INCOMING: HUGE WALL OF TEXT
I'm running a PF campaign in a world I've created over the years, gallons of backstory and a pantheon which I've slightly altered to equate to the Golarion gods etc. etc. Let's get down to business.
Issue 1: My witch. She's new to tabletopping, and wanted to play a fey associated with storms. So, I used the race building point system, made her a slightly advanced race within limits, rather balanced all things considered, and she liked it. She decided to play a witch (enchantment patron) who used to be exceptionally powerful, but due to campaign/plot events, she lost her power in the past and now wants it back.
Here's her issue: She wants to be the beautiful unique little snowflake who wants to do EVERYTHING but isn't actually... good at anything. Her spell choice is lackluster despite my advice, she has used her Hexes... three times? In fact, the only spells I remember her using are Unnatural Lust on [obscenity!] EVERYTHING! Including but not limited to a diabolist cultist to make him get jiggy with his summoned lemure, a (completely evil and manipulative) succubus who is hanging around one of our players for her own nefarious reason (she tried to make this succubus french kiss a froghemoth), and a LN old green dragon our SUPER INTELLIGENT (and only competent) player befriended. These have met with, well, some success. Some. As in once.
I can't seem to get it into her head that she either needs to play her backstory and Lightning Bolt errythang, and build up the DCs for her spells, or just go all enchantments like her Patron seems to present. She also not only wants A: a kelpie as a mount (she is determined to find a non-predatory kelpie -_-) B: an army of woodland creatures/fey/plant type creatures to assist her in the coming war the party is working at, and C: massive amounts of magical and social power.
Now, all these things are technically well within the witch classes ability. Dominate the hell out of a kelpie, or beat it until it stockholmes. Maybe possible. Maybe.
She can also befriend/enchant/dominate a lot of things in the surrounding (hundreds of acres of) woods. Thirdly, she has a lot of powerful debilitating and damaging spells to choose from. Ray of Exhaustion, Ice Storm, etc. Lot's of enemy and field control. But for some reason, she'd rather shoot a single bolt from her crossbow at a +7 or something attack mod.
She's not having fun as her character. She wants to be more powerful, and even though I'm trying to help her with spell choice, trying to remind her to use her Hexes (I think I may just play as our rangers horse and speak into her ear), I can't seem to get through to her. How do you suggest I help her enjoy her character while also keeping her grounded in reality?
Secondly, I have this one aforementioned super genius party member with a massive ton of INT. She's playing a modified wu-jen, and deals boatloads of fire damage. Very impressive. She's also got the knowledge down, and is the only one making any headway on the campaigns main plot, which happens to be a mystery centered around a town's opposing daemonic and necromantic cults. As in, while our witch and barb go gallivanting through the trees looking for faeries, despite them knowing full well innocent children are presently DYING in ways themed after the Four Horsemen, the wu-jen is investigating, going on quests on her own, and literally being the party while the others derp about.
I need advice on how I can, while keeping the feel of a free, open world, get these guys off the track of thinking that the wu-jen is the 'main character' (which is totally not true, she's just apparently the only intelligent player AND character), and get them back to the very real fact that if they don't stop this cult, the Horsemen will be summoned and the world will end.
Note: They all KNOW how serious things are, they just don't seem to care. Also, the city this is happening in is now in a civil war between the nobles, who are behind it all, and the local cathedral. On top of this all, a cult dedicated to Doresain is waiting to fill the power vacuum. AND NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING.
Halp.
I agree that remaking the witch into a sorcerer is a good idea. If they player isn't good at making choices, narrow her choices.
It sounds like some of your players aren't ready for your, "world I've created over the years, gallons of backstory and a pantheon which I've slightly altered to equate to the Golarion gods etc." I suggest giving them something simpler for a while. They may be ready for more later, after they've gotten used to the game and had a chance to play around a bit.
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You could always ask the players what they want out of the game, then try to give it to them. If necessary, let someone else (some band of NPC heroes, say) save the world while the PCs focus on whatever it is that captures the attention of the players.
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I recommend dropping the plot onto the derpers. While in the Forrest away from the wu-jen have one of the cults with an important piece of... something cross their path and get aggressive with a little interchange about how they "better not be agents for so-and-so" or that they "need to get this piece back to BBEG in Location X". Or when they finally find a tribe of fey they agree to help only on the condition that the derpers perform a mission that is in line with your main story.
It sounds like you've designed a sandbox, and you have a few players who need some clear cut mission based objectives. I could be wrong on this as I don't have any info outside what you typed. Drop the main plot on their heads, give them missions, and change the witch to a sorcerer. If your witch really wants those few things you've listed use them as the carrot on the end of a stick to motivate her. Perhaps she'll eventually not need that method if she starts to care about the story, but if it works use it.
