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One of my players is playing a first level undead lord, which means the Undead Subdomain. Cleric of Urgothoa, and so channels negative energy.
Undead Subdomain includes:
Death’s Kiss (Su): You can cause a creature to take on some of the traits of the undead with a melee touch attack. Touched creatures are treated as undead for the purposes of effects that heal or cause damage based on positive and negative energy. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 your cleric level (minimum 1). It does not apply to the Turn Undead or Command Undead feats. You can use this ability a number of times per day equal to 3 + your Wisdom modifier.
So basically, since this character is the only cleric in the party, once she ran out of CLW's during the first session, she wanted to use this power to give a dying comrade undead traits, and then heal said comrade with a channel. Player asked if "one round" duration meant that the spell would effectively fizzle out before cleric can actually channel to heal undead.
My snap ruling was that the cleric could cast and then "hold the charge", and basically I wouldn't tax her a whole standard action to discharge into a helpless and immobile comrade. Then I went back and read over the combat rules and discovered that discharging a held touch spell into an ally is a standard action. Meaning that, technically, I let said character take three standard actions in two turns.
Having discovered this, the Death's Kiss seems like a fairly useless power at levels 1 and 2 if it's not still active in the following round. It doesn't let the cleric use the power as described above and it doesn't let her use her Command Undead power on enemies. Unless there are, like, two clerics in the party.
The next solution that occurred to me is that if the spell had a casting time of one round, like a Summon Monster. It would then be an easy matter, since the spell would take effect just before her turn and then she could channel as a standard. So why couldn't we say that a caster can CHOOSE to make the casting time longer? Turning Death's Kiss into a full-round action would alleviate this problem.
Then I realized that whoa, that means that I have to offer this to all casters, for all spells. This lets casters cast two spells every other round, if they so wish. That amounts to giving away Quickened Spell for free, at first level, with no spell level tax.
So how should I rule this? Does a "one-round" duration extend into the following round? Does it end before the caster's standard action or after? I want to make this (using Death's Kiss to heal allies via Negative Channeling) work, since the other cleric I booked was a no-show. How can I make it work and follow the rules?
Does a "one-round" duration extend into the following round?
The Combat Round: "When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on."
I want to make this (using Death's Kiss to heal allies via Negative Channeling) work, since the other cleric I booked was a no-show. How can I make it work and follow the rules?
At level 4, the cleric can kiss someone, and it will last 2 rounds, allowing her to channel on her next turn.
Alternately, the Quick Channel feat would let you kiss (standard action) then channel (move action).
round by round durations tick down and end at the start of the turn of their source, before any actions. So if your cleric uses a 1 round duration effect, it persists until the start of their next turn.
Is there a feat that would allow a cleric to use a domain power as a swift or move action, or extend its duration?
Alternatively, is there a feat that allows clerics with one kind of energy to use the other kind to channel? I couldn't find anything in the Channel feats.
Is there a feat that would allow a cleric to use a domain power as a swift or move action, or extend its duration?
Not that I know of.
A common house rule is for those types of domain powers to be usable on yourself as a swift action, similar to lay on hands.
Alternatively, is there a feat that allows clerics with one kind of energy to use the other kind to channel?
Versatile Channeler. However, you must be a neutral cleric of a neutral deity. If you or your deity are good or evil, it doesn't apply.
Is there a feat that would allow a cleric to use a domain power as a swift or move action, or extend its duration?
Alternatively, is there a feat that allows clerics with one kind of energy to use the other kind to channel? I couldn't find anything in the Channel feats.
There is some sort of ability that allows a cleric that has the ability to channel either positive or negative, to channel the alternate as well; I'm looking for it now. It has some limitations - either costs double the channels or is one die lower than their 'chosen' channel.
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Beaten to it by Grick.
Is there a feat that would allow a cleric to use a domain power as a swift or move action, or extend its duration?Not that I know of.
A common house rule is for those types of domain powers to be usable on yourself as a swift action, similar to lay on hands.
Alternatively, is there a feat that allows clerics with one kind of energy to use the other kind to channel?Versatile Channeler. However, you must be a neutral cleric of a neutral deity. If you or your deity are good or evil, it doesn't apply.
Interesting. I'll bring it to the player, maybe get him to switch from Urgothoa to Shyka, and handwave the Undead domain. After all, Shyka only has four, and Urgothoa has six.
Is there a feat that offers Versatile Heal/Harm spontaneous casting?
Is there a feat that offers Versatile Heal/Harm spontaneous casting?
Not that I know of. Nothing prevents you from preparing the other type of wounds spell, though. Inflict/Cure are not aligned spells.
Would this work?
No
Cleric Ini=18
Corpse Ini=10
Bystander Ini =8
A readied action moves Clerics initiative from 18 to 8. He uses Deaths Kiss at Ini8 and it expires in the next round at 8 just before Cleric casts ILW.
