how good is quick / gtr dirty trick?


Advice


I am thinking about updating my guide for twfing for the fighter class.

Wondering if Gtr/quick dirty trick is worth it for a twfer to build around.

Before level 10 the king of maneuvers is trip. After 10 it becomes a lot less useful because of flight being common, among other things like multiple legs.

Now if you already built a trip twfer, it might be worth it to swap it out at 12th and get the dirty trick line.

I am not playing any fighters at the moment so am after people's opinions.


I quite like it.

Blinded is a really tough condition, and is often going to make your iterative attacks a step stronger (-2 AC and loose dex bonus to AC).

That 50% miss chance is too much for most enemies, and they might end up spending their standard action removing the condition. Until of course they realize that you blind them again the following round.

Blinding enemies is a lot stronger than tripping in my opinion, lowering AC, reducing the offensive capabilities, removing their threatened area, and is applicable against most enemies.

On top of this, as far as I know (and could be wrong), you can always make several Tricks to add the other conditions as well.


Once you get Gtr Dirty Trick, it better than trip in many ways.

You don't get the free AoOs, which can be quite a few if your opponent is threatened by multiple allies, and if you spent a feat on Combat Reflexes, but the penalty imposed is often greater, the penalty is more versatile, the check is often easier, nothing is flat out immune to it, and it costs a Standard, not a move, to remove it.

Blind is hands down better than trip to anything affected by it. The penalty to AC is at least as good and the penalty to attack is way better. You can now trip and disarm it sans feats without fear of provoking. The party Rogue is your new best friend.

Shaken stacks with demoralize, sickened's penalty stacks with both and sets up the party spellcaster.

Oh, and with Quick trick, you can nearly trick lock. Once they spend their standard to pull their hat off their eyes, there's not much of use they can do with that move action that doesn't provoke, then you trick them again with the AoO.

Start with imp trip and train it out a 6th and pick up imp/gtr trick. Don't wait till 12.


Why I like it is it takes a standard to remove.

You either deal with a tough condition or waste your full attack to remove it.

Dazing assault is good but the save is not too hard.
Vs CMD? I wonder what is better.


The feats are great for a few reasons :
Avoiding back and slash- making combat fun
Combo with rouges - casters to boost them
Blind = no AOo so move and position


While you can add weapon enhacement, dex (furys fall) and some other stuff (weap. training) to trip cmb, you cant do that for dirty tricks. Thats why its harder to get your cmb up, what actually really sucks. I love DT but its hard to make it work eally good. A maneuver master monk who could perform multiple dirty tricks per round while still attacking sounds like a lot of fun to me - but Ive not figured out yet how to keep him viable into the higher levels

BUT keep in mind that one level dip of MMM gives you DT as part of your full attack, combined with aybe lore warden this could actually rock! But I'd go for a more dex focused kind of build with dervish dance then.


Wasum wrote:
While you can add weapon enhacement, dex (furys fall) and some other stuff (weap. training) to trip cmb, you cant do that for dirty tricks.

Is this actually the case?

As far as I can see it, quick dirty trick is worded exactly like the combat maneuvers that can be made using a weapon.


Well I am thinking about either a two weapon Warrior or mobile fighter.

Gtr weapon fcs +2
Gtr dirty trick +4
Two weapon Training +4
DUELIST gloves (gm allowing)+2
Touch of Rage (starts at +2 and scales to +10 with the right build)
Full BAB
Weapon enhancement

Will it stick?


Somewhere there's a sidebar that says only trip, sunder and disarm can be made with weapons. But I cant look it up right now.


Would you add an amulet of mighty fists enhancement to it?


My GM allowed me to add my AoMF to my dirty tricks, but not every GM might do that.

An alternative route you might wanna go for is a 1 level dip into Maneuver Master Monk.
Now you can make 1 free maneuver per round, no matter which, even if it normally is a standard action, in addition to your normal full attack.

Obviously you take a -1 hit on BAB for the dip (that doesn't apply to the maneuver, however that one takes a seperate -2 penalty), and you are now 1 level behind in your main class.
In return you do get a bonus feat (for example to select an Improved maneuver even if you don't meet the prerequisites), IUS, Stunning Fist and a +2 on ALL saves.

That might not be a good idea for every class combo, but I'm sure some people might like it.


I think grapple is the king of maneuvers. The grappled condition itself is pretty tough on a lot of foes, especially spellcasters. Once you have the enemy pinned that's pretty much the end of the fight. Some monsters are very tough to grapple, but many of those same monsters are even tougher to trip.

I kind of regret not taking the Dirty Trick feat chain with my Summoner or his eidolon though. With a +20 from True Strike their tricks would pretty much always work. The idea of using pepper and other spices to blind an enemy or "sicken" them by causing a sneezing fit seems more amusing than Augment Summoning.

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