A discussion on the clear spindle ioun stone's Resonant effects and legality in PFS


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Scarab Sages 5/5

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I often play with a Caster Type who starts each game by asking the Low-Will-Save Choppy types... "So, is it OK if I just cast Dominate Person on you now? That way, later when the monster Dominates you it has to "fight" me to control your actions..." !Big Smile! "I'll just COMMAND you to 'be yourself' and 'do what you would normally do'".

And they renew the spell at the end of the day each day (as long as they haven't used it in combat that day). Just to ensure that they maintain it even when the Choppy type makes that '20' save with his 'daily' Will Save.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

If the Lore Warden gets changed, that'd be the 7th time I've had to fix my Eldritch Knight due to errata, Lol.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
If the Lore Warden gets changed, that'd be the 7th time I've had to fix my Eldritch Knight due to errata, Lol.

I'm really crossing my fingers on a grandfathering on Lore Wardens. As it stands, they took it out back and beat it within an inch of its life with the nerf bat.

I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.

Silver Crusade 1/5

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I have a Level 4 PC that is intended to go into Lore Warden from level 7 onwards. If the nerf bat removes the archetype's aptitude for combat manoeuvres then the build collapses. I'd need to retrain two levels to get to an inferior approximation of the character design goal.

I fear this may be yet another instance of new material invalidating my prior choices.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Maybe you've put so much trust in your spindlefinder that you thought you could get away with focusing all-out on attack, instead of a more healthy balance between attack and defense?

As they've pointed out, the game makes it really hard for defense to be effective. Not only is there only 1 offense to pour your resources into vs 99 ways to say you died, but offense can be inconstant and still be effective while defense cannot. Hitting 2 out of 3 times is still going to drop the monster eventually. Saving is not.

The problem with your logic is that if your will save is that bad then you potentially are just useless regardless. Sure you won't be mind controlled but odds are likely you aren't contributing to combat either. Its why I don't really mind the ioun stone nerf because from experience it never really fixed the underlying issue that your character is useless at the drop of a hat.

Weirdly I tend to find the issue much more of a quirk of the PFS since a good support character generally speaking swings any prevailing issues back in favor of the players.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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MisterSlanky wrote:


I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.

Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?

It's... not ideal. :/

I've scrapped my planned Thunder And Fang lore warden - losing access to my 2nd-level combat feat slows me down too much.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

BigNorseWolf wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:


I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.
Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?

People did a two level dip for Combat Expertise?

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
MadScientistWorking wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:


I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.
Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?
People did a two level dip for Combat Expertise?

Combat Expertise without having to pay the 'Int' Tax, I would imagine?


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Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Combat Expertise without having to pay the 'Int' Tax, I would imagine?

That's fine if you really want Combat Expertise itself, but it doesn't actually help with Int prerequisites for later feats.

If that's what you were there for, you'd be better off dipping kinetic knight.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:


I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.
Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?
People did a two level dip for Combat Expertise?
Combat Expertise without having to pay the 'Int' Tax, I would imagine?

What else besides feinting is it the only option though? Not trying to be combative because I know it exists but I just don't know enough about martials.

EDIT:
Whoops as pointed out above you still need Int 13.
Isabelle Lee wrote:
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:
Combat Expertise without having to pay the 'Int' Tax, I would imagine?

That's fine if you really want Combat Expertise itself, but it doesn't actually help with Int prerequisites for later feats.

If that's what you were there for, you'd be better off dipping kinetic knight.

Brawler or Dirty Fighting are other options. Dirty fighting is better in every way to Combat Expertise for Combat Maneuvers. Other abilities you need it but still Brawler's maneuver Training makes it an amazing 1 level dip.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
What else besides feinting is it the only option though?

In addition to feinting, Combat Expertise and its attentant Int requirement grant access to about half the combat maneuvers - disarm, trip, steal. That's just from the CRB; there's a few others out there.

That said, I left the Int requirement off of Strike True. Lore warden could get you there. ^_^

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:


I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.
Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?

The Lore Warden took a One-Two hit.

