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At a PFS table last week we were discussing factions. Many of them are close to evil or at least faux evil .
In this box I would place:
Cheliax- country run by devil worshipers, avid slavers.
Sczarni- the mob
Shadow Lodge- corrupt union
Now I don't think anyone particularly disagreed with these characterizations.
Then we got to the Grand Lodge, and they were described as 'company men' which seems accurate enough. A further point that I didn't agree with is that the company is corrupt. This view is held by people who found that some of the information revealed in Eyes of the Ten casts a bad light on the society(I have also played it, and didn't really come to that conclusion).
So, do people generally believe the Pathfinder Society is corrupt? I tend to think it is pretty much committed to the collection of knowledge, with good and evil taking a back seat in the way of concerns. They really are pretty above board about their goals. In my view that makes then not corrupt.
I'm wondering what the general view is.
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The Shadow Lodge isn't corrupt, that's just the propaganda spread by the establishment who doesn't want us to be unionized. Yeah, there was that shenanigans a few years ago, but Torch has the situation well in hand, and really, that just demonstrated the need for a sanctioned union to handle employee grievances, don't you think?
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Power corrupts. I think that, definitely, there is corruption in the Decemvirate. I think there are also most likely members of the Decemvirate who are pure of purpose.
I also disagree that the Shadow Lodge is a corrupt Union. There is definitely corruption within I just don't think it suffuses the faction such that the faction should be labeled as corrupt.
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I call the Shadow Lodge corrupt based on having read a lot of their missions(while judging). They are generally rather dark and underhanded. This doesn't even take into account that a whole season was based on them engaging in nefarious activities.
I would contrast this with Grand Lodge, which has some pretty straightforward missions, either collecting information, or sabotaging efforts from Aspis which is portrayed as the evil twin of the Pathfinder society.
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I call the Shadow Lodge corrupt based on having read a lot of their missions(while judging). They are generally rather dark and underhanded. This doesn't even take into account that a whole season was based on them engaging in nefarious activities.
I would contrast this with Grand Lodge, which has some pretty straightforward missions, either collecting information, or sabotaging efforts from Aspis which is portrayed as the evil twin of the Pathfinder society.
Which ones would those be? (Spoiler please to keep from spoiling other's)
I have thrown more Cheliax missions on my Shadow Lodge character than actual missions from Torch. Are they sometimes shady? Perhaps.. but they aren't as shady as the actions Torch did before he returned to the society. He typically doesn't ask you to kill folks outright, mostly it's working his 'network' discretely.
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Niccolò Machiavelli wrote a book called the prince. This book is an underhanded way to stay in power.
He wrote this because of the mass deaths and dangers of an unstable power and the fight for power with weak leaders. He wrote it to protect the people most damaged by wars and such. His intentions were very good, but underhanded. It does not make him evil.
As a side note the word Machiavellianism was taken from him and means "the employment of cunning and duplicity in statecraft or in general conduct" from the Oxford English Dictionary.
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The Grand Lodge faction is basically just extra homework for Pathfinders who can't be bothered working for other influences within the Society. So the question isn't "is the GL faction corrupt," it's "is the PFS as a whole corrupt?"
Which seems like a strange question. How can a private organization be corrupt? It doesn't have any guiding principles, it doesn't serve Teh Peepul, it's just a bunch of folks who like collecting powerful artifacts. Is that inherently suspect? Oh my, yes. But "corrupt?" I mean ... no more or less so than you would expect from the description, I think.
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Don't confuse season 2 Shadow Lodge with the Shadow Lodge of today. In season 2 the faction was splintered and undergoing a power struggle. Torch may employ nefarious, underhanded methods, but his goal is the protection of Pathfinders world wide. (Unless Paizo is not revealing the whole truth of Grandmaster Torch.)
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After playing the Runecarved Key I really was wondering this myself. Are the higher ups in PFS corrupt?
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You want dark faction missions?
I've been seeing a lot of pretty dark stuff for Andoran and Silver Crusade lately.
Meanwhile my Chelaxian and Sczarni characters typically seem to get item requests or "go deliver this message".
Who's really corrupt? :)
-j
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You want dark faction missions?