I have a GM who thinks he's doing an awesome job of giving our group plot hooks for his homebrew world that he wrote from scratch. To him his whole story and layout is super obvious. After about 6 months in this world I finally sat down and told him that I have no idea what the main story is and that it seems like all his plot hooks lead to dead ends that we end up abandoning. He was astonished to find this out, and thought we were intentionally ignoring things. Since then I've taken the initiative in the party to seek out people to give our group missions to get us going on the right track and things are moving smooth for the first time. The reason I tell this story is that your players may be oblivious to what you feel you're plainly laying in front of them. (again I don't know for sure since I only know what you've written)
Best of luck!
I have SUPER simplified the homebrew world, because this campaign was intended to take place in one rather small area, which it has. However, it's more or less the fact that this party is so disjointed.
Aside from our CN Barb, WuJen, and Witch, we have a NG Oracle of Life, a CG TWF Ranger with a horse, and a LN Elf Rogue. The Ranger is super new as well, and is getting the hang of it better than our witch. (The witch actually died this last session... this person actually left the safety of a castle wall to go and cast lipstitch on the GRAVEKNIGHT that was taunting the party, and I felt so bad for her stupidity I resurrected her)
The Oracle is fantastic, as is our Rogue. I think that the problem is that despite the constant urgings of the NPCs, the OOC hinting from me and our above-troll-INT-rating players... they just don't feel the urgency. Because they want to do what they want to do. Which is fine, if the world weren't ending.
About respeccing... I actually have, as a plot item, this 'well' connected to the negative energy plane. If a living being is thrust into it, they die, and spawn out of this OTHER well which is connected to the positive energy plane as a new being. It's guarded by undead and such, but it's a plot location the undead cult want to use because it essentially functions as a super-desecration for creating undead.
I think I may use that as a 'oh hey look you're reborn' for her. I just... she's pagan IRL and wants the aesthetics of being a 'witch' and I don't want to take that from her, but... she's just not getting the whole idea of 'Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle, repeat'.
Edit: I DO like the idea of the party getting caught up in the whole cultic struggle and being confused for members of one or the other... it's just hard to have the Order of the Four confuse a fey witch and a Strix barbarian for necromancers, or for the mainly intelligent undead Disciples of the Pallid to see these two ragamuffins as highly refined and LE members of this cult.
On that note, I just checked over their sheets and found out they didn't bring any food or rations with them on this spontaneous wilderness outing. And they are now three days outside of town with no ranks in survival or even heal.
From one DM to another, is this time to Wendigo-go?
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My advice? Let them starve and die, then force them to reroll. Give the witch homework and make her study all the spellcasting classes. It sounds to me like what she wants out of the witch is actually the iconic wizard or maybe druid. I have a few pegan friends and from what I understand, those two classes fit well into that worship system. As for the barbarian, it sounds to me like he is intentionally playing the "hulk smash" retard his class was meant to be. Let him. Just make sure someone in the party has a fishing rod and a steak to keep him following the smart ones.
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Your job as a DM is to make sure that the players are having fun. Everything else comes secondary to this. You're the host of the party.
STOP TRYING TO FIX EVERYBODY AND START FACILITATING THEIR CHOICES.
So, for god's sake, don't backseat drive their characters. There's few things worse than being told you suck in a fantasy of empowerment. STOP trying to tell the witch how to play her character. If you've got suboptimal choices from some of the players, lower the CR of some encounters instead. Let the players make suggestions to each other. (Have the oracle maybe talk to the witch about simple suggestions.)
What your players are telling you is that they don't find your plot interesting. It doesn't seem to have grown organically out of their choices, but is rather a railroad. The players are the stars. Let them find fae that help them with the plot or advance their personal interests or both. The witch is role-playing fine, she's trying to interact with the world and at least in part prepare for the plot with that army idea.
They -do- enjoy the plot and constantly praise it. The issue is that they dont seem to know how to not die. I'm not going to facilitate game-breaking or silly things that literally don't make sense. The plot is not a go here then here linear path.
If I lower the CR, the wujen kills everything. If I use only things with fire immunity, i still don't have a lot of options. The wujen is too strong to have aower CR. And completely 100% her hoices are ruining it or herself.
I think she should play a summoner with her CG kelpie as an eidolon. :/
Sounds to me like you have a world and plot that is too complex for some of your players and that doesn't particularly fit your character mix.
