According to PathfinderWiki both Ihys and Asmodeus are known as the First spontaneously created from the Seal. On a distant planet Asmodeus went to shake the hand of his brother Ihys and thrust a spear through him killing him. The only part of Ihys left is the broken part of the spear know as Ihystear, whereabouts unknown. The assumption is that Asmodeus being smart enough would not hide it in his own lair as that would make finding it to easy, barring the fact the difficulty getting to it. Even on the off chance Asmodeus would not take the chance.
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Warning: may be somewhat controversial:
Personally, I always though the name IHYS looks like a trope from Western art.
IHS is a Latin abbreviation for Jesus. INRI is the inscription above him on the cross.
Ihys was slain by a spear.
This seems to parallel the spear of Longinus.
Seeing this post, I had a theory about the death of Aroden. I think that Aroden may have been a reincarnation of sorts of Ihys. Aroden is just mentioned as being immortal, without a reason why, so being blessed by Ihys could be that reason. And with Ihys being the creator of knowledge, and with Aroden being the patron of knowledge and innovation, there are definite similarities. I believe Aroden may have been recalled or reabsorbed by Ihys, and as such caused the devastation that his disappearance did. Also, Ihys and Aroden could be a metaphor for the Father and the Son. Aroden definitely has some Jesus-like undertones, and Ihys is supposed to be the primal creator.
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So unless I missed something the assertion has been made that Pharasma is the oldest being in the Pathfinder Universe or, at least the oldest deity. In the Book of the Damned it says that Asmodeus was created second making him the second oldest and that Ihys was the first one created by the seal. So if this is to be believed you could make one of the following two conclusions. A. That Pharasma is the Seal which spawned the creation of the Two brothers assuming that the Seal is a sentient being and not just some kind of cosmic force or object. or B. that Ihys was the first sentient being and Asmodeus was the second, who together spawned existence/reality which led to conflict between the two resulting in Asmodeus Killing Ihys which may or may not have been the first death in the multiverse or at least the first death of a god which could have led to the transformation of Ihys into Pharasma as the Goddess of the dead being dead him/herself which would support the idea that Pharasma is the oldest deity in the multiverse making Pharasma Asmodeus' older sister/brother. Could work I don't know.
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So unless I missed something the assertion has been made that Pharasma is the oldest being in the Pathfinder Universe or, at least the oldest deity. In the Book of the Damned it says that Asmodeus was created second making him the second oldest and that Ihys was the first one created by the seal. So if this is to be believed you could make one of the following two conclusions. A. That Pharasma is the Seal which spawned the creation of the Two brothers assuming that the Seal is a sentient being and not just some kind of cosmic force or object. or B. that Ihys was the first sentient being and Asmodeus was the second, who together spawned existence/reality which led to conflict between the two resulting in Asmodeus Killing Ihys which may or may not have been the first death in the multiverse or at least the first death of a god which could have led to the transformation of Ihys into Pharasma as the Goddess of the dead being dead him/herself which would support the idea that Pharasma is the oldest deity in the multiverse making Pharasma Asmodeus' older sister/brother. Could work I don't know.
Or Asmodeus/Book of the Damned is lying.
The Book of the Damned could be full of lies. (Asmodeus trying to make himself look like God-patron of Devilkind, instead of just an ascended Devil.)
The story of Ihys, Asmodeus, and the Seal explictly points out that Qlippoth, Proteans, and Elementals came from something outside the Seal (and therefore possibly before Ihys and Asmodeus.)
Pharasma could be a deliberately Neutral party created by other Gods/Planar powers to oversee the soul trade in the wake of Ihys creating free will.
Pharasma could be a manifestation of said soul trade - de facto making her a creation of Ihys.
Pharasma could be an ascended Psychopomp Usher, and any labels of 'oldest' or 'greatest' are conflating Pharasma the divine being with the organization of psychopomps she leads to oversee birth, death, and fate.
