Player Gimps Own Character


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1st level party, 3 decently optimized characters - archer, fighter, paladin, and one guy playing a cleric.

The cleric rolls stats and comes out ok. With race modifiers, he ends up with a 14 Int, 18 Wis, and 12 Con. Strength and dexterity are 10. Cha 7. He wants the high Int for RP. Buys light armor and no shield.

No strike bonus. AC 13.

So he gets hit constantly, never deals damage back, and watches as a CR 3 melee creature takes on him plus 2 of the warriors and beats the three of them senselessly. They barely got out. The cleric swings 4 time for a total of 3 damage.

He picked this, knowingly.

Scarab Sages

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Good for him.

He's putting character development ahead of combat optimization.

He's also most likely the only guy in the party that will have more than 3 skill points / level. (assuming another player is human)


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Not everyone is cut out to be adventurer. Some figure it out, some don't live long.


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So why exactly is the cleric not casting command spells again?

Scarab Sages

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I imagine that 18 Wis will make him quite the effective caster in a few levels.


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Artanthos wrote:

Good for him.

He's putting character development ahead of combat optimization.

For your character to develop he kinda has to live.


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He's effective right now. A DC 15 Will save is no joke for most monsters, not even an ogre.


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A lot of players do this for role playing purposes and there is nothing per se wrong with it. Assuming he actually knows the system and isn't just ignorant to how it works. I've done it on more then one occasion although I'm never quite that useless. Let him play what he wants and when he gets killed for being useless work with him to build a more useful one but in the end it is his choice.


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Clerics have spells. With a WIS of 18, he should have some very good spells. What spells did he cast? If he didn't cast anything, why not? With a STR of 7, it should have been obvious that he is focused more on casting than on melee so you probably shouldn't have expected him to fight. Was there any possibility of his character sticking to the sidelines, or did this melee beastie just appear out of nowhere in reach of the party's squishy caster?

Dark Archive

Cranefist wrote:

1st level party, 3 decently optimized characters - archer, fighter, paladin, and one guy playing a cleric.

The cleric rolls stats and comes out ok. With race modifiers, he ends up with a 14 Int, 18 Wis, and 12 Con. Strength and dexterity are 10. Cha 7. He wants the high Int for RP. Buys light armor and no shield.

No strike bonus. AC 13.

So he gets hit constantly, never deals damage back, and watches as a CR 3 melee creature takes on him plus 2 of the warriors and beats the three of them senselessly. They barely got out. The cleric swings 4 time for a total of 3 damage.

He picked this, knowingly.

There is nothing wrong with what he chose for a Cleric. However, he appears not to know what Clerics do. He should really never under any circumstance make an attack roll (let alone 4!). You should explain to the player what his ability scores mean, I think.


Lurk3r wrote:
Clerics have spells. With a WIS of 18, he should have some very good spells. What spells did he cast? If he didn't cast anything, why not? With a STR of 7, it should have been obvious that he is focused more on casting than on melee so you probably shouldn't have expected him to fight. Was there any possibility of his character sticking to the sidelines, or did this melee beastie just appear out of nowhere in reach of the party's squishy caster?

He's clever. He shined in a few spots. He broke combat with a pirate ship by using animate rope to tie up the wheel while they were trying to grapple the ship the PCs were on (don't care if that's how Animate Rope works). He channeled a ton of skeletons later on. I think he summoned a monster at one point.

The monster was an undead creature. They walked up to the dark tower, saw it, detected evil on it, waited for it to slowly walk up, and started talking to it. They had all day to get ready. Then it stomped the tar out of two of them and dropped one before they put it down. They only managed that because it tried to run when low on HP, evaded two AoOs and was finally hit by a crossbow.

Liberty's Edge

Yeah, I would say he sort of missed it, a little.

CHA 7 is bad for a Cleric (Channels are based on CHA, right?

