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During the Island of Empty Eyes module, my players (mostly chaotic neutrals and a neutral evil) came upon the Marid trapped in the well at the Cyclops ruins and bargained her freedom for a wish, as is suggested in the module.
They then used that wish to bring Cut-Throat Grok and Peppery Longfarthing to them, freeing them from Harrigan.
Because Harrigan mutilated them after the race for their back-talk and generally liking the PCs, the party now has two comatose torsoes with them. They now plan to sail to Port Peril and pay someone to cast Regenerate to bring them back to full working condition.
I understand that Grok wasn't very close to Harrigan and wouldn't know his plans with Cheliax (which the modules state he only told to a very few select people). However, Peppery has been established to have been Harrigan's friend for a long time, and The Price of Infamy states that she does know about these plans--it's why Harrigan cut out her tongue. Seeing as this betrayal (and likely later strategy meetings) are going to be much longer than 5 minutes of memories, it'll be hard to write it off as being wiped with a Modify Memory spell.
With a little less than a thousand gold they're logically about to get info on his betrayal a full module and a half early, and are good friends with the Tessa Fairwind, the most popular pirate lord in the Shackles who has already hired them to find traitors spying for Cheliax. Knowing my party, they'll tell her right away and ask to send a full fleet after him. Which she probably would.
Any suggestions for how to keep this from turning this into a super-spoiler and making the entire fifth and maybe sixth module not happen (or happen too early for them to survive?)
They shouldnt have had access to that wish. The first wish is used to release the Marid. They have to wait a year before getting another.
Also seems to me there's some metagaming going on here. I can see why they may have had Grok bought to them as they could easily have made friends with them on the wormwood. But Peppery? stinks of metagaming to me.
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They bargained with it that she would be released the next year. They rolled extremely well on diplomacy and gave proof that they would be there to do it.
Peppery had been established to like them from the first module. I did this so that it would be more powerful in module 5 when they see her all cut to pieces. After they won the race, as Harrigan was sailing away I gave them a glimpse of Harrigan punching out Peppery after she said the line that gets her to that situation. So yes, it was justified in character.
None of this helps me with the question I asked >.>
Well have the council be doubtful, especially Bonefist who pish-toshes or demands proof. Have them hem or haw long enough for the raid to go down on the island or Bonefist off on one of his rare outings, It can demonstrate how unconcerned and negligent Bonefist is about his station.
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No problem. Have Harrigan retreat to Cheliax (two high-value prisoners did just disappear from his fort who he knows have knowledge of his plans after all). He can leave some traps and minimal force in his fort to delay/hurt the PC's if they try to catch him there, but have him be well gone. The players now know something important a bit early so reward them by having the other pirate captains be more supportive than written in the 5th module. I'm sure you can also concoct a reason for the Black Tower stuff if you still want to keep that in there.
The Hurricane King can still be reticent to engage Cheliax believing the Eye will solve the problem for him. Have the PC's lead a force against Fort Hazard since the Hurricane King is sitting on his hands in front of an obviously dangerous enemy.
Then have Harrigan come with the Chelish feat and have the whole thing climax with the battle in the eye. *dusts hands off*
Or just ignore the fact Peppery knows about Harrigan's plans. If the PC's challenge this, you'll have them bang to rights for metagaming. Just because the book says one thing doesn't mean you can't change it. :D
They bargained with it that she would be released the next year. They rolled extremely well on diplomacy and gave proof that they would be there to do it.
Peppery had been established to like them from the first module. I did this so that it would be more powerful in module 5 when they see her all cut to pieces. After they won the race, as Harrigan was sailing away I gave them a glimpse of Harrigan punching out Peppery after she said the line that gets her to that situation. So yes, it was justified in character.None of this helps me with the question I asked >.>
So the Marid (usually a) mighty and b), smarter, more clever and far more devious than any bunch of humans) grants wishes based on Diplomacy ...founded on the offer of release the next year from a bunch of Pirates ?
*rolls under the table, laughing*
Ok, I might have slightly stricter ideas about the utter deviousness of geniekind.
AND
This smells strongly of meta-gaming, smells even stronger of an unprepared GM. Smells of a rat, or rather smells like the whole warren.
And besides ..for one - who precisely does Harrigan serve, diety-wise ? So how much might Longfarthing and Grok even remember ? Or remember correctly ? And it not being an outright lie ? Would you entrust Grok, a major alcoholic, none too bright with deep foreknowledge on your (Harrigan's) plans, or even helpful hints which would make others question your backstory about Cheliax ?