One:
Your level two feat is lost to gaining a "virtual" Combat Expertise feat (i.e. Combat Expertise for purposes of qualifying for other feats). You then get Combat Expertise at level 6. In essence you've lost a bonus feat (because it's now the mandated feat at level 2).

Interestingly, the new level you gain Combat Expertise is the level AFTER you qualify for the Student of War Prestige Class. When the Lore Warden was introduced, it was clearly meant as a pathway into Student of War; however, now if you were building a Student of War for entry at level 6, you have to shuffle levels if you wanted to actually obtain Combat Expertise, not just the virtual version.

Two:
They removed all bonuses to combat maneuvers.


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MadScientistWorking wrote:
Brawler or Dirty Fighting are other options. Dirty fighting is better in every way to Combat Expertise for Combat Maneuvers. Other abilities you need it but still Brawler's maneuver Training makes it an amazing 1 level dip.

Dirty Fighting is, indeed, fabulous. I only mention kinetic knight because... well, narcissism, partly. But also because it actively counts as Combat Expertise for prerequisites. So unlike a brawler, you don't actually need to take Combat Expertise - you can jump directly to Improved X.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Isabelle Lee wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
What else besides feinting is it the only option though?

In addition to feinting, Combat Expertise and its attentant Int requirement grant access to about half the combat maneuvers - disarm, trip, steal. That's just from the CRB; there's a few others out there.

That said, I left the Int requirement off of Strike True. Lore warden could get you there. ^_^

I meant only option as in Dirty Fighting is specifically worded to ignore most requirement for Combat Maneuver feats.
Isabelle Lee wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Brawler or Dirty Fighting are other options. Dirty fighting is better in every way to Combat Expertise for Combat Maneuvers. Other abilities you need it but still Brawler's maneuver Training makes it an amazing 1 level dip.
Dirty Fighting is, indeed, fabulous. I only mention kinetic knight because... well, narcissism, partly. But also because it actively counts as Combat Expertise for prerequisites. So unlike a brawler, you don't actually need to take Combat Expertise - you can jump directly to Improved X.

Yeah Im not knocking the Kinetic Knight. Its a good archetype but my point was more that I don't know enough about mechanics and really didn't know what a two level dip got you that as you pointed out is easier to get through other ways.

EDIT:
Oooooooooo..... I really need to look into how the Kinetic Knight works to see if Gate Breaker could stack with it.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber
MisterSlanky wrote:
Your level two feat is lost to gaining a "virtual" Combat Expertise feat (i.e. Combat Expertise for purposes of qualifying for other feats). You then get Combat Expertise at level 6. In essence you've lost a bonus feat (because it's now the mandated feat at level 2).

And that's on top of losing (the increasingly relevant) bravery.

MisterSlanky wrote:
Two: They removed all bonuses to combat maneuvers.

This isn't exactly true; it just uses a workaround now instead of spelling it out. One of the swords secrets grants you access to the brawler's maneuver training. It's still far less than the original, of course.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:
Two: They removed all bonuses to combat maneuvers.
This isn't exactly true; it just uses a workaround now instead of spelling it out. One of the swords secrets grants you access to the brawler's maneuver training. It's still far less than the original, of course.

Also true-ish.

They removed the "general abilities" mandated by Lore Warden and turned them into specific abilities you chose at levels 3, 8, 12, 16, and 20.

Manuever training is one of these things (granting you up to a +5 now instead of the +8 from the previous). This also though means that other abilities, while possible to obtain earlier (i.e. picking Hair's Breadth at 3 instead of 11), may also be weakened (such as hair's breath now having a daily limit to its use).

I think it's fair to say that the current Lore Warden is an entirely different AT than the previous Lore Warden, which is a bit part of the concern.

Silver Crusade 1/5

MisterSlanky wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
MisterSlanky wrote:


I'm fairly certain my character that uses the AT will cease to function as designed if it goes through, which would mean trying to completely re-envision it.
Did the lore warden itself get that nerf bat that badly or just the two level dip?

The Lore Warden took a One-Two hit.