STR 10 and DEX 10, not as bad... When you say "roll" Cranefist, does that mean you were actually rolling, and not using the point buy system?

Also, is this character still at 1st level? What are his domains? I'd say there is a lot more to describing a cleric than just stats...

This is a Good Thing, BTW. Clerics are much more "fluffy" than ever before in PF.

But, I would say that the 10 STR is not a Bad Thing. He needs better armor, for sure (if this is his initial foray into the world of adventuring, why isn't he in Scale Mail?) Remember, if you are in medium armor, you are already effectively in medium encumbrance.

Also, as GM, do you realize that a CR3 creature is going to be amazingly tough for these characters? What sort of creature was it?

The CR system basically says that if you have 4 characters of level 1, a single CR1 creature should be a good match. A CR3 creature would be a battle of epic proportions, and would likely be taking out a character per round.

Dark Archive

I don't believe Clerics get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a Class Feature anymore.


Jack R Brown wrote:

Yeah, I would say he sort of missed it, a little.

CHA 7 is bad for a Cleric (Channels are based on CHA, right?

STR 10 and DEX 10, not as bad... When you say "roll" Cranefist, does that mean you were actually rolling, and not using the point buy system?

Also, is this character still at 1st level? What are his domains? I'd say there is a lot more to describing a cleric than just stats...

This is a Good Thing, BTW. Clerics are much more "fluffy" than ever before in PF.

But, I would say that the 10 STR is not a Bad Thing. He needs better armor, for sure (if this is his initial foray into the world of adventuring, why isn't he in Scale Mail?) Remember, if you are in medium armor, you are already effectively in medium encumbrance.

Also, as GM, do you realize that a CR3 creature is going to be amazingly tough for these characters? What sort of creature was it?

The CR system basically says that if you have 4 characters of level 1, a single CR1 creature should be a good match. A CR3 creature would be a battle of epic proportions, and would likely be taking out a character per round.

I honestly don't remember his domains. Yes, we rolled for stats, 4d6 drop the lowest. I was initially concerned because the cleric had the worst spread at +5 or +6, but he still had a 16, which raised to an 18. I just assumed he would have a moderate or low INT, not a 14. The next worst character had a +9 spread. The other two are +10 I think.

No, I don't agree that a CR 3 is that bad. It only had 17 HP. Between a Paladin with Smite Evil and a Fighter with a two handed weapon, I'm shocked it didn't go down on the second round. It would have if the cleric had done anything to help.

Edit - Sorry, it was a CR 2. It was this thing: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/undead/ghoul/ghoul-ghast


Lurk3r wrote:
Clerics have spells. With a WIS of 18, he should have some very good spells. What spells did he cast? If he didn't cast anything, why not? With a STR of 7, it should have been obvious that he is focused more on casting than on melee so you probably shouldn't have expected him to fight. Was there any possibility of his character sticking to the sidelines, or did this melee beastie just appear out of nowhere in reach of the party's squishy caster?

Right. Clerics are spellcasters, not tanks. Yes, they can tank, esp with self-buffing. But they are full spellcasters. The only part I question is the low CHA, which is gonna hurt him come Channel time (I’d have a 14 CHA, and a 10 int instead).

You do understand that YOU gimped him, right? Those rolls come out to be a 13pt buy, assuming he’s human. With a 20pt buy he could be a well balanced 12,12,12,12,18,12. +1 to hit & dmg, more channels, +1 to AC, etc.

What are his domains?


The only thing I see wrong with his build is his CHA score if he intends to channel at all. Otherwise let the guy play the way he wants to play, but a cleric should remain in the back and not get into the thick of things when you have a fighter and a paladin in the group to take up the hits. He should be buffing/debuffing and healing at this point.


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Let him re spec as an oracle with the lore (sidestep secret) mystery. Switch the wis and cha, and roll from there. There won't be much of a difference in play style, but he will have a much better skills and AC/ ref. he will still be a "contemplative" caster who focuses on skills rather than combat, he will just do it all better.