I've been seeing a lot of pretty dark stuff for Andoran and Silver Crusade lately.
Meanwhile my Chelaxian and Sczarni characters typically seem to get item requests or "go deliver this message".
Who's really corrupt? :)
-j
Couldn't agree more.
I usually play Cheliax, and it involves a lot of "bring me back X" or "Tell Y we're Z"
My Andoran friends? KILL X. FIND US SOME HOOKERS.
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Grand Lodge might be corrupt. It might want to release Rovagug. It might have an agenda that will save every living soul in Golarion.
We don't know because the Decemvirate is MASSIVELY UNREADABLE.
I still don't know if they're a bunch of tittering Absalom nobles, or if they're Jatembe's immortal 10 magic warriors, left to save Golarion Knights of the Round style from a plan set in place 10,000+ years ago.
Being a Grand Lodge pathfinder is like being religious. It requires a tonne of faith and a character that doesn't ask any further questions.
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I have only a single character who is a Shoanti Barbarian and member of the Shadow Lodge. Obviously he is being lumped in with Cheliax on those early missions but I think the Shadow Lodge does get the underhanded work because they are having to clean up after the Pathfinder Society. While my character is aligned with the Shadow Lodge simply because he was 'saved' by the lodge, he acts out of a sense of owing something to the Lodge and if a faction mission seems too 'wrong' he wont do it.
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The way that I figure that my Musket Master/Grenadier Kyrie wound up being part of the faction (Shadow Lodge) is that she is a 'legacy' member. Her parents and one side of her family have long had connections if not outright membership with the Pathfinders. She joined to find out what happened to her parents and looking to find the people who abused their station in the lodge that got them killed. She knows that somewhere out there is proof that someone put them in over their head.
I have this image of her 'visiting family' in Absalon by visiting the wall of names. She knows where her parent's names are and names of folks she'd dealt with.
Like the name of the retired Arms Master she killed in Ustalav by accident in the Midnight Mauler
She looks on her work with Torch as a way to get into records and people she'd never get access to as a lay member of the lodge and a way to keep folks up to date on who to watch. She knows some Venture Captains and Lodge administrators can't be trusted and by doing jobs for the Shadow Lodge she can help warn other members and clean up the mess that SOMEONE put into place with the schism that happened in Season 2. Her thoughts.. it's the Aspis consortium..and when she has proof..well her collection of badges will grow again.
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I will say, after completing the retirement arc, I had know doubt that the Grand lodge is corrupt. My final Lantern Lodge(Qadiran)faction mission involved--
Bluntly, I tend to see the Shadow lodge as the third 'good guy' faction rather then an 'evil' faction. Basically, all missions I've seen has involved looking out for the general welfare of Pathfinder agents, for example confirming the fate of a dead pathfinder, or making sure agents are protected.
I don't see anything particularly corrupt about them. Personally, I wish Scarni had been paired with Cheliax.
On the other hand, my Silver Crusader had serious problems with The Disappeared faction mission
Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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At a PFS table last week we were discussing factions. Many of them are close to evil or at least faux evil .
In this box I would place:
Cheliax- country run by devil worshipers, avid slavers.
Sczarni- the mob
Shadow Lodge- corrupt unionNow I don't think anyone particularly disagreed with these characterizations.
Then we got to the Grand Lodge, and they were described as 'company men' which seems accurate enough. A further point that I didn't agree with is that the company is corrupt. This view is held by people who found that some of the information revealed in Eyes of the Ten casts a bad light on the society(I have also played it, and didn't really come to that conclusion).So, do people generally believe the Pathfinder Society is corrupt? I tend to think it is pretty much committed to the collection of knowledge, with good and evil taking a back seat in the way of concerns. They really are pretty above board about their goals. In my view that makes then not corrupt.
I'm wondering what the general view is.
For some reason I'm not remembering the discussion going further than the Cheliax/Sczarni talk. I must have been distracted...
If I had to guess, though, I'd say it was Andrew who went off on the Grand Lodge being corrupt. I'm not sure why, but he takes great pleasure in applying a very cynical outlook to the Society as a whole. Don't take what he says as a proper sampling of players' attitudes. Remember how I kicked his character out of the briefing rather than deal with all the snide comments? I do that pretty regularly to him.