One:
Your level two feat is lost to gaining a "virtual" Combat Expertise feat (i.e. Combat Expertise for purposes of qualifying for other feats). You then get Combat Expertise at level 6. In essence you've lost a bonus feat (because it's now the mandated feat at level 2).

Interestingly, the new level you gain Combat Expertise is the level AFTER you qualify for the Student of War Prestige Class. When the Lore Warden was introduced, it was clearly meant as a pathway into Student of War; however, now if you were building a Student of War for entry at level 6, you have to shuffle levels if you wanted to actually obtain Combat Expertise, not just the virtual version.

Two:
They removed all bonuses to combat maneuvers.

These changes would remove the key reasons for my planned build to use the archetype. I'd need to rebuild, even though I likely won't have levels in fighter yet.

I seriously hope campaign leadership leave the nerf bat in the locker, the campaign doesn't need this.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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*torches pitchforks, get em here , you know prices are just going to skyrocket soon...*

1/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
*torches pitchforks, get em here , you know prices are just going to skyrocket soon...*

Ooh, nice. Where'd you get the stats for a pitchfork? Is that from Adventurer's Armory 2?

I have to concur with supervillain, though. There are a lot of things that go into a build to support an option that gets changed. I might have gotten lucky; without grandfathering (and instead rebuilding all fighter levels), my Lore Warden is only out a trait I wouldn't have otherwise chosen and a feat of dubious utility. Still, that's not directly related to the clear spindle (the topic of this thread.)


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shaventalz wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
*torches pitchforks, get em here , you know prices are just going to skyrocket soon...*
Ooh, nice. Where'd you get the stats for a pitchfork? Is that from Adventurer's Armory 2?

Tragically, statting up pitchforks as weapons didn't even occur to me.

Next time. ^_^

Dark Archive

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Isabelle Lee wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
*torches pitchforks, get em here , you know prices are just going to skyrocket soon...*
Ooh, nice. Where'd you get the stats for a pitchfork? Is that from Adventurer's Armory 2?

Tragically, statting up pitchforks as weapons didn't even occur to me.

Next time. ^_^

Clearly a Ustalav themed Player Companion needs to be made just so we can have the pitchfork and angry mob mechanics.

1/5

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RSX Raver wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
*torches pitchforks, get em here , you know prices are just going to skyrocket soon...*
Ooh, nice. Where'd you get the stats for a pitchfork? Is that from Adventurer's Armory 2?

Tragically, statting up pitchforks as weapons didn't even occur to me.

Next time. ^_^

Clearly a Ustalav themed Player Companion needs to be made just so we can have the pitchfork and angry mob mechanics.

Maybe with an archetype dedicated to dual-wielding said weapons?

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

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RSX Raver wrote:


Clearly a Ustalav themed Player Companion needs to be made just so we can have the pitchfork and angry mob mechanics.

Angry mobs of golarion?

Dark Archive

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shaventalz wrote:
RSX Raver wrote:
Isabelle Lee wrote:
shaventalz wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
*torches pitchforks, get em here , you know prices are just going to skyrocket soon...*
Ooh, nice. Where'd you get the stats for a pitchfork? Is that from Adventurer's Armory 2?

Tragically, statting up pitchforks as weapons didn't even occur to me.

Next time. ^_^

Clearly a Ustalav themed Player Companion needs to be made just so we can have the pitchfork and angry mob mechanics.
Maybe with an archetype dedicated to dual-wielding said weapons?

Pitchfork and Torch dual wielding, commoner archetype called One of the Herd.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

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Two characters I expect to have bad luck with over this..

My 'Bard Beater' Tower Shield Specialist with her 'average' wisdom of 10. The spindle has saved a LOT of my party bards. A certain arachnid named Pathfinder turncoat told me to 'take care' of the bard that had helped out the party in three rounds I nearly Non-lethally killed her. That and a certain free game day event the next week, where I critically pants one pard and sundered another's MW instrument and Rapier, taught me the value of looking options to help my will save of +7 vs DCs in the mid 20s

Ironically the Lore Warden/UC Rogue most likely won't be hurt too bad as he gets 4th level LW as his next his next level. I'll miss expertise as a way to ease his AC woes but I can forgo Cunning as my next feat for it, or untraine one of my other feats
A few more Knowledge points and Know thy Enemy @ 3rd is not a trade off


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Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Okay, I'll bite.