DrDeth wrote:
Lurk3r wrote:
Clerics have spells. With a WIS of 18, he should have some very good spells. What spells did he cast? If he didn't cast anything, why not? With a STR of 7, it should have been obvious that he is focused more on casting than on melee so you probably shouldn't have expected him to fight. Was there any possibility of his character sticking to the sidelines, or did this melee beastie just appear out of nowhere in reach of the party's squishy caster?

Right. Clerics are spellcasters, not tanks. Yes, they can tank, esp with self-buffing. But they are full spellcasters. The only part I question is the low CHA, which is gonna hurt him come Channel time (I’d have a 14 CHA, and a 10 int instead).

You do understand that YOU gimped him, right? Those rolls come out to be a 13pt buy, assuming he’s human. With a 20pt buy he could be a well balanced 12,12,12,12,18,12. +1 to hit & dmg, more channels, +1 to AC, etc.

What are his domains?

I don't ever play 20 point buy. 13 points is just fine. And two of the characters he is traveling with are fighters - the lowest of the low on class tiers, so I don't feel bad for the guy with the strongest class having lower stats. The fact that he crammed his stats into INT for no good reason is his fault.

Dark Archive

Ninten wrote:
I don't believe Clerics get Heavy Armor Proficiency as a Class Feature anymore.

they don't... but chain and hide are both medium armor. No way that a starting level 1 character is going to be able to afford heavy.


Byrdology wrote:
Let him re spec as an oracle with the lore (sidestep secret) mystery. Switch the wis and cha, and roll from there. There won't be much of a difference in play style, but he will have a much better skills and AC/ ref. he will still be a "contemplative" caster who focuses on skills rather than combat, he will just do it all better.

That's a good idea. Thanks

Dark Archive

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Here is the problem I have with rolled stats...

balance.

If you get one player rolling 17,17,17,15,14,12 and another rolling 16,14, 12, 10, 10, 7 you have a major mismatch. Yes, it can happen (I've done it).

The whole point of the point buys is that players start out at the same level. Characteristics are very important for starting characters, somewhat less so as characters progress (within reason).

That's why I like point buys. You could go with a 15 point buy instead of 20, if you'd like (in fact, I believe that APs are designed for 15 point buys). But, keep it even... keep everyone on a level playing field.

As for the ghasts, they are definitely tough critters for a level 1 character. Especially for a cleric with a gimped CHA... because the best way to deal with 'em is a channel for damage (as a cleric).

They have a high AC (A fighter with 16 STR and weapon focus will hit only on a 13, missing 60% of the time). The paralyze is also tough at this level. I will say there is a big difference between CR2s and CR3s, but just remember that this was supposed to be a tough fight. So, the d6, it was a 1 in 216 chance, 1 in 512 for a d8). Even worse, the stench should sicken 2 of the 4, by odds, making them even worse in combat. That doesn't mean they can't succeed, just makes it a LOT harder!


That is the sort of character I would create :) Although I would probably have bought a shield. After playing for 30 years, I find maxed out combat characters boring, and if I want a tactical skirmish war game, I will go play warhammer and leave most of my armies at home.

I'll go for the RP every time and trust my GM to throw characters at the party we can deal with.


Furthermore, give him a hvy spiked shield as his primary weapon, and introduce him to the feats: crane style and crane wing.


I dont think that CHA is neccessary for clerics as channels only matter at low levels.

I think you should have let him buy points - it succs to roll bad while anyone else has pretty good stats (even though "+10" or "+6" does not say anything - give us their virtual point buy).

To me it sounds like the player is doing not too bad. Honestly he just seems to be kind of annoyed because from what you said I'm pretty sure he is aware of how much he sucks at melee.

But as smart player he will get strong eough anyway - even with not-so-good-stats. Clerics are likely to outshine non-T1-classes, so dont worry too much. As long as wisdom is decent he will do fine.


