a move action, Varisian Free Style Fighters get Martial Flexibility, Ustalavic Duelists and Armor Masters get the equivalent of dodge (without taking dodge, so they can stack that), Unbreakables get die hard and endurance, tacticians get skill points and a +1 to initiative, Polearm Masters can hit adjacent targets with polearms, Eldritch Guardians get a familiar without needing to go the skill-focus route, Drill Sergeants get tactician, Dragoons get two mounted feats for the price of one...

Simply put, your statement is not true.

Lore Wardens were good at what they did (and in my case I concur with Hillary, that is for providing skill points), but they are not "a better fighter at [sic] almost any fighter build". I should know, I have at least three of the above that are not lore wardens for the specific points noted.

Dark Archive 5/5 5/5

Tallow wrote:
A Lore Warden makes a better fighter at almost any fighter type build other than tank (and that's due to the armor proficiency loss). There is almost no reason not to take Lore Warden as your archetype if all you are going for is straight up look at mechanical differences with straight fighter and other archetypes.

According to you.

I will continue to play my Aldori Swordlord, my weapon master, my two-handed fighter, and my regular ol' fighter thank you very much.

I have never even considered creating a lore warden. I also have never purchased a clear spindle ioun stone.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
I will continue to play my Aldori Swordlord...

Everybody knows Aldori Swordlords suck though and can't do anything.

The Exchange 5/5 5/5

MisterSlanky wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
I will continue to play my Aldori Swordlord...
Everybody knows Aldori Swordlords suck though and can't do anything.

It is true. Brother Taco does suck at every thing. Brother Taco wonders why Brother Taco was made Venture Captain.

5/5 5/55/55/5

5 people marked this as a favorite.
Taco wrote:


It is true. Brother Taco does suck at every thing. Brother Taco wonders why Brother Taco was made Venture Captain.

Nepotism. He's someone important's brother. Thats why he's Brother Taco.

Scarab Sages 5/5

Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tallow wrote:
A Lore Warden makes a better fighter at almost any fighter type build other than tank (and that's due to the armor proficiency loss). There is almost no reason not to take Lore Warden as your archetype if all you are going for is straight up look at mechanical differences with straight fighter and other archetypes.

According to you.

I will continue to play my Aldori Swordlord, my weapon master, my two-handed fighter, and my regular ol' fighter thank you very much.

I have never even considered creating a lore warden. I also have never purchased a clear spindle ioun stone.

You'll note that I've said in other threads that I also have never made a Lore Warden.

Sovereign Court 5/5

Tallow wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tallow wrote:
A Lore Warden makes a better fighter at almost any fighter type build other than tank (and that's due to the armor proficiency loss). There is almost no reason not to take Lore Warden as your archetype if all you are going for is straight up look at mechanical differences with straight fighter and other archetypes.

According to you.

I will continue to play my Aldori Swordlord, my weapon master, my two-handed fighter, and my regular ol' fighter thank you very much.

I have never even considered creating a lore warden. I also have never purchased a clear spindle ioun stone.

You'll note that I've said in other threads that I also have never made a Lore Warden.

wait... has anyone still on this thread actually MADE a Lore Warden?

1/5

Muse. wrote:
Tallow wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Tallow wrote:
A Lore Warden makes a better fighter at almost any fighter type build other than tank (and that's due to the armor proficiency loss). There is almost no reason not to take Lore Warden as your archetype if all you are going for is straight up look at mechanical differences with straight fighter and other archetypes.

According to you.

I will continue to play my Aldori Swordlord, my weapon master, my two-handed fighter, and my regular ol' fighter thank you very much.

I have never even considered creating a lore warden. I also have never purchased a clear spindle ioun stone.

You'll note that I've said in other threads that I also have never made a Lore Warden.
wait... has anyone still on this thread actually MADE a Lore Warden?

*waves*

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Muse. wrote:
wait... has anyone still on this thread actually MADE a Lore Warden?

Hello!

I'm a trip / reposition focused librarian.

Which has me currently at 8 levels of Lore Warden

1/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Gudrun the Reader wrote:
Muse. wrote:
wait... has anyone still on this thread actually MADE a Lore Warden?

Hello!

I'm a trip / reposition focused librarian.