It's good that the Spindle is (probably) going. It was bad for the game.

The risk of being "taken over" is part of the game. It's a key ability for various schools of magic and classes that use them. It's also a key ability of several classic monsters.

The Ioun Stone is forcing authors to put in questionable choices in adventures to circumvent it; labelling something which is obviously a possession effect as a "curse" just to get around it, or "can't believe he's not Evil" chaotic neutral villains.

If you're worried that you'll one-shot other PCs if possessed, maybe it's a moment to reflect on the soundness of your character building style. Maybe you've put so much trust in your spindlefinder that you thought you could get away with focusing all-out on attack, instead of a more healthy balance between attack and defense?

Let me first say that I agree with part of what you have said - I think an interactive game is better than a non-interactive one from a balance perspective. So, for instance it's better if you have to roll a roll to do something to another player (or stop a player from doing something) than if you don't have to roll anything.

HOWEVER, this is why I think the current situation post-removal from the clear spindle ioun stone is worse.

1. Now people pretty much auto-fail, and don't succeed a lot of the time even if they spend resources on it if they're certain classes.
2. Having your character taken over is not fun.
3. Killing other PC characters with your character isn't fun.
4. Being killed by other PC characters isn't fun.

An alchemist has no reason to have Wisdom, but let's say you have a 12 in it. You're level 9 and you buy a cloak +3 and +1 morale ioun stone. You've got a +7 to save. You fail on a 1-12 on DC 20, which is a 60% fail rate. And realistically, let's say you have a 10 wisdom (did not dump) and have a Dex mutagen up, you're looking at a 70% fail rate.

On the flip side, if you're a level 9 caster, you cast a level 5 spell, you started with 20 in your stat, increased it 2 times and have 2x spell focus. That's DC23 with no metamagics or other shinnanigans. It's pretty easy to get to an unsaveable save DC.

I've seen characters not able to make will saves on a 19 in 7-11 in PFS. Granted, those characters are not without guilt... but if trying and spending a lot of gold on saves gets you a 35% pass chance, I can understand why some people pass it up.

I feel like there should be something to stop you from murdering everyone around you. Why should they print 'No PVP' in PFS, then basically create (fairly unavoidable for some characters) PVP through the environment? It's the same end result!

In the absence of anything else being printed, UMD and magic circle 10ft seems like the choice now :-/

I understand why the 'I'm immune' response annoys people, but the, 'I can't save except on a 20' phenomenon is also troublesome. It indicates that even with buying help to their save, the character would still have a hard time passing.

4/5

Beckman wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:

Okay, I'll bite.

It's good that the Spindle is (probably) going. It was bad for the game.

The risk of being "taken over" is part of the game. It's a key ability for various schools of magic and classes that use them. It's also a key ability of several classic monsters.

The Ioun Stone is forcing authors to put in questionable choices in adventures to circumvent it; labelling something which is obviously a possession effect as a "curse" just to get around it, or "can't believe he's not Evil" chaotic neutral villains.

If you're worried that you'll one-shot other PCs if possessed, maybe it's a moment to reflect on the soundness of your character building style. Maybe you've put so much trust in your spindlefinder that you thought you could get away with focusing all-out on attack, instead of a more healthy balance between attack and defense?

Let me first say that I agree with part of what you have said - I think an interactive game is better than a non-interactive one from a balance perspective. So, for instance it's better if you have to roll a roll to do something to another player (or stop a player from doing something) than if you don't have to roll anything.

HOWEVER, this is why I think the current situation post-removal from the clear spindle ioun stone is worse.

1. Now people pretty much auto-fail, and don't succeed a lot of the time even if they spend resources on it if they're certain classes.
2. Having your character taken over is not fun.
3. Killing other PC characters with your character isn't fun.
4. Being killed by other PC characters isn't fun.