Personally, I think the Shadow Lodge started out okay. Somewhere along the line they started getting presented as underhanded and conniving. That frustrates me.
The same thing happened to Sheila Heidmarch. She could have been a cool character; one that everyone could get behind and actually be proud to work for. But no, for some reason the writers all decided she was a cold-hearted b~!&+.
This seems to be the pattern, to me. Introduce a character. Show a few interesting details about him/her. Then make sure to show how manipulative and/or autocratic they are in an effort to demonstrate that they are "powerful" and deserve "respect." Of course, we're all gamers. Doing that has exactly the opposite effect: we can't stand them and want to buck the trend.
So, to sum up: corrupt? No. Presented as a bunch of incompetent middle managers? Yes.
Heck, many folks in Golarion view Pathfinders in general as a bunch of greedy violent troublemakers.
They're not far off in many cases.
-j
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Heck, many folks in Golarion view Pathfinders in general as a bunch of greedy violent troublemakers.
They're not far off in many cases.
-j
And, yet, next season the Pathfinder Society will be on the front lines of the fight against the demonic hordes pouring out of the Worldwound. That should go over great, don't you think? (-;
Last weekend I sat down to a table where the initial mission is to buy a thing from a shopkeeper.
The scene ended with the shopkeeper and her guards dead, the shop looted, and the entire building in flames. The PCs did at least have the presence of mind to leave an Aspis Consortium badge at the crime scene.
To be fair, the shopkeeper did strike first, but still... some days I nickname the Society, "The League of Incredible Bastards".
I dunno, whoever wins the fight in season 5, it's the common folk who will suffer.
:)
-j
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On the other hand, my Silver Crusader had serious problems with The Disappeared faction mission ** spoiler omitted **
I figure Silver Crusaders should probably be expected to take a good long look at such art and use their judgment on whether it needs to go or not. But yeah, that does put Shelynites in a potential bind.
Unless it's like a known memetic/cognitohazard/infohazard or something...
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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On the other hand, my Silver Crusader had serious problems with The Disappeared faction mission ** spoiler omitted **I figure Silver Crusaders should probably be expected to take a good long look at such art and use their judgment on whether it needs to go or not. But yeah, that does put Shelynites in a potential bind.
Unless it's like a known memetic/cognitohazard/infohazard or something...
No, I think Silver Crusaders simply have to weigh whether their god's tenets are to be upheld, or whether that precious Fame is what's important. Every now and then you actually have to play your character, you know...
I dunno, whoever wins the fight in season 5, it's the common folk who will suffer.
You are very likely correct.
What makes me sad is that it doesn't have to be this way. It *is* possible to write characters that make people rally behind them rather than simply behave like lawless thugs.
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No, I think Silver Crusaders simply have to weigh whether their god's tenets are to be upheld, or whether that precious Fame is what's important. Every now and then you actually have to play your character, you know...
On the other hand, my Silver Crusader had serious problems with The Disappeared faction mission ** spoiler omitted **I figure Silver Crusaders should probably be expected to take a good long look at such art and use their judgment on whether it needs to go or not. But yeah, that does put Shelynites in a potential bind.
Unless it's like a known memetic/cognitohazard/infohazard or something...
:/
I'm not suggesting that Silver Crusaders simply go for the PP. I'm saying they should take a look at the situation and then see if their god's tenets demand something different from what's been handed down from their faction.
There could be examples of artwork that some good gods would want to see destroyed. With Shelynites, that's going to be incredibly rare(unless it's something truly dangerous, like a King In Yellow-style piece of art). With Sarenraens, it'll probably depend on exactly what's being portrayed. If it's some Asmodean power fantasy, they'll probably want to carry the mission out. If it's just something like visualized SarenraeXAbadar fanfic, the SC member may very well go "Oh come on, really?" and not bother with the mission.
Having not read The Disappeared, I don't know where that targetted art falls. I can see it going either way. Maybe it's just porn. Or maybe it is something genuinely dangerous, like the abovementioned infohazard.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Sorry. I should have done the wink or tongue-sticking-out thing. I wasn't trying to pick on you.
