flanking with a ranged character..how to


Advice


OK, so I've been playing a sneak attacking archer for a while now and I love the play style. But one of the biggest drawbacks is that you don't get a flanking bonus ever with a bow, even if you threaten properly and have all the snap shot feats because in the flanking description it specifically says "melee" weapon.

I have successfully found a way around this and I am kinda pissed I didn't discover it before. There is a teamwork feat called "Gang Up" which states that you are counted as flanking a target if at least two allies are threatening it, regardless of weather or not those two are flanking with each other. I am now using this feat as I have recently dipped into inquisitor.

Say goodbye to not getting my sneak attacks anymore!!!


Another great idea I found at the same time that I discover this one is a nifty little trick that let's you use the ever so fun bullrush/trip CMB from Impact Critical Shot without having to actually score a critical hit. Again this requires that you be able to sneak attack. If you take "Sneaking Precision" feat you can apply the bullrush/trip on a second sneak attack in a round...this is going to become my favorite trick and my GM is going to hate me for it. I can't wait to see who these two combinations working together.


There was a ruling that Gang-Up only applies to Melee attacks, not Ranged, sadly.


Teamwork Feat: Enfilading Fire.


Where was that ruling made? PFS?

And yes enfilading fire is a great substitute although it is not as powerful given that it requires a second teamwork feat and your allies to actually be flanking


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Here


Enfilading Fire does not make you flanking. It gives you a +2 to hit, but it's not the same as being flanking.

There is no way to get ranged flanking in PF.


Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?
The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)

The bold is the problem I have with this ruling because it is my understanding that unless specifically stated in the RAW, a feat or skill applied to all weapons. I can't argue with official rulings, but I honestly think this ruling is in error.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Snap Shot feat.


Snap shot does not let you as the archer flank. It only let's you threaten the enemy so that your allies can gain the flanking benifit

Grand Lodge

So...is this for PFS? If so, your WAY out of luck. Is this for a home game? If so, talk with you GM. Honestly I let you sneak attack if you threaten and are in position to flank even without the gang up feat. Have nice rational discussion and you may find it not that hard to play you concept.


yea this i pretty dumb, and needs to be fixed IMO.

If the target is already flanked, a ranged sneak attacker should get his sneak attack.

Let's say you set some dogs on it that you have the gang up or outflank teamwork feat with, why not?

What if two members of your party are flanking it, and you have precise shot, why not?

there should be ways to do this.


Balance. They've been getting close to but ultimately not allowing ranged flanks now for a while, and no such option was available in Ultimate Combat. Seems likely that they're avoiding it purposefully.

Lantern Lodge

Shimesen wrote:
Snap shot does not let you as the archer flank. It only let's you threaten the enemy so that your allies can gain the flanking benifit

+1

Snap shot does let you threaten an enemy so your allies can still use you to flank.

If you are using a range weapon you can't don't gain the flanking bonus, but given that is just one of the trade off you get for being able to attack at range.


Yes, this is for a home game. And here's what I have so far on this ruling:

Flanking- when making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Gang Up- you are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Sneak attack- the rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a dexterity bonus to AC, or when the rogue flanks her target.

With all that said, I can agree that as far as the +2 benefit from flanking, I would not receive it as I am not using a melee weapon. However, with gang up I am counted as flanking and there for should receive my sneak attack dice. Agreed?


Cheapy wrote:
Balance. They've been getting close to but ultimately not allowing ranged flanks now for a while, and no such option was available in Ultimate Combat. Seems likely that they're avoiding it purposefully.

meh it ruins certain rouge concepts, especially the dagger throwers.

Daggers are techincally a melee weapon, there could a specific errata just for daggers as long as they are used within 30 feet as per normal. Maybe a feat or feat tree.

Im fine with archers not getting it as they are powerful enough

Grand Lodge

Shimesen wrote:

Yes, this is for a home game. And here's what I have so far on this ruling:

Flanking- when making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

Gang Up- you are considered to be flanking an opponent if at least two of your allies are threatening that opponent, regardless of your actual positioning.