An alchemist has no reason to have Wisdom, but let's say you have a 12 in it. You're level 9 and you buy a cloak +3 and +1 morale ioun stone. You've got a +7 to save. You fail on a 1-12 on DC 20, which is a 60% fail rate. And realistically, let's say you have a 10 wisdom (did not dump) and have a Dex mutagen up, you're looking at a 70% fail rate.

On the flip side, if you're a level 9 caster, you...

I will note that the only time as a GM I saw a character kill another character it was a confusion effect which a clear spindle would not help.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Beckman wrote:


An alchemist has no reason to have Wisdom, but let's say you have a 12 in it. You're level 9 and you buy a cloak +3 and +1 morale ioun stone. You've got a +7 to save. You fail on a 1-12 on DC 20, which is a 60% fail rate. And realistically, let's say you have a 10 wisdom (did not dump) and have a Dex mutagen up, you're looking at a 70% fail rate.

Wait a second. I would claim your are trying to just create a cheesey alchemist build but you are missing the cheesey gooey parts that's inherently increases Will.


MadScientistWorking wrote:


Wait a second. I would claim your are trying to just create a cheesey alchemist build but you are missing the cheesey gooey parts that's inherently increases Will.

I mean, I hardly think an alchemist which isn't maxing Wisdom classifies as 'cheesy'. The alchemist could be doing ANYTHING, he's just not maxing will. He was basically just born into a class without a good will save...

Perhaps Alchemist isn't the best example... but there are a lot of classes with bad will saves. Gunslingers, for instance. 'oops, Gunslinger is possessed'.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Florida—Jacksonville aka Kyrie Ebonblade,

Beckman wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:


Wait a second. I would claim your are trying to just create a cheesey alchemist build but you are missing the cheesey gooey parts that's inherently increases Will.

I mean, I hardly think an alchemist which isn't maxing Wisdom classifies as 'cheesy'. The alchemist could be doing ANYTHING, he's just not maxing will. He was basically just born into a class without a good will save...

Perhaps Alchemist isn't the best example... but there are a lot of classes with bad will saves. Gunslingers, for instance. 'oops, Gunslinger is possessed'.

Try Alchemist Gunslinger.. bleh.. 11th level.. +9, with Iron Will and Cloak of Resistance +2

Shadow Lodge

Lots of people went 2 level Dip into Lore Warden for Totally different reasons ....
1 was the Skill bonus
2 they didn't loose their Fighter lvl 2 Bonus Feat I could care less about expretise

TBH Im Really hoping that old style Lore wardens are grandfathered in ... the Retroactive changes because of this are gonna be steep Especially for high level PC's

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

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Beckman wrote:
An alchemist has no reason to have Wisdom, but let's say you have a 12 in it. You're level 9 and you buy a cloak +3 and +1 morale ioun stone. You've got a +7 to save. You fail on a 1-12 on DC 20, which is a 60% fail rate. And realistically, let's say you have a 10 wisdom (did not dump) and have a Dex mutagen up, you're looking at a 70% fail rate.

to me just buying the cloak with no other investment means you want a chance to succeed, but will likely fail the check. Which your 70% fail rate shows.

But if you take some steps to fix it you can do well. Go half elf or half-orc for +2 to will save, grab a will save trait, pick up iron will and now that 70% failure is down to 45% on our bad save. Grab a hedgehog tumor familiar for another +2 and we're looking at 35% failure rate on our bad save and if half elf, 25% against enchantments.

cost us, picking a good race, a trait, a feat, a discovery and we've cut our failure rate in half.

plus alchemists have heroism in class, and with how amazing that is you should have that up lots of the time, so now we're at 25% failure rate and 15% for enchantments with our half-elf.

bad saves are a choice, 13,000gp and not tanking wisdom is not "trying and spending lots of gold". Yes you've spent 1/4 of your gold on it, that's good as it's 1/3 of the stuff you spend money on (attacks, AC, saves). But other than that you haven't tried at all. If you spend 1/5 of your feats, 1/4 of your discoveries, and some race bonus or wisdom points and now we've tried to fix our saves and look, we have great success rate with our bad save.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Thomas Hutchins wrote:


But if you take some steps to fix it you can do well. Go half elf or half-orc for +2 to will save, grab a will save trait, pick up iron will and now that 70% failure is down to 45% on our bad save. Grab a hedgehog tumor familiar for another +2 and we're looking at 35% failure rate on our bad save and if half elf, 25% against enchantments.

cost us, picking a good race, a trait, a feat, a discovery and we've cut our failure rate in half.