I *will* back up my comment by saying that I witness an awful lot of very poor role playing in the name of Fame. People will completely ditch any semblance of their characters' good name, background, or ideals all because they were told they had to do this thing.
With the painting example, can a Silver Crusader demand another mission? Of course not; the developers and writers can't anticipate all the problems that might arise from the things they write. Can the player simply not do this particular mission and write something into his character's story where he "has it out" with his faction leader? Sure. Why not? Well, because he won't get that all important point of Fame...
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...While my character is aligned with the Shadow Lodge simply because he was 'saved' by the lodge, he acts out of a sense of owing something to the Lodge and if a faction mission seems too 'wrong' he wont do it.
My characters all, regardless of their personalities, will do a faction mission even if it seems 'wrong', because hey, prestige comes with it!
There's one exception, and that's my Sczarni Paladin, but he's an exception with a rather enormous morality struggle he's gotten into.
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...While my character is aligned with the Shadow Lodge simply because he was 'saved' by the lodge, he acts out of a sense of owing something to the Lodge and if a faction mission seems too 'wrong' he wont do it.
My characters all, regardless of their personalities, will do a faction mission even if it seems 'wrong', because hey, prestige comes with it!
There's one exception, and that's my Sczarni Paladin, but he's an exception with a rather enormous morality struggle he's gotten into.
Awesome. I like the flavor of that, btu wouldn't he switch facions?
I have a friend that plays a barbarian that can not read and is in grand lodge because he was nto smart enough to pick another faction and will refuse to read his faction mission. If someone at the table does not have grand lodge with him his faction missions are incidental.
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Osirion: I'M EGYPTIAN! Yaaay!!! We get cool hats and ultra-special cats and live in pyramids and scoff at people who are scared of necromancy! Yaaay!!!
I usually play Cheliax, and it involves a lot of "bring me back X" or "Tell Y we're Z"
Shadow Lodge is quite the popular faction within my local PFS group, and people tend to reel, at least for a moment, when they're given a Cheliax mission for old scenarios - but you're quite right in my experience, and that's what I tell them. Chelaxian faction missions (at least the early ones) are very...open to interpretation. It's very easy to see a Cheliax agent and a Shadow Lodge agent going after the same things or people for totally different reasons.
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Can the player simply not do this particular mission and write something into his character's story where he "has it out" with his faction leader? Sure. Why not? Well, because he won't get that all important point of Fame...
.. Which is part of my issue with Torch recently. Not that I mind lying or even being asked to steal the occasional document or bauble. I'm just not good at it. Makes me wonder sometimes why he gives me those missions.
Being farmed out to Cheliax is pushing my boundaries of honor and morals, loose as they may be. I've argued the matter with Torch, who as expected gave me a line about "greater good" and "big picture".
Nevertheless, being unable and/or unwilling to follow the blacker-than-grey objectives when working in proxy for Cheliax, still won't advance Torch's or the Shadow Lodge's goals, and my price for it is less Fame and influence within my faction and within the Society.
So be it. I can still live with myself. And I honestly believe that the Shadow Lodge plays a critical role within the Society. The Grand Lodge may not be corrupt, but it is very corruptible, and it's us, Pathfinders who can prevent the Decemvirate from abusing the power we give them. Without us, their designs cannot see completion.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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Our Shadow Lodge gnome is convinced Torch and Zarta are having a steamy affair. In fact, in character in the disappeared when she saw the picture of Ambrose with the kiss on it, she was worried she'd have to break the news to Torch that they're having an affair... (Aside, my inner sadist enjoys watching her squirm when she's reading Cheliax faction missions)*
My own Shadow Lodge character, Rey, is really beginning to question his loyalty to the Shadow Lodge as it does seem a lot of the faction missions are "Do this task for Torch" in season 4. It seems that GMT is being more for himself than the society.
Talyn, otoh knows the Grand Lodge has corruption in it. He also believes the only way to change it is to get to the top. Thus excelling at faction missions benefits him.
Mayim doesn't care one way or the other. Working for Taldor allows her to stick it to the Keleshites.