Sneak attack- the rogue's attack deals extra damage anytime her target would be denied a dexterity bonus to AC, or when the rogue flanks her target.

With all that said, I can agree that as far as the +2 benefit from flanking, I would not receive it as I am not using a melee weapon. However, with gang up I am counted as flanking and there for should receive my sneak attack dice. Agreed?

Officially...no.

Unofficially, I require even less then that in my games. Like I said, snap shot + flank position = sneak attack for me. So talk with you GM...honestly NOTHING we say here matters.


Cold Napalm wrote:

Officially...no.

Unofficially, I require even less then that in my games. Like I said, snap shot + flank position = sneak attack for me. So talk with you GM...honestly NOTHING we say here matters.

My gm ruled a while back that snap shot didn't let me flank. I am hoping this will be different.

Grand Lodge

Shimesen wrote:
Cold Napalm wrote:

Officially...no.

Unofficially, I require even less then that in my games. Like I said, snap shot + flank position = sneak attack for me. So talk with you GM...honestly NOTHING we say here matters.

My gm ruled a while back that snap shot didn't let me flank. I am hoping this will be different.

Well getting a bunch of people on the net to say well that seems fine is hardly likely to change the outcome. So talk with you GM...possible over pizza on why you think he should houserule the way you want to make your character concept work. How you interact with him is MUCH more likely to effect the outcome then what is said on this thread.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

What is your race/level?


Lol. Very true. So what did you guys think about the sneaking precision idea I had? I know that that one work, but could it be an effective tool?


pizza always helps everything.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
What is your race/level?

Don't laugh...or cry...

Fetchling level 25
4 rogue
8 fighter
10 ninja
3 imquisitor

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Improved Dark Sight feat and Deeper Darkness.

Goz Mask and Obscuring Mist.

By the way, how do you have Ninja and Rogue levels?

Ninja is Rogue, just an advanced archetype.


They are completely desperate base classes in the core rulebooks. I agree with you though. A ninja is just a rogue archetype in my eyes. It was a build flaw to answer your question. I originally didn't see the need for ninja, but later decided I wanted it. If I could rebuild and have 14 in ninja I would...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

No.

RAW, Ninja is Rogue.

Ninja can even take Rogue archetypes, and effects that only target/effect Rogues, effect Ninjas.

They are one, and the same.

It is tantamount to having a Cleric multiclassing into a Cleric of a different god.


Maybe I am just over thinking here, but I am curious to know how/why the ruling was made that ranged sneak attacks couldn't be made with flanking. As I see it, a rogue with snap shot threatens and there for counts as flanking for his allies. But in reality to flank means to be on opposite sides and sense the sneak attack description doesn't specify needing the +2 benefit of flanking, just the descriptor, why don't they get sneak attack.

I'm just curious how the conclusion was made. Seems like someone stretched the RAW a bit far because they thought sneak attack archers were OP


blackbloodtroll wrote:

No.

RAW, Ninja is Rogue.

Ninja can even take Rogue archetypes, and effects that only target/effect Rogues, effect Ninjas.

They are one, and the same.

It is tantamount to having a Cleric multiclassing into a Cleric of a different god.

You are gonna have to show me that ruling, because according to ultimate combat they are completely independent classes

[Edit] never mind, I found it in ultimate combat where it says " alternate class version"

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Yes.

As I said, Ninja is Rogue, and Samurai is Cavalier.

Basically, he has 14 levels of Rogue.


Yeah. I just did the rebuild. Ironically the only thing I lost was the archetype abilities from sniper (which are all obsolete to me now thanks to equipment) and evasion which since I had two master trick slots opened up, I just replaced my bleeding attack nt with it since it was pretty useless to me at lvl 25. Not enough extra damage to be worth it since the bleed damage doesn't stack per hit

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