Since you are the DM and you can bend the rules and this is a level 1 party, and the Domain Ability is 3+ Wisdom modifier (so atleast 4 times or more per day),
why not make a DM Fiat rule that if the Cleric spends a Full Round Action and expends 2 uses (or more on one person only) she can Burst Negative healing after the Full Round Action so the party member can be healed?
Was it during combat or out of combat>? Is this something you think the PC will abuse?
Being Level 1 has its disadvantages, and knowing is half the battle, so the player now understands the limitations of her character... especially at low level. Thid is also why your first level feat selection is so important. (Certain Feats can help with this situation, such as the ones already stated by others).
If she is the only healer in the party, allowing some kind of trade or balance to keep the party alive isn't going to bring the whole game to a halt.
Bend the Rules just a little bit, but be firm to the players that you are only doing this because of low levels or only until level 2,ect.
My example would be:
Round 1:Cleric moves to Corpse and begs her God to allow her crappy first level power last long enough for her to burst negative healing next round.
Round 2:DM/God listens... and suggests she contemplate her character (sheet) for a full round by expending multiple uses on one single player. (Trade off)
Round 3:Cleric uses Negative channel and heals that one person...
I think your initial judgement was best for common sense sake.
if use of this power it primarily designed to set up interactions with other spell effects, that one round duration is "next round" or "from the end of this initiative to the end of this initiative next round"
Cleric moves next to Corpse and casts Death's Kiss. He holds the charge.
Holding the charge is a rule for touch spells. Death's Kiss is not a spell, nor is it spell-like.
Since you're house-ruling anyway, it doesn't really matter which way you go with it, just pick something that's fair for the other players and doesn't cause problems down the road.
Or just drop a wand of cure light wounds into the next treasure stash they find.
Rules as written it doesn't work, but none of the things you're suggesting are overpowered. I'd allow any of them.
Since you are the DM and you can bend the rules and this is a level 1 party, and the Domain Ability is 3+ Wisdom modifier (so atleast 4 times or more per day),
why not make a DM Fiat rule that if the Cleric spends a Full Round Action and expends 2 uses (or more on one person only) she can Burst Negative healing after the Full Round Action so the party member can be healed?
Was it during combat or out of combat>? Is this something you think the PC will abuse?
Being Level 1 has its disadvantages, and knowing is half the battle, so the player now understands the limitations of her character... especially at low level. Thid is also why your first level feat selection is so important. (Certain Feats can help with this situation, such as the ones already stated by others).
If she is the only healer in the party, allowing some kind of trade or balance to keep the party alive isn't going to bring the whole game to a halt.
Bend the Rules just a little bit, but be firm to the players that you are only doing this because of low levels or only until level 2,ect.
My example would be:
Round 1:Cleric moves to Corpse and begs her God to allow her crappy first level power last long enough for her to burst negative healing next round.
Round 2:DM/God listens... and suggests she contemplate her character (sheet) for a full round by expending multiple uses on one single player. (Trade off)
Round 3:Cleric uses Negative channel and heals that one person...
So, Cleric just got Swift Channel for free?
I'm going to go with my first instinct, but announce that it's a houserule that only applies to this ability, and the rules are being bent for the purpose of healing PC's (and NPC's)
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Slight thread necro. Sorry that I did not see this thread earlier.
I will be playing a similar negative energy healer (Undead lord) in the Darkmoon Vale modules.
My GM agreed to let me use Death's Kiss as a swift action (my first request). I just love the idea of my healer kissing a wounded child "to make it go away" and healing him with a spontaneous Inflict spell.
However, he did not agree to let me use it on several allies on the same round (either by making it a free action or by using the rules for touching several allies with a single standard action). (my second requests a few days later).
But I think that by then I will get the Versatile channeling feat and heal them with positive energy channels.
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Since Death's kiss is a supernatural ability and not a spell-like or spell, could you do the following:
round 1: Cast an inflict spell and hold the charge.
round 2: use Death's kiss and hit them with the held inflict spell as part of the touch for death's kiss?
I guess then it would be up to the GM to decide which goes off first, the touch for the SU or the touch for the held spell.
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Simple fact, the rules don't allow this.
Side note: this is the price for being an evil bastard. The player wanted to be an evil bastard, so why is the player so worried about healing the whimpering sycophants who were foolish enough to count on him to waste his God's precious time and energy being their nursemaid? If he wanted to be a healer, worried bout whether his companions were safely recovering from every blister and hangnail, he should have been a goody-twoshoes healer instead of an evil bastard.
Me, I'd let the players work it out. I think if I were in a group of adventurers and we were not evil but our only healer was a worthless evil negative-channeling Urgathoa undead cleric, I'd be kicking his butt to the curb and finding a real healer before I ever went on our first adventure. If we are all evil, then I might work with this worthless evil negative-channeling Urgathoa undead cleric, but I'd bring my own healing and I'd really watch my back. A lot.