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Seeing this post, I had a theory about the death of Aroden. I think that Aroden may have been a reincarnation of sorts of Ihys. Aroden is just mentioned as being immortal, without a reason why, so being blessed by Ihys could be that reason. And with Ihys being the creator of knowledge, and with Aroden being the patron of knowledge and innovation, there are definite similarities. I believe Aroden may have been recalled or reabsorbed by Ihys, and as such caused the devastation that his disappearance did. Also, Ihys and Aroden could be a metaphor for the Father and the Son. Aroden definitely has some Jesus-like undertones, and Ihys is supposed to be the primal creator.Warning: may be somewhat controversial:
Personally, I always though the name IHYS looks like a trope from Western art.
IHS is a Latin abbreviation for Jesus. INRI is the inscription above him on the cross.
Ihys was slain by a spear.
This seems to parallel the spear of Longinus.
The main flaw I see to this idea is that Ihys and Aroden have radically different alignments -- the sources I am familiar with state that Aroden was Lawful Neutral and imply that Ihys was Chaotic Good.
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Or Asmodeus/Book of the Damned is lying.
Simply loving this entire conversation.
I'm sure Asmodeus is very pleased.
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The greatest trick of the Devil is making you believe that he wants you to believe that he is making you believe that he wants you to believe that he is making you believe that he wants you to believe that he is making you believe that he wants you to believe that [on and on it goes]...
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And through all of the arguing about the historicity of the material in the Book of the Damned, and the timeline of Asmodeus/Ihys/The Seal versus the rest of the cosmos, there are a bunch of keketar proteans gesticulating wildly in the Maelstrom yelling something about, "Dumb kids! Get off our lawn!"
;)
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Or Asmodeus/Book of the Damned is lying.Simply loving this entire conversation.
I'm sure Asmodeus is very pleased.
Great stuff indeed, Big laugh!!
The Biblical references in the story of Ihys and Asmodeus go even deeper than this thread went into, given how this particular aspect seems to be glossed over. Ihys was the god of language and words, because he was the first being to speak and the first to name things. What's significant about that?
Genesis 1:1-2. When God creates the world, he doesn't do it by making gestures or thinking really hard or even by commanding it. He speaks, in a passive language, "Let there be..." and things simply appear by virtue of his having named them and told them to let themselves BE what he has named them.
Light and ground and animals and people and such all existed only once God had told them to let themselves BE what he had NAMED them: the light, the ground, the animals, the people, etc. Later, he gives Adam the task of giving specific names to all of the beasts and plants; this relates to the fundamental message of Genesis, that God has created us "in his image" to be his representative on Earth, and in this sense to continue his task of giving things their discrete qualities as distinct entities by giving them names to set them apart from each other.
Thus: words and names have power, according to the Bible. In giving something a name, it is given a discrete existence and identity. Ihys discovered this power and used it to name himself and his brother, setting them apart from each other and all around them by giving them their own identities and thus, their own qualities. Just as "light" was only given a discrete existence separate from "not-light" when it was called out by name, so naming himself Ihys and his brother Asmodeus gave each of them the qualities and identities that would be "Ihys" and "Asmodeus."
What significance does this have? Well, aside from being yet another tie to the Bible, there's the fact that this means Ihys was more than just a "god of free will." He was, in fact, the "god of WILL." Through his role as god of language and words, Ihys became the god of the very concept of changing the world around you through your own will, be it in the form of words or otherwise. By naming his brother (and then likely the "lesser motes" surrounding them), Ihys shared that gift with him. Then, he did the same thing with the mortals that they created, to give them the power to shape the world through their will (albeit in the sense that mortals have to actually DO stuff to shape the world around them, barring psychics I guess).
As for the argument that Ihys never existed and Asmodeus made him up... if that were true, I don't think he'd have included Sarenrae in the story. Because if it wasn't true, what reason would Sarenrae have not to set the record straight and deny it? She certainly has nothing to gain from people seeing Asmodeus in a more humane, tragic light, or from Tabris's fall. Unless he got her to make some kind of deal with her millennia ago and called it in to make sure she wouldn't ever deny it...
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Eh, Azzy's old news. Didn't have the foresight to turn himself into a corporation.