Which has me currently at 8 levels of Lore Warden

Feels like Fighters Anonymous in here

Hi, Gudrun!

Hello, I play Marc Langley (Earl in Taldor), and I'm a Lore Warden. I focus on Trip/Disarm, with a minor in Grapple.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
shaventalz wrote:
Gudrun the Reader wrote:
Muse. wrote:
wait... has anyone still on this thread actually MADE a Lore Warden?

Hello!

I'm a trip / reposition focused librarian.

Which has me currently at 8 levels of Lore Warden

Feels like Fighters Anonymous in here

Hi, Gudrun!

Hello, I play Marc Langley (Earl in Taldor), and I'm a Lore Warden. I focus on Trip/Disarm, with a minor in Grapple.

I have a number of Lore Wardens, I like skill points and fun builds that need Combat Expertise for silly feats.

Sovereign Court 5/5

ok, so why aren't you posting, instead of the guys who aren't playing Lore Wardens?

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Muse. wrote:
ok, so why aren't you posting, instead of the guys who aren't playing Lore Wardens?

I am, I really hope they grandfather in the old version. It will be incredibly annoying to rebuild characters if this nerf does not do that. I honestly would be fine with the new build IF they did not lose the 2nd level feat on top of the other changes.

Grand Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Society Subscriber
RSX Raver wrote:
Muse. wrote:
ok, so why aren't you posting, instead of the guys who aren't playing Lore Wardens?
I am, I really hope they grandfather in the old version. It will be incredibly annoying to rebuild characters if this nerf does not do that. I honestly would be fine with the new build IF they did not lose the 2nd level feat on top of the other changes.

I'm hoping for either both archetypes to co-exist (which is unlikely) or grandfathering.

If the new one is going to be the only one I hope there's a full rebuild option, so that I can ditch lore Warden (and the associated skills I've taken) for a non archetyped fighter with advanced armor/weapon training to boost skills and other stuff. (I just wish armor specialization was legal, but I guess we can't have fighters having higher AC than other classes).

The Exchange 1/5 5/5

"So I was a merchant of modest means when the dragon-stuff started taking hold, and I decided it was best to do some book learning about my particular issues. Becoming a Lore Warden seemed the ideal fit, given this tail that I've got going on most of the time.

Really hoping I don't have t' swap it out, I like the chance to know a bunch of things in a bunch of different fields and still feel reasonably competent in a fight -- note I didn't say 'godlike' or anything crazy like that.

I mean, I'm not a wizard or a barbarian or something like that..."

Ramon is a Dragon Mystery Oracle/Lore Warden. It is a fervent hope that the 'original' Lore Warden might be retained, as it fits the character better than the 'New COKE' version.

4/5

shaventalz wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

A level of Core Monk will give you +2 to all saves, IUS, and your Wisdom bonus to AC. Highly underrated if saves are your main concern.

Assuming you're unarmored and have a class level to spare, sure. And don't mind either being Lawful or taking one of a couple specific archetypes. And are fine with the flavor (tell me again why your courtier suddenly decided to start breaking boards with her face?)

I have a dwarf sorceror (the wisdom based wildblooded AT) who spent a level studying with the Zen archers to learn to shoot better. His AC went way up, saves increased, and he got a free precise shot for his ray spells.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Muse. wrote:
wait... has anyone still on this thread actually MADE a Lore Warden?

Yes

Nefreet wrote:
If the Lore Warden gets changed, that'd be the 7th time I've had to fix my Eldritch Knight due to errata, Lol.

My Roland character got hit with the following Errata: Maneuver Master, Jingasa, Lore Warden, Tribal Scars for HP.

MadScientistWorking wrote:
People did a two level dip for Combat Expertise?

I have used Lore Warden on 5 PFS characters. All were dips of 2 or 3 levels. I've also never build a fighter without Lore Warden levels.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Muse. wrote:
ok, so why aren't you posting, instead of the guys who aren't playing Lore Wardens?

Because Lore Warden contributed to having 12 feats by level 7. That was too good (3 feats for 2 levels).

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

And Human gives you 2 feats for 1 level. How horribly broken :)

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
And Human gives you 2 feats for 1 level. How horribly broken :)

To be fair, your joke has some truth. There are a lot of people who exclusively play human for that reason.