You have a CN barbarian going off and being CN. That shouldn't be a problem - you should be giving him bonus XP for that.
You have an inexperienced player playing a fairly complex character set up - and you seem surprised that she doesn't know how to max out the character abilities and use them to the full. It sounds like she doesn't have a good understanding of the mechanics of the rules either.
Of all of your player/s only one (The Wu jen) appears to be on the same wave length as you (Your words - she's just apparently the only intelligent player AND character)
It feels to me as if you are thinking of you and your world and your grand plans. Perhaps you need to think more about your players and what they want. From what you say, it sounds like they are trying to make the best of it while you and the Wu Jen get it on.
The wujen is new, too. In fact, so is the ranger. The world has little to no importance, you're all focusing on that bit too much. Lol. The thing is, everyone loves the campaign. I'm just worried the witch isn't really... Feeling powerful enough. Abd aside from changing her spell list completely, I can't give her too much opportunity to shine. I guess that's my main issue. How can I help a very suboptimal player feel powerful in the face of everyone else?
It seems she is not recognizing the mechanical limitations of the game, when coming up with her ideas. You may have to sit down and explain why the game will make it very difficult/impossible to do ______.
@ DMing style: I've heard people talk about an "episode" format, where some tv-episodes focus on one character to the detriment of the others, at least for a short while. Let the Witch and Barb who are gallivanting through the trees have a central experience ( a one-shot), where the WuJen plays a supporting role. This might bring them back into the central game somewhat.
And another question would be what your players want: Character experiences, or combat? When the Barbarian and Witch are looking for fae, are they looking for friends? Characters they may want to rescue, and then befriend? Maybe what you need to do as a GM is spend some time talking in a funny voice. That can really help players bond with one another, and build a direct emotional connection with conflicts within the story.
@ Powerful Witch: If she has an inflated sense of power, giving her a scary/humiliating experience might wake her up to the dangers of the world. This could actually be very engaging for her.
But if not, if she's actually supposed to be uber powerful, then RogueRouge's (first part) is right. Like REALLY right. If she wants to do things that are within her power range, but she's "doing it wrong," then simply change things so she's doing it right.
@ Powerful Witch: If she wants to do things that are within her power range, but she's "doing it wrong," then simply change things so she's doing it right.
That's what he's asking for help with. She chose a caster class with special powers (hexes) that she isn't using at all. Why play a spell caster if all you want to do is shoot things with your crossbow and make them have sex with odd creatures? Play a ranged rogue and take the minor/major magic tricks, it would make much more sense at that point.
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The Oracle is fantastic, as is our Rogue. I think that the problem is that despite the constant urgings of the NPCs, the OOC hinting from me and our above-troll-INT-rating players... they just don't feel the urgency. Because they want to do what they want to do. Which is fine, if the world weren't ending.
Then delay the end of the world a bit. If they like your plot but also want to do some of their own stuff, give them a mission that will delay the cults' plans and give them a bit more time to prepare for the apocalypse, which gives them room for what they want to do and also lets them engange with the main plot.
Recently played in a sandbox campaign where the main plot thread was stopping a cult of liches from bringing about the end of the word. However, because of the time frame attached to the apocalypse (the liches were waiting for a solar eclipse) we were able to do a lot of exploration and pursue a number of personal goals while still saving the world. In some cases the personal goals were even attached to the main plot. For example, one character was seeking vengeance against an NPC who happened to ally with the lich cult.
I think I may use that as a 'oh hey look you're reborn' for her. I just... she's pagan IRL and wants the aesthetics of being a 'witch' and I don't want to take that from her, but... she's just not getting the whole idea of 'Evil Eye, Misfortune, Cackle, repeat'.
Then explain to her that there are ways to play a witch without playing the witch class - the class mechanics are not the only way for her character to have that flavour and that personal identity. The druid is actually a better fit for the ideals of wicca and similar modern earth-based paganism (you didn't specify what kind of pagan she is IRL). But a fey or sylvan bloodline sorcerer would also work as a "witch" and might give her more comfortable mechanics with a fey slant and a selection of both storm magic and enchantment. If she wants a kelpie and you're comfortable with a non-predatory kelpie the simplest way to do it is let her take the leadership feat - you could also give her a different sort of fey mount if she isn't too attached to the idea of a kelpie in particular.