Speaking for myself, I had a very similar debate with myself over what precisely Kroop would know, and decided to mind-wipe him (wouldn't you in Harrigans place ?), which already gave the players quite a worry about other powers Harrigan commanded.
Hey, in an emergency make Peppery the very charismatic, but Cheliax bred and born deep agent of the Thrune-admirality on board the "Wormwood" ? Who said evil agents could not be charismatic, alluring and even friendly ?
Nevermind, the players..... wishing for the "timely" relase of two NPCs just prior to facing off with Harrigan.Instead of positively boosting one of their own ?
Yeah. Pull the other one, it go bells on it.....
as for your question : you scr**ed up. In a major way. Now drop a satellite launched piano on your group.
Nevermind Diplomacy is not the skill based "convince anyone of everything stupid" sort of power. It is the ability to negotiate, and negoiate well, but not to the point of the opposition going brain dead.
Ah I see they made peppery friendly. Makes sense now. I would go mikeawmids idea. She knows nothing, it makes no difference then she could just say harrigan has flipped.
Out of interest did she do as books 3 said and sent the invisible stalker after the PC's when they were in the race? If not then that's you're perfect cover. He lashed out at her for disobyeing an order, or if she did do it, as it went wrong and did nothing for the players but helped to disqualify him he lashed out at her.
This way you don't have to do anything and the story carries on as normal.
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Thanks to everyone who gave useful advice. I believe I'll use a bit of a combination of the ideas here--Peppery knowing that Harrigan's been acting very unusual lately but not knowing his deal with Cheliax, or possibly she did know and has had some mind wiping done, with obvious holes in her memory. Knowing my players it's highly unlikely they are metagaming, but I will be keeping an eye out for any signs.
To answer ferrinwulf's question, she did send the stalkers after the PCs as written--she felt bad, but captain's orders.
Of course, while she is Harrigan's old friend there's nothing to say she won't want to get revenge for having nearly every part of her body lopped off. At the very least she can give the layout of his fortress in place of finding Scag's journal. At this point the players don't even know Harrigan has a fortress, and have been operating under the assumption that the Wormwood is his only ship. So it should get them into a bit of a panic when she tells them about the small fleet of ships he has.
Of course, while she is Harrigan's old friend there's nothing to say she won't want to get revenge for having nearly every part of her body lopped off. At the very least she can give the layout of his fortress in place of finding Scag's journal. At this point the players don't even know Harrigan has a fortress, and have been operating under the assumption that the Wormwood is his only ship. So it should get them into a bit of a panic when she tells them about the small fleet of ships he has.
yeah well. Though in a sense I wonder how Peppery etc. knew/know the story of the PCs escape. But that is a matter of the author's perspective
And of course one may consciously not observe the "these characters cannot be influenced" ruling from the first part.
Simple question - why didn't the character s try to recruit/rescue Grok, Peppery or whoever in AP#3 ?
Oh, and if the wish is still "in fulfillment" and the two subjects have not been delivered... feel nasty and send them the dead corpses, since effectively (yes nasty) there is no reason to keep these two alive, campaign-wise. I guess the marid does not care on just how the wish gets fulfilled.
On the other hand, Grok, will need a Greater Restoration (at roughly 13th level of clerical casting... not too many of those around, nevermind the cost ) anyways, why not the same for Peppery ? Tongueless, eyeless, handless... might just drive someone to a catatonic or mentally disabled state, and how precisely will the PC know her condition before they have applied Regenerations ?
Oh, and if the wish is still "in fulfillment" and the two subjects have not been delivered... feel nasty and send them the dead corpses, since effectively (yes nasty) there is no reason to keep these two alive, campaign-wise. I guess the marid does not care on just how the wish gets fulfilled.
On the other hand, Grok, will need a Greater Restoration (at roughly 13th level of clerical casting... not too many of those around, nevermind the cost ) anyways, why not the same for Peppery ? Tongueless, eyeless, handless... might just drive someone to a catatonic or mentally disabled state, and how precisely will the PC know her condition before they have applied Regenerations ?
My players are still in Book One, but I am seriously considering re-jigging the whole 'everyone you previously met on the Wormowood has been horribly mutilated' angle when they eventually reach Harrigan's fortress. One of the players in particular (playing a Dhampir surgeon) developed a personal hatred for Hably Quarne (Peppery Longfarthing's cellmate in Book 5) and to find him in that position will cheat the player of what would otherwise be a cool confrontation.
I get the impression that whoever wrote that module has a bit of a 'thing' for dismemberment, was he the same guy that wrote Book 5 of Shattered Star (with all the mutilated giants)?