"Enuck not know if shiny masks are corrupt. Enuck just know purple stork man happy when Enuck does good job. Enuck will smash for purple stork man and Red Prince man."
*
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I will say, after completing the retirement arc, I had know doubt that the Grand lodge is corrupt. My final Lantern Lodge(Qadiran)faction mission involved--
This would be yet another reason (beyond the general poor quality of writing in the later parts) that I really didn't have much use for the retirement arc. I cannot honestly recommend the arc to anyone. To play some module or adventure path part to get you over the 12th to 13th hump is a better path IMO.
I don't even vaguely understand why they had that small riff in the module story.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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I will say, after completing the retirement arc, I had know doubt that the Grand lodge is corrupt. My final Lantern Lodge(Qadiran)faction mission involved--
This would be yet another reason (beyond the general poor quality of writing in the later parts) that I really didn't have much use for the retirement arc. I cannot honestly recommend the arc to anyone. To play some module or adventure path part to get you over the 12th to 13th hump is a better path IMO.
I don't even vaguely understand why they had that small riff in the module story.
I think, like any scenario or module, the retirement arc shines under the right circumstances. When it was written (the first two in Season 1 and the second two in Season 2) it's story line was exactly appropriate to what was going on. Personally, it had the unfortunate side effect of removing from the Pathfinder Society world the one character that people seemed to enjoy interacting with, but at least it did that in spectacular fashion. Well, maybe not at the end. The story and how I felt about that character (and how I was able to get the table I ran to feel) was spectacularly visceral. As a threat, however, that character was barely a challenge in the end...
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While I admit I would be curious to read the module myself just so I know the inner workings of what occurred, from the outside playing I was completely underwhelmed as was everyone at our table. (BTW, this is not a table you ran).
I cannot imagine what possessed the writer and campaign staff to make the organization we all work for as a cornerstone of the campaign look so bad. Now I can accept we don't need to be working for Mary Poppins, but good lord, I'm not eager to work for Dr Mengele on the other extreme.
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Having not read The Disappeared, I don't know where that targetted art falls. I can see it going either way. Maybe it's just porn. Or maybe it is something genuinely dangerous, like the abovementioned infohazard.
The painting was harmless. If Ollysta had given me that mission, I would have endeavored to enhance the painting into a greater work of art by adding artistic flourishes which hopefully could mollify her ire at seeing her goddess depicted in such a fashion. Although the instruction was to destroy the painting, hopefully she would have seen fit to grant that I had achieved her objective.
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My characters all, regardless of their personalities, will do a faction mission even if it seems 'wrong', because hey, prestige comes with it!There's one exception, and that's my Sczarni Paladin, but he's an exception with a rather enormous morality struggle he's gotten into.
Awesome. I like the flavor of that, btu wouldn't he switch facions?
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No, he's there to ensure others in the faction remain on the path of good, while furthering the factions goals to rise to a level of fame where he can extend his mission even further.
Some "gentle persuasion" to stop a party member in his own faction from completing a detestable mission won't be out of the ordinary for this guy.
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Is the Grand Lodge corruptIs Zarta a whore?Hello! I like the pfs boards, so can we not use this word.
It is pretty disparaging to women in general, thank you!
Only if you believe it is. I notice you didn't complain about what Zauron13 said about Grandmaster Torch. All people are doing here is describing specific Pathfinder Society personalities...rather accurately.
Back on topic: Maybe it's just luck, but I've played most factions and have yet to run into a mission that made me think, "Hmm, my character wouldn't do this, would ith?" I hope iconoclasm isn't par for the Silver Crusade's course - my Silver Crusade character has only done one scenario so far (his faction mission there being "take a certain group of thugs off the streets of Riddleport", which we did quite literally by color spraying them and dumping them in the water after they tried to ambush us NOT MY CHARACTER'S IDEA), but he's intended to actually be a "good guy's good guy."
Again, however, I love Osirion. For a nation described as Lawful Neutral, by level 6 my character (a vaguely Dr. Who-ey Chaotic Good Elven Time Witch) sure has been sent on a lot of missions to steal things....
It's when I see the Silver Crusader get a kill order, while my Sczarni or Chelaxian gets asked to grab some loot, I kinda scratch my head a bit.
-j