If she's not liking her current options - the crossbow and unnatural lust isn't working and the powerful options aren't her style - then figure out what she actually wants to do and then figure out how to apply her concept and style to the mechanics that let her do what she wants to do.
i'm going to say the problem is how you built her a witch. you built a witch that would be poweful but not one she wants to play, and not the way it sounds like she envisions a witch
instead build the witch that fits her preffered methods of attck or play style
instead of cackle, misfortune and evil
give her charm, disuise, feral speech, heal, she obviously wants to be the high charisma charmer white witch. the witch can be that, it would not be optimal, but it can be functional. don't bend the player to the class, bend the class to player.
she seems to have gotten the idea of using spells to bend things to her will, then build a witch that does that. instead of trying to lighting bolt everything, which is clearly does not want to do, teach, her how to charm, enchant and dominate the minds of these lesser beings.
i'm going to say the problem is how you built her a witch. you built a witch that would be poweful but not one she wants to play, and not the way it sounds like she envisions a witch
instead build the witch that fits her preffered methods of attck or play style
instead of cackle, misfortune and evil
give her charm, disuise, feral speech, heal, she obviously wants to be the high charisma charmer white witch. the witch can be that, it would not be optimal, but it can be functional. don't bend the player to the class, bend the class to player.
she seems to have gotten the idea of using spells to bend things to her will, then build a witch that does that. instead of trying to lighting bolt everything, which is clearly does not want to do, teach, her how to charm, enchant and dominate the minds of these lesser beings.
you could also make her a white haired witch.
witch is how she is identifying with the game because she is pagan.
There are also pagan gods, there for oracle, druid, and cleric could be considered to do what she wants as well.
When my wife makes a witch, she frequently chooses, tongues as a hex.
Right now at level two her hexes are frost foot and tongues, she has tons of fun.
Its likely she will choose feral speech and disguise as hexes as well.
Charm and slumber are ones she might use too..
I definitely think one of the issues is that you made her a witch YOU would play.
Essentially, she wants to be both a godly powerful lightning bolter but also a subtle and manipulative charmer, and at the same time being a fey-friending nature wanderer, and also a sex-crazed nymph...
I know there are a lot of ways to help with one or the other, but she wants it ALL and seems miffed that it takes time and in some cases she may have to make cuts.
I didn't build her witch; she asked me for help on certain things, which hexes to take for what (she has disguise and slumber but has never used either).
I think I'm just going to sit down with her and really try to re-grasp what it is she wants.
I'm also slowing down the time frame, because I agree; I don't want the campaign to suddenly 'end'.
Thanks for all the advice, ladies and gents.
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Essentially, she wants to be both a godly powerful lightning bolter but also a subtle and manipulative charmer, and at the same time being a fey-friending nature wanderer, and also a sex-crazed nymph...
I know there are a lot of ways to help with one or the other, but she wants it ALL and seems miffed that it takes time and in some cases she may have to make cuts.
And that's why I think the fey bloodline sorceress is actually the best class for her. You get plenty of lightning on your spell list (lightning bolt, call lightning, stormbolts) as well as a good array of enchantment, and the fact that you're cha-based instead of int-based means that mundane charming, manipulation, and seduction is that much easier. The fey bloodline gives you a reason to be friends with fey (which would be developed through gameplay), a bonus to Knowledge (nature) and Woodland Stride for the "nature wanderer", and a bonus to compulsion to further help with the magical manipulation.
Unnatural Lust is on the sorc/wiz spell list and the rest of the "sex-crazed nymph" thing is just RP that can be done with any class (but especially a cha-based one).
All of your troubles aside, Virellius, you tell a very good story. :)
As someone else pointed-out, you may be running a plot too complex for your new players. Making an "I'm a special snowflake" character is a sign of an inexperienced player.
Here's a wild idea: (After you have that sit-down talk with the witch-player), have the dragon inform the witch that she (the witch) is suffering from amnesia, and that her powers were dispelled from her in the form of small familiars. These familiars obeyed her command and scattered across the world in order to preserve her memories and power (and to keep certain information from your BBEG). You can introduce these familiars as her newly gained levels with each branch of the story, and she "gains" them as she gains levels. You can describe a bad-guy as having an animal companion that has gotten to where he is because he "recently gained an animal companion that grants him new abilities and hidden knowledge" or "keeps an exotic pet in a cage and talks to it", etc.
In the meantime, she learns how to play her character.
Simply have her level at the same rate as everyone else. When the party is successful, she gets a new animal companion. Have her "absorb" it, or keep it as a companion, or whatever. It represents a set of memories and some lost aspect of her power. *Poof! Level 2!"
As for your story elements, go with well-informed and well-intentioned NPCs who lead the party on. Drop clues everywhere. Be very descriptive when it comes to the cultists. Have some agents of the cultists rough the players up "We're in charge around here! You'll shut up and let us search your gear for contraband, or else!" or even imprison some nice NPC and they need to rescue them. The key is to have the players REACT to situations until they gain the cognizance to ACT on their own.