I get the impression that whoever wrote that module has a bit of a 'thing' for dismemberment, was he the same guy that wrote Book 5 of Shattered Star (with all the mutilated giants)?
Don't think so :
Richard Pett ( for Shattered Star AP#5)
vs.
Tim Hitchcock ( for Skulls and Shackles AP#5)
Basically no comparison, but I will freely admit to being a great fan of Richard Pett's works, and the 5th part of Shattered Star being basically the only thing (IMHO) to be worth reading in that path^^.
I guess, Mr. Pett will freely dismember anything in any adventure ! And, sorry Mr Hitchcock
Hitchcock's always mangling my NPCs, it's time he had a mauling back:) Hmmmmmmmmm....
Hitchcock's always mangling my NPCs, it's time he had a mauling back:) Hmmmmmmmmm....
Wonderful to know, when will we see the dismemberment rematch ?
*breaks out the popcorn*and, oh fugg, since you obviously read this : Sir, let me put it this way, you have a beautiful mind to steal from !
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My advice: don't punish them. What they've done can create a really interesting plot twist. This is the beauty of tabletop gaming. Run with it!
If I were running things, I'd have Peppery know exactly what she's supposed to know in the published adventure -- but since they are rescuing her several months early, maybe she doesn't know quite as many details.
So yes, now the PCs have a much more urgent mission to stop Harrigan's plan. They'll need to come up with a strategy for doing that. And like sabadoriaclark said, he should be fully tipped off that they're on to him. So maybe he flees to Cheliax to join the fleet. Or maybe he fortifies his base to resist the inevitable assault.
If the PCs simply tell Tessa and then expect her to just sort it out somehow, then you could use an old GM standby: she fails, disappearing without a trace. Now the PCs' patron is out of the picture, and they now know that things are *really* bad! (It was good enough for Tolkien!)
They will then probably be feeling too under-leveled to just go face Harrigan themselves -- that's good! That's your chance to get them back on the level progression that Chapter 5 expects them to have. If they're no longer interested in cleaning out their island, give them side quests to retrieve powerful weapons and equipment that they will need for the big showdown. Or you could encourage them to finish the island and throw the feast as planned -- what better venue for them to reveal to the Free Captains that invasion is upon them!
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So the Marid (usually a) mighty and b), smarter, more clever and far more devious than any bunch of humans)
Hold on a sec.
Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16
Marid aren't really that much more cunning or smart than your average party rogue. I think you're probably projecting a lot of story bias on them. I mean, after all, this one got stuck in a well.
Marid aren't really that much more cunning or smart than your average party rogue. I think you're probably projecting a lot of story bias on them. I mean, after all, this one got stuck in a well.
Author's note: The marid didn't get "stuck" in the well. The more powerful cyclopes of Ghol-Gan used arcane means beyond the skill of most civilizations remaining on Golarion to imprison her there. In addition, that same magic was used to force wishes and other spells from her (on demand).
As for the OP's question, I do think you played through that encounter in a way you shouldn't have. No amount of Diplomacy should have convinced Vailea to give the PCs a wish before they set her free. To do otherwise would simply perpetuate the same slavery the cyclopes subjected her to over all the centuries she's been imprisoned there. Her inclusion in IoEE wasn't to give the PCs access to wish magic right away. It was meant to provide them a delayed reward equivalent to a ring of three wishes somewhere down the road after the campaign is over...i.e., one per year for three years, assuming a party of four PCs and one of them was kind enough to wish her free. Presumably, they'll have set themselves up as leaders of the Shackles in place of the former Hurricane King and those wishes could come in handy to fend off those who try to unseat them, whether they be fellow pirates or more reprisals from Cheliax.
Regardless, now that you've gone down this path, you're on a slippery slope. The best course would be to change what Harrigan's former shipmates know and provide the PCs no substantive information that derails the campaign. Or, make it so that Harrigan provided Peppery with false information which leads the PCs astray. There are plenty of ways to twist the campaign back on track.
My two cents,
--Neil
I mean, after all, this one got stuck in a well.
:D
Laugh of the Day, Lucent!
I take Neil's point about the Marid's delayed wish being useful "down the road" in a post-AP ongoing Shackles campaign, but as a practical matter how often do groups continue a campaign in that manner? I'm sure some groups might do so, or revisit old characters or an old setting from time to time, but in most cases once a campaign/AP has wrapped up don't folks usually move on to something new?
That being the case, the Marid encounter as written basically means the PCs are freeing her out of the goodness of their hearts, as her offered wish is never going to be of any use within the time frame of the AP.... and if the PCs pick up on this, it means she really has nothing to bargain with in asking for her freedom.