So, in one encounter he performed less than optimally. Even if it was by choice out of ignorance or understanding and desire, it was just the once, right? Until the situation reoccurs I would give him the benefit of doubt and assume he recognized the situation after the fact at least, then allow him the opportunity to make up for it in future encounters before asking for a verdict.

Scarab Sages

A Ghast is still going to be a tough fight for a party of level 1 characters. It has an 18 AC, three attacks per round, paralysis, and stench. The fact that they didn't get TPKed is a testament to the party being well designed as a whole.

As for the cleric, Instead of trying to ineffectually fight in melee he should be casting spells and using ranged attacks as a last resort, at least until he gets a decent AC.

Santuary on himself and then Cure Light wounds as needed on the rest of the party should have been very effective, or Hide From Undead on the paladin to get a surprise round to Smite.


Byrdology wrote:
Furthermore, give him a hvy spiked shield as his primary weapon, and introduce him to the feats: crane style and crane wing.

Now that would gimp him. Clerics don't have the feats to spare in my opinion, he'd *still* do no damage with his low strength, *and* it would be detrimental to his spellcasting. Terrible idea.


Additionally, if he's emphasizing RP over character optimization, you can reward particularly poignant RP actions or heroic actions with Hero Points and that can balance out some deficiencies of lowish stats and such. Bonus traits or feats can also help balance out when rolled stats give you the equivalent of a low point-buy. I also contemplated the idea of letting people use points to "buy" templates. Not sure how to manage the costs, though.


You have a fighter and a paladin in the same party, and they could not shield the cleric from one CR2 critter? If anything, I would be critical of their teamwork.


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Cranefist wrote:


I don't ever play 20 point buy. 13 points is just fine. And two of the characters he is traveling with are fighters - the lowest of the low on class tiers, so I don't feel bad for the guy with the strongest class having lower stats. The fact that he crammed his stats into INT for no good reason is his fault.

facepalm


Playing in your game with your players sounds fun.


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Ice Titan wrote:
Cranefist wrote:


I don't ever play 20 point buy. 13 points is just fine. And two of the characters he is traveling with are fighters - the lowest of the low on class tiers, so I don't feel bad for the guy with the strongest class having lower stats. The fact that he crammed his stats into INT for no good reason is his fault.
facepalm

Agreed. That cleric deserves a better GM than you are offering.


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

If he is going to give up medium armor and a shield, maybe he should go for the cloistered cleric archetype -- then he would get something in exchange for not wearing the best armor he can.

Also, he should definitely hang back from the front lines and cast spells from the back -- he is almost as squishy as a wizard or sorcerer.


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Makarion wrote:
Ice Titan wrote:
Cranefist wrote:


I don't ever play 20 point buy. 13 points is just fine. And two of the characters he is traveling with are fighters - the lowest of the low on class tiers, so I don't feel bad for the guy with the strongest class having lower stats. The fact that he crammed his stats into INT for no good reason is his fault.
facepalm
Agreed. That cleric deserves a better GM than you are offering.

Thirded. Friends don't let friends roll for stats.


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Cranefist wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

You do understand that YOU gimped him, right? Those rolls come out to be a 13pt buy, assuming he’s human. With a 20pt buy he could be a well balanced 12,12,12,12,18,12. +1 to hit & dmg, more channels, +1 to AC, etc.

What are his domains?

I don't ever play 20 point buy. 13 points is just fine. And two of the characters he is traveling with are fighters - the lowest of the low on class tiers, so I don't feel bad for the guy with the strongest class having lower stats. The fact that he crammed his stats into INT for no good reason is his fault.

Roleplaying is “no good reason”?!? There must be some reason why we call PF a Fantasy Roleplaying game as opposed to a Fantasy Combat game.


evangelist would be neat as well....


Luckily he was a cleric with those D8 hp, because if he's getting hit constantly the Tanks aren't doing their job, and if he was a Robe-wearing caster he'd be dead by now.

