Taking a 20 on strength checks


Rules Questions


A player in my game last night said that he was going to take a 20 on a strength check to burst rope that he was bound with. He explained that he previously read that this was a thing and laughs at anyone who takes escape artist because apparently you can just flex for like 20 minutes until your bindings explode. Any clarifications on that?


if there is no penalty for failure, AND time is usually the rules for taking 20.

Liberty's Edge

RAW it seems he is correct at being able to take 20. I would house rule the hell out of that if someone tried to, though, by making them do fort saves every minute which increase in dc constantly or become fatigued/exhausted. OR make the player flex for the next 20 minutes of play. Ever try flexing continuously?


it isn't often you can take 20 min(?) uninteruppted... ie getting poked... and that is assuming that his 20 will actually get out of it... prob better to take 20 on escape >.> think it'd be easier...


It would only be 20 rounds, I believe (twenty times the time it takes to perform the action, a round in this case). So 2 minutes, not 20 (unless there's a rule I don't know).

But you can take 20 under the following conditions -

1. There is no penalty for failure (like setting off a trap).
2. You want to take the time to do it (the action takes twenty times longer than normal).
3. Some other circumstance that a GM may rule where taking 20 is not an option (like trying to spy on a house in the darkness).

I would like to point out that Breaking Bindings (rope) is the Binder's CMB + 20 (I think). This would be really hard against anyone with any CMB at all. Further, Manacles can be broken only with a DC 26 or 28 (masterwork) strength check. That requires a 22 or 26 strength, respectively. Hard to get. The escape artist check is more practical, typically. Also easier to increase.

Liberty's Edge

TheRedArmy wrote:
would like to point out that Breaking Bindings (rope) is the Binder's CMB + 20 (I think).

Not exactly:DC to break a hemp rope is 23, dc to break a silk rope is 24, Spider's Silk is 25, chains are 26. By theory, a 1st level character with maxed out strength could take 20 and break all three ropes, but not the chain.

An average character with one rank in escape artist as a class-skill and a dex of 12 can get out of anything, as long as the rope tier's cmb is less than 5. So anything other than ANOTHER 1st level character with maxed out stats, mostly.

Escape artist is not only more plausible, in many cases its more effective.


Acid Splash (Sp)... takes maybe 20 seconds?

Grand Lodge

Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).


I don't see where is the problem with taking 20 in that situation.
That could grant success to a strong character, which makes sense, but not all characters would succeed.
All the GM and player have to do is to give to the attempt enough suspense , as if the character was pushing his strength to break free.
Which is what he would be doing anyway, but in a "take 20" action instead of rolling again and again as a player.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take (usually 2 minutes for a skill that takes 1 round or less to perform).

The escape artist check I believe takes 1 minute per attempt, so 20 minutes to take a 20 on that, but I was mistaken with the strength check taking 20 minutes.

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Keep in mind that trying to break out will probably be obvious, with much grunting and squirming. Just post a guard in the room to smack him in the side of the head every time he tries.

Liberty's Edge

IejirIsk wrote:
Acid Splash (Sp)... takes maybe 20 seconds?

Probably 2, but there you go thinking outside the box. That's illegal.

As for the problem (IMHO) with taking twenty on a strength check, under a situation like that where you are bound, you are likely not at your peak, physically. Probably not a lot of room. It is notoriously difficult to break free of ropes (even duct tape is hard, trust me, I know) and allowing anyone to take 20 on something like a strength check doesn't make sense to me when there is no room for you to move your arms to gain leverage, and you are using some of the weaker muscles in the body. But, that goes into my overall dislike in how strength gets handled in most games anyways. (No, I don't have any better ideas to make it work. I'm not that smart.)

BUT, there kind of is a consequence if you fail, in an abstract way. If you fail, you eventually will be either killed or tortured or something bad. Friends don't usually tie you up and leave you there.


Taking 20 to try to break out of being tied up makes perfect sense.
If you have an uninterrupted 2 minutes to work on trying to break out then you will have enough time to do as well as it is possible for you to do...
But remember the Strength check to burst a rope is NOT to break out of being tied up, it is to just break the rope.
Getting out of being tied up works differently:

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

And for reference:

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check.

So if someone with a CMB higher than yours ties you up you CANNOT break out. Even on a 20. No matter how strong you are.

Sczarni

The condition: There is no penalty for failure (like setting off a trap). - The penalty for failing a break free attempt is to be bound. Thus no take 20. But he can just sit there and try 20 times (or more) and get out if he is not being watched. So why fight it.


Interzone wrote:

Taking 20 to try to break out of being tied up makes perfect sense.