I noticed this when I first read the module, and assuming (a) my PCs survive this long and (b) I haven't substantially reworked this part of the AP by then, I plan on having her offer them a one-use Wish Ring (or similar item) as reward for freeing her, to be delivered as soon as she can return to her Elemental Plane and arrange for the thing to be created. This means the PCs will have to trust her to keep her word (hee, hee, hee...) but will give them access to useful magic further down the AP path when they most likely will really need it.
...the Marid encounter as written basically means the PCs are freeing her out of the goodness of their hearts, as her offered wish is never going to be of any use within the time frame of the AP.... and if the PCs pick up on this, it means she really has nothing to bargain with in asking for her freedom.
Not true...
...I plan on having her offer them a one-use Wish Ring (or similar item) as reward for freeing her, to be delivered as soon as she can return to her Elemental Plane and arrange for the thing to be created.
I'm still not sure that's wise, but it's up to you how you choose to run the campaign. As written, the AP doesn't expect to take the PCs into levels where they'd obtain wish magic. Inserting such power into Books 5 or 6 could potentially unbalance things too far.
But that's just my two cents.
So the Marid (usually a) mighty and b), smarter, more clever and far more devious than any bunch of humans)Hold on a sec.
Marid aren't really that much more cunning or smart than your average party rogue. I think you're probably projecting a lot of story bias on them. I mean, after all, this one got stuck in a well.
Int 14, Wis 15, Cha 16
Wouldn't know. I project onto them the deviousness of Geniekind displayed by the arabic sources. Int 14 would... by an older formula translate into an IQ (hate that) of roughly 140 ? Sounds pretty smart to me. Linked to a chaotic neutral alignment and the whimsical nature of Marids.....
consider this :
The Granting of Wishes
Many tales of genies tell of wishes that go awry,
imperiling the wisher or leaving him to some terrible,
yet often deserved fate. More than moral lessons, such
stories serve as warnings against the fickle and often cruel
natures of these powerful beings. In any case, a genie’s
wishes are powerful and might easily be bent or honored
depending on the whims of the jinn granting them, how
the genie is treated by his captors, and whether the genie
is good or evil. Sometimes even the most seemingly
beneficent jinn might attempt such trickery, viewing an
overly literal or otherwise mischievous interpretation of a
wisher’s commands as educational or character-building
in some twisted sense. Any character attempting to have
a genie grant his wish might make an opposed Sense
Motive check to determine whether or not a genie might
attempt to maliciously misconstrue his wish. In the cases
of genies a character might find bound or otherwise
enslaved to service, a GM might allow characters to make
DC 25 Diplomacy, Knowledge (nobility and royalty), or
Knowledge (the planes) checks to glean what offerings a
genie might favor and thus make it more likely to grant a
wish without mischief.
from Pathfinder #21 by Wolfgang Baur
I'd say some cruelty and "teaching" aspect might be well within the limits of the wishes ? Oh, and nevermind the binding of genies due to arcane forces by the Seals of Sulesh (more material from the Legacy of Fire AP? ), so getting "stuck" is more a matter of anti-genie mechanics, than a measure of the marid's power.
oh, and offer the lady Marid (sure to attract some male suitors) a nice corally cave on your island and voila, you have a very powerful, smart and flexible ally.... which might.... ahem blow a certain Eel straight out of the bay ? so, setting her free ? Wise choice ?
I mean, after all, this one got stuck in a well.:D
Laugh of the Day, Lucent!
I take Neil's point about the Marid's delayed wish being useful "down the road" in a post-AP ongoing Shackles campaign, but as a practical matter how often do groups continue a campaign in that manner? I'm sure some groups might do so, or revisit old characters or an old setting from time to time, but in most cases once a campaign/AP has wrapped up don't folks usually move on to something new?
That being the case, the Marid encounter as written basically means the PCs are freeing her out of the goodness of their hearts, as her offered wish is never going to be of any use within the time frame of the AP.... and if the PCs pick up on this, it means she really has nothing to bargain with in asking for her freedom.
Granted, not every group continues an AP beyond it's Book 6 resolution. Fair enough. However, for the groups that don't keep playing, sure, freeing the Marid is an act of unrewarded kindness for the players. The characters though would still see the wishes down the road as an excellent and proper reward. Last time I checked, characters within the narrative don't know they'll cease to exist or have meaning once they've beaten "Book Six", unless at least one of those characters is Deadpool. Characters basing their acts of goodwill off of out-of-game reward motivation smacks of shenanigans to me. Regardless of if the players "pick up on this", the Marid still has everything to bargain with in asking for her freedom because she's not bargaining with the players.