Okay, so half the reason of playing a given character(or more) eliminated because they don't fit *the ideal Will Save Power Curve*. That sounds truly expensive, if you ask me.

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
plus alchemists have heroism in class, and with how amazing that is you should have that up lots of the time, so now we're at 25% failure rate and 15% for enchantments with our half-elf.

However, Heroism doesn't stack with other morale bonusi, does it? Am I misremembering it?

Thomas Hutchins wrote:
bad saves are **EDITED FOR GENERAL USE** NOT **/EDIT** a choice, 13,000gp and not tanking wisdom is not "trying and spending lots of gold". Yes you've spent 1/4 of your gold on it, that's good as it's 1/3 of the stuff you spend money on (attacks, AC, saves). But other than that you haven't tried at all. If you spend 1/5 of your feats, 1/4 of your discoveries, and some race bonus or wisdom points and now we've tried to fix our saves and look, we have great success rate with our bad save.

Not everyone can manage to pull that off, so presuming that it's just a matter of 'not trying' because they don't use 'the perfect race' 'the perfect gear' and the 'perfect build' is not very community building.

Please show me, as an avid player of Tengu, how to make this work without sacrificing anything vitally important, thank you.

Shadow Lodge 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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Thomas Hutchins wrote:
Beckman wrote:
An alchemist has no reason to have Wisdom, but let's say you have a 12 in it. You're level 9 and you buy a cloak +3 and +1 morale ioun stone. You've got a +7 to save. You fail on a 1-12 on DC 20, which is a 60% fail rate. And realistically, let's say you have a 10 wisdom (did not dump) and have a Dex mutagen up, you're looking at a 70% fail rate.

to me just buying the cloak with no other investment means you want a chance to succeed, but will likely fail the check. Which your 70% fail rate shows.

But if you take some steps to fix it you can do well. Go half elf or half-orc for +2 to will save, grab a will save trait, pick up iron will and now that 70% failure is down to 45% on our bad save. Grab a hedgehog tumor familiar for another +2 and we're looking at 35% failure rate on our bad save and if half elf, 25% against enchantments.

cost us, picking a good race, a trait, a feat, a discovery and we've cut our failure rate in half.

plus alchemists have heroism in class, and with how amazing that is you should have that up lots of the time, so now we're at 25% failure rate and 15% for enchantments with our half-elf.

bad saves are a choice, 13,000gp and not tanking wisdom is not "trying and spending lots of gold". Yes you've spent 1/4 of your gold on it, that's good as it's 1/3 of the stuff you spend money on (attacks, AC, saves). But other than that you haven't tried at all. If you spend 1/5 of your feats, 1/4 of your discoveries, and some race bonus or wisdom points and now we've tried to fix our saves and look, we have great success rate with our bad save.

And then you are not playing the character you want to play, just the cookie-cutter character the errata forces you to play.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

Wei Ji the Learner
What is vitally important? And I'm assuming we're still with the dex based alchemist, if so, what is the point of the build?

Morale bonuses don't stack, but there's the Cracked Pale Green Prism +1 competence bonus on saving throws so no conflict of types.

So you pick a different race, and end at 35% failure chance on our bad save, still very much improved over the 70% failure rate proposed originally.

Like if you want to play someone with bad saves cause it's different that's fine, but it's your choice to sacrifice saves. You're not stuck with sucking at a bad will save cause of class and no wisdom reliance.

So give me the build, the vitally important stuff, and I'll make it have good saves.