If you have an uninterrupted 2 minutes to work on trying to break out then you will have enough time to do as well as it is possible for you to do...
But remember the Strength check to burst a rope is NOT to break out of being tied up, it is to just break the rope.
Getting out of being tied up works differently:

Tie Up: If you have your target pinned, otherwise restrained, or unconscious, you can use rope to tie him up. This works like a pin effect, but the DC to escape the bonds is equal to 20 + your Combat Maneuver Bonus (instead of your CMD). The ropes do not need to make a check every round to maintain the pin. If the DC to escape from these bindings is higher than 20 + the target's CMB, the target cannot escape from the bonds, even with a natural 20 on the check.

And for reference:

Pinned: A pinned creature is tightly bound and can take few actions. A pinned creature cannot move and is denied its Dexterity bonus.. A pinned character also takes an additional –4 penalty to his Armor Class. A pinned creature is limited in the actions that it can take. A pinned creature can always attempt to free itself, usually through a combat maneuver check or Escape Artist check.

So if someone with a CMB higher than yours ties you up you CANNOT break out. Even on a 20. No matter how strong you are.

That's only for trying to escape using a combat maneuver check or escape artist check.

The DC to "burst rope bonds" is DC23. What rope bonds are you bursting if not the ones used to tie you up?

Liberty's Edge

The DC to break rope is 23. The DC to break rope bonds is the same. If you see the bound condition itself as worthy of a circumstance modifier due to inability to apply full leverage or strength, that is an option for adjusting the check a bit. The take 20 option itself is fine.


Take 20 is certainly OK in this case. But remember, you have to have Strength 16 for the weakest rope! So, for your typical fighter, OK. For your typical rogue or wizard not so much...


maouse wrote:
The condition: There is no penalty for failure (like setting off a trap). - The penalty for failing a break free attempt is to be bound. Thus no take 20. But he can just sit there and try 20 times (or more) and get out if he is not being watched. So why fight it.

So the penalty for failing is failing? How could you ever take 20?

Grand Lodge

So, only if the penalty for failure is success, can you Take 20?

What the hell does that mean?

Who hates take 20?

It's a god damn time saver.

That's why it exists.


FWIW, I'd make them fatigued or something until they'd rested for a comparable amount of time (ie a further twenty rounds).

Nonetheless, I dont see the point in not allowing it - taking twenty isnt a real 'thing' it's just about reducing the number of die rolls.

There's no in-game difference between someone taking twenty and someone rolling lots and lots of dice until it works or they give up. It's just quicker to play out the first way. If you're going to let the player keep rolling lots of attempts, you should let them take twenty.

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Steve Geddes wrote:

FWIW, I'd make them fatigued or something until they'd rested for a comparable amount of time (ie a further twenty rounds).

Nonetheless, I dont see the point in not allowing it - taking twenty isnt a real 'thing' it's just about reducing the number of die rolls.

There's no in-game difference between someone taking twenty and someone rolling lots and lots of dice until it works or they give up. It's just quicker to play out the first way. If you're going to let the player keep rolling lots of attempts, you should let them take twenty.

Exactly this. The purpose of take 20 is to shorten an instance where the player would keep rolling over and over until he/she gets a 20 anyway and just get on with the game.

That's the real litmus test for whether taking 20 is allowed - could the player just sit there rolling over and over until they get a result they like? Then have them take 20 and move on.

A couple thoughts on "realism." First, why are you tying up someone with a bodybuilder physique with a single loop of cheap rope and expecting it to hold? The breaking a rope DC assumes you're breaking one rope, not many loops. Any proper knot/lashing used for this purpose will hold if a single loop of the rope is broken. I'd use the 20+CMB to represent the DC for a properly tied up person.


I dont have a massive problem with this. Its more his explanation of "flexing" that is leaving a bad taste. If he described it as struggling, twisting, etc..It wouldnt come off as bad. Beyond that for it to work you have to be of exemplary strength. Assuming in your campaigns 18 are actually rare and represent the strongest of non magically modified humans you are talking about an olympic power lifter here. If he had several minutes, uninterupted to struggle loose from a rope tied around his wrists, I think its not unreasonable that he could force the bonds loose...it may not even be that the rope breaks, but that the knot itself is tied in a manner where it cant be brute forced.

Now if I was standing gaurd and I saw the WWF wrestler we tied up with a little piece of hemp railing like a wild man at his bonds...I would club him into unconciousness disrupting the "take 20" but YMMV...certainly the stealth check needed to hide the herculean effort would be pretty steep.

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