Are you asking the Fighters why they aren't doing their job?


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Weables wrote:
Makarion wrote:
Ice Titan wrote:
Cranefist wrote:


I don't ever play 20 point buy. 13 points is just fine. And two of the characters he is traveling with are fighters - the lowest of the low on class tiers, so I don't feel bad for the guy with the strongest class having lower stats. The fact that he crammed his stats into INT for no good reason is his fault.
facepalm
Agreed. That cleric deserves a better GM than you are offering.
Thirded. Friends don't let friends roll for stats.

Hey! I roll for stats.

Though I allow re-rolls for extremely s@&@ty stats and generally bump people up to around the level of the highest character if someone ends up with uber-stats.

I much prefer everyone having great stats and then bumping the encounters a bit to compensate over everyone having mediocre stats and one guy having really good ones or an extreme mix of good and bad. And I don't like dealing with Point Buy, mostly because I find it easier just to pretend nobody's fudging rolls than auditing Point Buy.


Seems like a decent character to me; definitely not a combat expert, but should be good with spell, and can help out a bit in the skills department with that Int score. Depending on the domains and diety picked, could be really fun to rp as well. It sounds like the issue may be more that the character doesn't fit with the campaign than that it's a bad character in general.


Makarion wrote:
Byrdology wrote:
Furthermore, give him a hvy spiked shield as his primary weapon, and introduce him to the feats: crane style and crane wing.
Now that would gimp him. Clerics don't have the feats to spare in my opinion, he'd *still* do no damage with his low strength, *and* it would be detrimental to his spellcasting. Terrible idea.

3 feats (dodge, crane style and wing) gives you +5 AC ( +1 dodge, +2 shield, +2 from crane style) and the ability to completely negate 1 attack/ round is gimped? I think it's quite optimal for this character. Lets say you need to do a touch buff in combat that provokes an AoO... Just crane wing it away and there is never a need to cast defensively or make any concentration check in combat.

You will have a highly defended caster who shuns melee and focuses on spells and skills. With his spiked shield he will still threaten even though he will probly never use it. What's not to love?

Put your lvl 4 stat bump into int, and take that other secret that bumps your int by another + 1 and BAM! More skills.


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*clicks on one thread*

"Fighters need to stop whining about lack of skill points! There's nothing stopping them from putting a 16 in Int! If they don't do that and still want more skill points, they must be powergaming munchkins who want to be the best at everything forever and they probably want to be able to cast spells like a wizard for free too!"

*clicks on next thread*

"A party member put a good score in Int despite not being an int-based class! Now my entire party is going to die! What can I do to deal with my player being a complete moron and not dumping Int like they're supposed to?"

I love you Paizo forums, never change.


Byrdology wrote:
Makarion wrote:
Byrdology wrote:
Furthermore, give him a hvy spiked shield as his primary weapon, and introduce him to the feats: crane style and crane wing.
Now that would gimp him. Clerics don't have the feats to spare in my opinion, he'd *still* do no damage with his low strength, *and* it would be detrimental to his spellcasting. Terrible idea.

3 feats (dodge, crane style and wing) gives you +5 AC ( +1 dodge, +2 shield, +2 from crane style) and the ability to completely negate 1 attack/ round is gimped? I think it's quite optimal for this character. Lets say you need to do a touch buff in combat that provokes an AoO... Just crane wing it away and there is never a need to cast defensively or make any concentration check in combat.

You will have a highly defended caster who shuns melee and focuses on spells and skills. With his spiked shield he will still threaten even though he will probly never use it. What's not to love?

Put your lvl 4 stat bump into int, and take that other secret that bumps your int by another + 1 and BAM! More skills.

I think it fits his character great. This is the best idea so far. He desperately wants to be up front hitting things in melee - he just wants to be ineffective - but he doesn't like getting hit or taking damage. Good call.