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yup, and that's sorta my reasoning behind Lore Warden not being a problem in that regard.

1/5 5/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
And Human gives you 2 feats for 1 level. How horribly broken :)

Clearly Humans need to be a Boon-only race.

Can we make this happen please? They are way too O/P and commonplace.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Yup, and that's sorta my reasoning behind Lore Warden not being a problem in that regard.

I believe it is apparent how human is ok, but a class that dominates all optimized builds (without any other archetype that is close second) isn't ok.

But it isn't apparent to you.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Tetori. Maneuver Master.

The Exchange 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Kentucky—Lexington

Jurassic Pratt wrote:
Tetori.

I've seen Tetori monks for at least 3 of the yearly PVP at Gencon, and they have never had a chance of survival. So I don't consider them all that interesting on eiter 1 vs 1 or 1 vs group perspectives.

Grand Lodge

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Cuz pvp is how you judge a character? That doesn't seem very appropriate for a number of reasons.

And just because you don't find them interesting doesn't mean it's not on par power wise for what it does.


I assume that we will be allowed to sell back the clear spindle ioun stone and any other items based upon or derived from acquisition of the stone we purchased at full cost?

Are we also going to be allowed to retrain feats and traits for free since that is what people are saying we should have done before relying on this item?

5/5 5/55/55/5

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
And Human gives you 2 feats for 1 level. How horribly broken :)

Clearly Humans need to be a Boon-only race.

Can we make this happen please? They are way too O/P and commonplace.

I don't mind the power level i just wonder how a race that can't see at night hasn't been wiped out by races that can. Humans are completely unrealistic...

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Jurassic Pratt wrote:
And Human gives you 2 feats for 1 level. How horribly broken :)

Clearly Humans need to be a Boon-only race.

Can we make this happen please? They are way too O/P and commonplace.

I don't mind the power level i just wonder how a race that can't see at night hasn't been wiped out by races that can. Humans are completely unrealistic...

You wanna talk unrealistic races. Big cats don't get dark vision in Pathfinder.

5/5 5/55/55/5

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Jurassic Pratt wrote:


You wanna talk unrealistic races. Big cats don't get dark vision in Pathfinder.

They have lowlight which.. is what they have. The game really doesn't differentiate that well between good low light and bad low light as it's written by night blind humans.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I guess Pathfinder's dark vision doesn't correlate to the vision of night hunters like many big cats and birds of prey like owls?

If that's the case then the dark vision races should rule the world.

1/5 5/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I guess Pathfinder's dark vision doesn't correlate to the vision of night hunters like many big cats and birds of prey like owls?

If that's the case then the dark vision races should rule the world.

Right?

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I guess Pathfinder's dark vision doesn't correlate to the vision of night hunters like many big cats and birds of prey like owls?

If that's the case then the dark vision races should rule the world.

Low light correlates to night Hunter darkvision. Darkvision correlates to night vision googles????? That isn't even completely correct but the way it used to work was you are looking at the light we give off instead of bouncing off. Dungeons and Dragons is goofy. And yes I say D&D because that isn't Paizo's fault.

Even humans being "the best" is a D&D thing. Mind you Paizo's made that ridiculously debatable but the legacy of that is old too.

1/5

andreww wrote:
supervillan wrote:
More nerfs incoming? Really?

Adventurer's Guide reprints a number of things. The resonant powers of clear spindle, the suppress charms and compulsion spell, the lore warden fighter archetype amongst them. As yet we do not know how PFS will handle these changes as we don't have the additional resources entry yet.

If I was to guess I suspect changes to items and spells will be implemented with the option to sell back or retrain, changes to class will come in but existing characters may be grandfathered in.

Yes we do. PFS embraces all nerfs.

Liberty's Edge 3/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Nebraska—Omaha

tomas rosenberg wrote:

I assume that we will be allowed to sell back the clear spindle ioun stone and any other items based upon or derived from acquisition of the stone we purchased at full cost?

Are we also going to be allowed to retrain feats and traits for free since that is what people are saying we should have done before relying on this item?

These are the big questions that has not been answered yet because we are waiting on the official word from campaign leadership.

Please stand by.

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