Venture-Agent, Utah—Provo aka Chess Pwn

lv9 has about 46,000 to work with.
I'm assuming natural attack dex based melee alchemist, tengu right?

20,000 for dex belt and AoMF agile and something

9,000 for saves +3 cloak not getting the Cracked Pale Green Prism yet cause we're getting...

4,000 int headband, we're an alchemist, we like the int.

11,000 for AC armor +3 and ring of protect

leaves 2,000gp for other stuff and not having all the gold.
Stats are 10/18/12/14/14/8 starting

feats are weapon finesse, iron will, toughness, x, x

discoveries are tumor familiar,x,x,x

take a trait for +1 will save

at lv9 you're looking at 3+3+1+2+2-1= will save of +10, +12 with heroism. Against DC 20 you have 45% chance to fail pre heroism, 35% with heroism. This is equal to a cleric lv9 with +3 cloak and 16 wisdom. This is putting us around what most clerics, wizards, and other classes that have a good will save are at.

this leaves three discoveries, two feats, and a trait left over for whatever you want. Maybe piranha strike for one? But I don't see anything vital or critical we're sacrificing for this build. +13 will save didn't require any perfect race, gear or build for this alchemist. All it required was choosing to build a character to compensate for their poor save. Tumor protector familiar's are all the rage with alchemists, so why not fix the will save with it!

The Exchange 5/5 ⦵⦵ Venture-Lieutenant, North Carolina—Charlotte aka eddv

My two cents here is that the main problem is not in the item but the overly liberal interpretation of Protection vs Evil.

However given how that liberal application of the power of that spell it needed nerfed because Prot vs Evil is actually too powerful to be a first level spell. The +2 to AC and saves would be good enough but the secondary effects have always been a bit overpowered.

5/5

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Beckman wrote:

On the flip side, if you're a level 9 caster, you cast a level 5 spell, you started with 20 in your stat, increased it 2 times and have 2x spell focus. That's DC23 with no metamagics or other shinnanigans. It's pretty easy to get to an unsaveable save DC.

While this is often true of PC's we are talking here about opposition in PFS scenarios. These sort of numbers are almost unheard of in PFS material, certainly in a 5-9. Even with something like Bonekeep 3 you are pretty much looking at DC21 for the most dangerous enemies and Bonekeep is designed to be deadly. Most scenarios have much lower DC's.

I ran Blakros Connection last night and the highest DC in the entire place was 19 with most being 14-17. You shouldn't completely neglect your saves in PFS but it doesn't take much investment to keep them at a reasonable level of success. Personally I prioritise them over other forms of defence because failing a save can leave you sitting out large portions of the game not doing much but that is a reality of the 3.x/Pathfinder system.

5/5

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James Anderson wrote:
And then you are not playing the character you want to play, just the cookie-cutter character the errata forces you to play.

This change, assuming it affects PFS, doesn't force you to make this change. Neglecting your will save has always been a bad idea because things like confusion and fear effects exist. You can continue to do just the same except that now you might also be dominated if an NPC ever manages to get such a cast off. Which is unlikely.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
andreww wrote:


This change, assuming it affects PFS, doesn't force you to make this change. Neglecting your will save has always been a bad idea because things like confusion and fear effects exist. You can continue to do just the same except that now you might also be dominated if an NPC ever manages to get such a cast off. Which is unlikely.

...you haven't played at the tables I've played at. It's more likely than not, based on my play experience...

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Thomas Hutchins wrote:

Wei Ji the Learner

What is vitally important? And I'm assuming we're still with the dex based alchemist, if so, what is the point of the build?

Morale bonuses don't stack, but there's the Cracked Pale Green Prism +1 competence bonus on saving throws so no conflict of types.

So you pick a different race, and end at 35% failure chance on our bad save, still very much improved over the 70% failure rate proposed originally.

Like if you want to play someone with bad saves cause it's different that's fine, but it's your choice to sacrifice saves. You're not stuck with sucking at a bad will save cause of class and no wisdom reliance.

So give me the build, the vitally important stuff, and I'll make it have good saves.