Save the metaphysics stuff for more advanced storytelling.
Another take on the witch player:
When I started pathfinder, I played a dragon blooded sorcerer/dragon disciple. I wanted to play a gish. So I created this awesome character who was primarily a caster and had him run up next to people and claw them. Then I started asking myself questions like "Why am I completely ineffective in battle? Why do I die all of the time?"
My next character was a Sage Sorcerer. I'd read about this incredibly cheesy trick with Paragon Surge that would allow my sorcerer to do EVERYTHING. So while waiting for level 6, I began constructing a spell list for a sorcerer that could do EVERYTHING. It was all over the place.
Then I read Treantmonk's Guide to the God Wizard, and the light dawned.
You see, nobody had ever explained why you focus on one thing to me. I knew that there were these people who turned their magic users into buffers, debuffers, and battlefield controllers, but what was the point? After all, wasn't rolling lots of dice what an arcane caster was for?
Reading that guide was huge. Even if you're playing a non-wizard caster, it's huge. I'd recommend it to every new player just so that they can understand the mentality behind being a caster. Forge of Combat is an excellent follow-on guide, as it explains a rather traditionalist view of team tactics.
When I was in school, they always told me "you've got to learn what the rules are before you can break them with the exceptions." Still totally true.
And hey, if you're trying to get her to use her hexes, have you passed her the guide for that?
Though I completely agree with the people who are saying "choose a different class and reskin/reflavor." It doesn't sound like she's happy with the Witch class, and there are plenty of ways to play a witch character.
Witch: Respec, obviously not prepared/understanding what a caster does or is capable of. You said this player is new (or I assumed) and casters are difficult, there are FAR too many choices per action, each spell being significantly different from one another.
What she would respec into is up to you and her.
Campaign: Your witch and barb are going off the tracks. Give them a reason to come back.
I suggest making it personal. This is what back stories are for; find someone they care about and mess them up. Kill em, capture and torture, etc.
IF they have no loved ones (as many characters seem to share this affliction, it must be a requirement to adventure) then kill them and let them deal with the penalties associated with being resurrected or even reincarnated.
OR steal some of their items.
ok...so i really REALLY wanted to read everyones responses, but was crunched for time. sry if this was hit on and rejected -
LET THE WORLD END! i know, it goes against what u designed for the world and game, but give the players a few more sessions to try to make some headway. if they dont, then the cults are successful and they bring about the Apocalypse. the u have a nifty new setting where ur witch's little fey are all dead and its literally the end of the world. have the characters meet up with maybe the last few survivors of the "good guys" and set them on a quest to destroy the 4 relics of the Horsemen to banish them back to Abaddon. if they f&~+ around again, they die and its time for a new game/
thoughts???
I have to admit it does sound a bit like your group needs more structure and episodic adventuring than a homebrew. It might be a good idea to run them through a regular AP or just some modules to get them used to the game mechanics before they go off in the crazy realm that is everything you can do with roleplaying.
It might also work to lower the magic level and have them stick to a simpler roleplaying theme than the far out there stuff.
I also agree with Banizal. If you have a certain plot set up and they fail to stop the apocalypse in time, then have it come about and the end of the world happens. Yes a GM is supposed to be the host of the game and do what the player's want to a certain extent, but unless you're playing a no-rules kind of adventure there should be consequences to actions. Otherwise it's just a bunch of Mary-Sue's running around doing whatever.
... Making an "I'm a special snowflake" character is a sign of an inexperienced player...
Not sure I agree with this. But it depends upon what you mean by 'special snowflake' character.
1) I usually see that as meaning not following any guide and wanting something unique.
2) Sometimes I see it used as a derogatory term for making a stupid build just because it sounds good.
3) I've also occasionally seen it used for any ineffective character. (I really disagree with this definition, but I see it every once in a while.)
If you meant 1), I disagree with you. By that definition, all my characters are snowflakes. I eventually got tired of playing all the 'standard' builds. Then I start looking at weird and unusual ways to accomplish my role within the party.
If you meant 2), then yeah that does tend to be new players.
If you meant 3), then, I kinda disagree. Anyone can have a character that doesn't work as well as expected.
Oops. Ha yeah.
Someone directed my attention here and I didn't realize how old it was. I usually try not to necro old threads. Sorry about that.
Although personally, I'd like to know if the world ended. That would be kinda awesome. :)
I'm still wondering. C'mon, OP, don't leave us hanging here! :D