Of course it would require shuffling the Ability Scores around (10 Int, 14 dex) and he won't even get Crane Wing for two more levels (assuming he's Human) unless the DM lets him trade out his Medium Armor Proficiency (which it seems he's not using) for it.

EDIT: scratch that, the feat chain in question ALSO requires Improved Unarmed Strike. So... without flaws that Cleric couldn't get it until 5th level >.<

Silver Crusade

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If the campaign fails, you have a fall guy to blame it on. Screw role-play, everyone knows clerics have to have certain stats or fail. Pathfinder should insist on preset ability scores for classes so players don't make this error as well as mandatory equipment.


Cranefist wrote:


I think it fits his character great. This is the best idea so far. He desperately wants to be up front hitting things in melee - he just wants to be ineffective - but he doesn't like getting hit or taking damage. Good call.

*blink* *blink* Seriously? He told you this? Or are inferring it from his build and play so far?


Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Wasum wrote:
evangelist would be neat as well....

If he hadn't dumped charisma I would agree with you.


Bill Dunn wrote:
Cranefist wrote:


I think it fits his character great. This is the best idea so far. He desperately wants to be up front hitting things in melee - he just wants to be ineffective - but he doesn't like getting hit or taking damage. Good call.
*blink* *blink* Seriously? He told you this? Or are inferring it from his build and play so far?

I questioned him twice on stats and once on gear, and offered to let him trade his armor proficiency when I thought he was putting the 7 in Str. He wasn't unguided. He picked this.


Glad to help! Human oracle

1) dodge, imp unarmed strike. Mystery = lore (sidestep secret revelation)
2)
3) crane style. Revelation = lore keeper (+1 int)
4) +1 int
5) whatever you like
6)
7) crane wing.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

I kinda want to know the player POV here.

What is said here:

Quote:

- archer, fighter, paladin, and one guy playing a cleric.

The cleric rolls stats and comes out ok. With race modifiers, he ends up with a 14 Int, 18 Wis, and 12 Con. Strength and dexterity are 10. Cha 7. He wants the high Int for RP. Buys light armor and no shield.

No strike bonus. AC 13.

Doesn't concern me much. If I wanted to play a cleric, and the other three players in the group are heavily combat oriented, as the archer, fighter, and paladin are, I would probably make a non-combat oriented cleric too (or an oracle, or other kind of non fighty type of character). He should have spells, skills, and tactics that make up for his inability to fight. Not everyone has to be specced to be awesome in weapon combat.

But...

Quote:
He desperately wants to be up front hitting things in melee - he just wants to be ineffective - but he doesn't like getting hit or taking damage.

This confuses me. And I like Bill Dunn am wondering did he say this or is this an inference?

It's one thing to design a non-combat-focused character. It's fine to design a well-rounded character. And I am all about designing around character concept and roleplaying, not necessarily worrying about 100% optimization.

But it's another to say, "I want to play a melee character" and then purposely design a character that's bad at it.

Especially as a cleric. 'Cause here's the thing--clerics are usually relied upon to help the party survive. If the cleric is not playing to his strengths (and the posted build has strengths, melee just isn't one of them), and he gets himself killed, he potentially screws the entire party over.

If this is truly the issue, a talk about teamwork and RPGs being cooperative games are in order. It's well and dandy to play the character you desire, but if the character you desire ends up actively screwing over the rest of the party, that's a problem. It's as effective as the thief who constantly steals the party's stuff... maybe not as mean, but as effective.


There is nothing that says gimped to me about this cleric. The player is just insane.

This cleric would be prefectly awesome as a buffing/debuffing and offensive spell caster.

The player playing him as a front line combatant who chose not to give him front combantant is to blame.

Those scores are perfectly fine to bullt a front line cleric, he however choose to build a smart spellcaster cleric, which i had done in the past, and been very effective.

The flaw here is the player, this is usually a rare thing, but in this case, the player is clearly out of his mind.

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