In any case, it seems like the Players want to have their evil fun and not pay the price. I say screw them. This is a role-playing game. Let them work out their own problems. Either the group decides to get rid of that worthless cleric (not the player, of course, I'm talking about the character) or they keep him and accept the consequences.
If that's not how you want it to go, then it's your game, make whatever houserule you want. If I were you and if I decided to make the houserule, I would modify Death's Kiss so that it worked for a number of rounds equal to 1 + 1/2 of the cleric's level, minimum of 2 rounds.
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There actually is a way (or two) to heal someone with Death's Kiss prior to level 4. Btw, Versatile Channel requires you and your deity to both be Neutral alignment which cuts out a number of Evil deities that one may serve (can serve evil deities without being Evil, 1 step alignment difference such as CN or etc). Quick Channel is out of the question for the OP as they wanted to know if it was possible before 4th level where Death's Kiss would last 2 rounds, so Quick Channel doesn't really solve the low level problem.
Cost: 200gp, Weight: 2 lbs.
Before it is used, this elegant drinking vessel must be filled with water, wine, or another ceremonial liquid appropriate to the faith. Activating the chalice charges the liquid with channeled energy; any member of the faith who drinks the entire contents of the chalice (as if drinking a potion) recovers hit points or takes damage as if the cleric had used her channel energy on him (including all feats and abilities that affect the DC and damage). The liquid in the chalice remains charged until consumed, spilled, or 24 hours pass; some chalices include a cover to prevent spillage.
Note: Channel negative energy into the drink and it's good for 24hours. Use Death's Kiss on yourself or others and let them drink away. Running out of water? Looks like the "Create Water" orison just got better. Don't leave home without it. ;) If you're intending to heal someone else and let them drink it, make sure you've converted them to be a member of your faith first!
This is a GREAT single target healing option combined with Death's Kiss for those that are lacking healing due to selecting Negative Channeling, or you can cast a suggestion (or similar) spell to compel a target to drink the Chalice and receive damage. Think of this as a useful (but sometimes less effective) way to use Negative Channeling when you don't have Selective Channel or high enough Charisma just yet.
Cost: 100gp, Weight:2 lbs.
This holy symbol has a small nail or spike somewhere along its length, allowing it to be hammered it into a wall, tree, floor, or any hard surface. Once fixed in place and activated, it stores channeled energy until it is touched by a creature of at least Small size or 24 hours pass. If touched, the focus releases the stored power as if you used channel energy, though it only heals or deals half the normal damage (including all feats and abilities that affect the DC and damage). Good clerics use these items to provide healing in large battles where a cleric may not be nearby; evil clerics often use them as traps.
Note: Depending on how the GM rules touching an unattended object, you could use Death's Kiss on yourself and touch this ward in the same turn and be able to heal yourself (at 1/2 strength). Just another option and I'm sure people can get creative with this one just like the chalice.
So, I apologize for resurrecting this thread. But I'm sure multiple people will search and find this thread and find this bit of information to be extremely useful either in their home game or in PFS. Enjoy!
EDIT: Also, DM_Blake is wrong. Not all Evil alignment deities are against healing. Urgathoa would gladly allow someone to be healed if it keeps them out of Pharasma's grasp and Urgathoa also wants her followers to enjoy life (and undeath) to its fullest. I'm sure there's a few other deities out there that feel the same.
EDIT #2: I just realized that drinking a potion is normally a Move action. Evil Clerics are free to heal themselves also within the 1 round with Negative Energy while using Answer#1. Updated Answer#1 to reflect this change as I thought drinking was a standard action.
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EDIT: Also, DM_Blake is wrong. Not all Evil alignment deities are against healing. Urgathoa would gladly allow someone to be healed if it keeps them out of Pharasma's grasp and Urgathoa also wants her followers to enjoy life (and undeath) to its fullest. I'm sure there's a few other deities out there that feel the same.
Since it's already resurrected (or reanimated, more likely), and my name was invoked, I think I'll reply.
I never said evil gods are against healing. What I did was put RP-words into the head of an evil cleric. I hoped everyone would recognize that this was an RP-oriented reply.
Also, this RP reflected that evil clerics ability to spontaneously convert spells and to channel energy does not normally enable healing, which in turn reflects a general evil god attitude that healing is not their primary concern. That in no way implies that they disallow it; it's just low priority for the gods and ergo, for their clerics too.
The OP already had mentioned that the evil cleric was using Cure Light Wounds. Kysune showed a couple tricks to provide some healing. None of that makes my RP wrong - I suspect that most evil negative-channeling Urgathoa undead clerics would be likely to disdain finding themselves in the role of party healer, but I never said that they must have this attitude.
Nor was I wrong about the basic game mechanic the OP was asking about. Thank you for pointing out that there are some interesting viable alternatives that use magic items to workaround the basic game mechanic. That's useful information.