Note: I'm not accusing the OP's group of shenanigans. I'm merely responding to how the Marid's bargaining position is being represented.
Note: I'm not accusing the OP's group of shenanigans. I'm merely responding to how the Marid's bargaining position is being represented.
Nicely put. Especially since the marid cannot even be certain the characters are still around one year hence.
Good points about the Marid as a source of information, and the difference between player and character knowledge. I'm not sure that even the best RP-er is capable of completely setting aside the fact that an item will be useless to his PC (regardless of what the character may or may not know) but at that point we're out in the weeds of the vagarities of human nature anyway, and each individual is going to approach that situation differently.
Given some of the stuff that comes up later (and considering some of the rewrites I've seen suggested for the final showdown, and that I like) I don't think a limited wish is necessarily overpowering - particularly if one considers Vikingson's take on how the Djinn frame their fullfillment of wishes. Not terribly concerned about breaking the campaign there.
I will keep all the above excellent commentary in mind. As I said, my crowd is a loooong way off from this part of the AP, and it may well get revised ala' the suggestions from Saberdoria, Dungeonmeister and others by the time it finally comes up. Very interesting discussion, though.
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My PCs are also focusing on some of the officers in Wormwood Mutiny. They don't know about the injunction against influencing the officers. I agree that the potential for more poignancy in Part 5 is greater if the PCs actually do strike a relation with specifically those officers, so I'm allowing it. Though I did caution that the officers are clearly willing members of the crew and followers of Harrigan so they won't win any participants to a hypothetical cause of mutiny from among the officers, so that should not be their sole focus.
(In my campaign, the cook's mate is a sorceress, so Peppery is taking a professional interest into grooming her into an apprentice. Grok is the QM who has all their gear. It's most certainly in their best interest to get on her good side if they want any hope of being more than "naked".)
I like how you granted the wish and quite correctly gave them dismembered torsos.
Hopefully the possibility of finding loot enough to raise their former officers is incentive enough to continue exploring their island. Until then, a couple of corpses will not in of themselves excuse the party from their upcoming roles as hosts to the Free Captain lords. That's still a task they should want to excel at if they wish to have any influence on the Council. That's Part 4 in the clear for you.
For Part 5, it's a matter of timing. Harrigan's invasion of their island is all the more inspired by his need to silence his former officers - and those meddlesome PCs - once and for all. He could have found out by the Eel or Norgorberish divination. Say they raise Grok/Longfarthing early on. So they blow the whistle on Harrigan before the party find his secret lair. In that case the lair that Harrigan held while Grok and Peppery were tortured is the one that he just cleared out of, and the one in the book is the *other* bolthole that Harrigan had been bolstering during Grok's and Peppery's incarceration, of which they know nothing but about which the party can still learn of with the clues as written.
It would still be on the party to accomplish most of this leg work as Bonefist is clearly no longer willing to consider that being Hurricane King means he should lift a finger in any sort of effort. Harrigan, the reputed "Scourge of Cheliax", is not singly a threat to the King and it is inconceivable that Harrigan would so blatantly turn against the reputation he has built with zeal. And even if he did go so starkly against his character, Bonefist cannot conceive of a way for the Chellish fleet to come upon them unawares. Even Grok and Longfarthing are not aware of the lengths Druvalia has gone through to ensure her invasion.
Ultimately, being right about Harrigan in the first place can play out as one of the winning arguments in convincing other Free Captains to ally with the PCs in Part 6. So you're all good to go there, with only minimal tweaking and you can still use all the encounters.
Up to you whether the former Wormwood officers, once rescued and healed, still have the heart to participate in person or just give info and hide from a distance. By that point, the party will have eclipsed them in infamy and levels.
Make sense? Good on you for allowing your players some breathing room. Hope you continue to enjoy the rest of the AP.
Sorry I just skipped to the end to post this I just read a few posts the first 5 or so. The man or woman is his or her own GM he/she is asking a question and help. They are not asking to hear how wrong they were as a GM to give the party access to this or that. They are not asking for what you would have done before all that. They are in the situation they are in and are asking for ADVICE ON THAT SITUATION not criticism about getting into that situation. There is no right or wrong to GM.
*AHEM
Two things that I would do in this situation.
1. Send an assassin after Peppery that conveniently kills her before she spills too much.
or
2. Harrigan did some voodoo hoodoo an because of this even though Peppery's wounds may heal her tongue will never grow back.*EDIT short of direct divine or almost divine intervention or high level spell.(I.E. a God, another wish, miracle, wish, etc., etc.)
****edit edit Never mind she wold still be able to write best kill her lol