Luck saves are easy enough to come by though so it's not like you can't pull the half orc trick. Hell on the extreme end of the spectrum the half orc trick can net you six rolls on a will save which I think is the most in the entire game.

Edit:
Though this is the character build that if the rules are what I think they are practically negates most save vs suck spells including dominate.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

A level of Core Monk will give you +2 to all saves, IUS, and your Wisdom bonus to AC. Highly underrated if saves are your main concern.

1/5

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pH unbalanced wrote:

A level of Core Monk will give you +2 to all saves, IUS, and your Wisdom bonus to AC. Highly underrated if saves are your main concern.

Assuming you're unarmored and have a class level to spare, sure. And don't mind either being Lawful or taking one of a couple specific archetypes. And are fine with the flavor (tell me again why your courtier suddenly decided to start breaking boards with her face?)

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
shaventalz wrote:
pH unbalanced wrote:

A level of Core Monk will give you +2 to all saves, IUS, and your Wisdom bonus to AC. Highly underrated if saves are your main concern.

Assuming you're unarmored and have a class level to spare, sure. And don't mind either being Lawful or taking one of a couple specific archetypes. And are fine with the flavor (tell me again why your courtier suddenly decided to start breaking boards with her face?)

Daddy made her take self-defense classes.

Shadow Lodge

Pathfinder and Specifically PFS have always been very heavy handed when it comes to "Must buy Items"

here are a few that come from the top of my head (Pre nerf obviously)

Jingasa
Bracers of Falcons Aim for Archers
Quickrunners shirt
and now the clear spindle ioun stone

just based on the track record Im not suprised to se this nerf
I AM however Suprised to see that this has sat for nearly 8 years before getting hit with the bat

1/5

I suspect the resonance change will hit more than just the clear spindle (and the dusty rose, which got halved.) If I don't have the Adventurer's Guide, will I still be allowed to use the other resonance powers from the original source?

A simple line in Additional Resources for Seeker of Secrets like "resonance powers from this source are no longer legal, use Adventurer's Guide" seems the most likely to me. Unfortunately, that would be essentially banning the un-changed content for people (like me) who don't want to pay for the same material twice.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

Wraith235 wrote:

Pathfinder and Specifically PFS have always been very heavy handed when it comes to "Must buy Items"

here are a few that come from the top of my head (Pre nerf obviously)

Jingasa
Bracers of Falcons Aim for Archers
Quickrunners shirt
and now the clear spindle ioun stone

just based on the track record Im not suprised to se this nerf
I AM however Suprised to see that this has sat for nearly 8 years before getting hit with the bat

The Jingasa has sat around for almost as long as the ioun stone. In fact out of the whole lot the Jingasa is the weirdest one considering that it took two reprintings for it to be nerfed as opposed to Ioun Stone which was one.

Scarab Sages 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Wraith235 wrote:

Pathfinder and Specifically PFS have always been very heavy handed when it comes to "Must buy Items"

here are a few that come from the top of my head (Pre nerf obviously)

Jingasa
Bracers of Falcons Aim for Archers
Quickrunners shirt
and now the clear spindle ioun stone

just based on the track record Im not suprised to se this nerf
I AM however Suprised to see that this has sat for nearly 8 years before getting hit with the bat

For the record, NONE of those items have been must buys for any of my characters. And I've survived quite well. Yes, even with a low Will Save.

Sovereign Court 5/5

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tallow wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

Pathfinder and Specifically PFS have always been very heavy handed when it comes to "Must buy Items"

here are a few that come from the top of my head (Pre nerf obviously)

Jingasa
Bracers of Falcons Aim for Archers
Quickrunners shirt
and now the clear spindle ioun stone

just based on the track record Im not suprised to se this nerf
I AM however Suprised to see that this has sat for nearly 8 years before getting hit with the bat

For the record, NONE of those items have been must buys for any of my characters. And I've survived quite well. Yes, even with a low Will Save.

yeah...

33 PCs, and not one of the items above. And I often dump WIS... all the way to a 6 on one PC... Not sure if I'm "playing the game right"...

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