Everything I've read on the internet has pretty much said Mystic Theurge is an underpowered class that struggles at lower levels. Recently I rolled a character with really interesting stats (18 Intelligence, 18 Wisdom, and 18 Dexterity, but low stats for everything else). The group will have a witch and possibly a bard, but the rest of the group are melee. I'd really like to fill in a lot of the utility spellcasting since we have no divine caster or full arcane caster-- plus I'd really like to take advantage of playing a unique character that most stat rolls wouldn't be able to do well.
So how can I make this work well? The DM has said I can take Practiced Spellcaster feat to makeup for spellcaster level, but I'm still going to only have level 2 spells up until after I'm into Mystic Theurge.
So here are my main questions:
Should I go Cleric-Wizard or Druid-Wizard? Which has a better spell list, and which would have decent features when I only have 3 levels in the class?
Also, what archtypes or alternate class features would help this sort of character? I have 11 charisma, so cleric channeling wouldn't do much for me. What about wizard spell schools, or cleric domains?
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I would go Druid/Witch, or Druid/Wizard, for the spell lists, but given that you wont get wild shape or several of the really powerful class features, and have to give up metal armor, I'd say cleric wizard for the abiliity to chanel energy and turn/comand undead
why are those the stats you put the 18's in if you are able to shift them, puting one into cha so you can play sorscerer or oracle would give you the ability to gear them to different things, like devote your spontanious casting to blasting and your prepared casting to utility,
druid casting is good for AOE and fighting aberations, which few campaigns focus on, cleric casting focuses on healing and fighting undead and outsiders of oposite alignment
oh and for your school if you go wizard, I'd sugest wind elemental school specialty
The group rolled for stats last week with the DM, and I'm locked into these rolls with their specific stat. I can't really trade them around-- and as much as the low Constitution hurts, I can't really complain with how high I rolled.
Strength- 14
Dexterity- 18
Constitution- 10
Intelligence- 18
Wisdom- 18
Charisma- 11
For race, I think I'm going to go with Samsaran, because it fits the scholarly thing I have going, and gives a bonus to Int and Wis, bringing both caster stats to 20.
Basically, the DM wanted to try a dice pool for rolling for stats, but what you roll is what you get, rolling for each stat individually. Normally I wouldn't have considered a Mystic Theurge, but with these rolls and the fact that the group doesn't have much casting ability besides one player playing a Witch, it kind of begs me to try it.
We had to announce "I'm rolling for Strength now. Here goes!" pretty much.
If it wasnt for the locked stats I'd say go for the 3rd party class the Magister and avoid the whole issue of the MT. You get alot of what you would from MT but you get it without multiclassing. But they are wisdom and charisma based, not int based.
Have you thought at all at playing an inquisitor? You could make a heck of a good archer inquisitor with those stats. You would still have a fair amount of the utility spells, and make good use of that stat line.
I'm really not all that familiar with what Inquisitors are good at. Are they more of a damage oriented divine class, with some spellcasting?
My experience with mystic theurge was with a player in 3.5 who did struggle with some fairly weak spells while waiting to get to the mystic theurge multiclass. Considering you typically need at least 6 levels of classes (3 in one, 3 in the other) to qualify for the prestige class, a reasonably house rule might be requiring the ability to cast 1st level spells in both (instead of 2nd) and requiring the character to have 6 levels between the 2 spellcasting classes. They'll probably choose to be a combination of 5th and 1st, I suppose, but that may help them feel they're keeping up with their single-class compatriots.
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Where Mystic Theurges can work best is when you focus on buffing. The nice bit with not trying to be the big damage dealer/controller is that you aren't as concerned about save DCs or loss of caster levels. Most of the most commonly used buffs also come by spell level four.
You already have a witch and (maybe) a bard, so I suggest the classic cleric/wizard combination. Spells like shield of faith, heroism, haste, magic vestment, magic weapon are going to be your bread and butter. Memorize "protection" spells like remove fear, remove paralysis, etc. from the cleric list. Go for utility spells from the wizard list.
MT just really isnt worth it. And your stats are pretty good for plenty of classes. YOu Con can be raised to 12 by going human or Half-elf/orc.
With High Dex your going to have decent AC. And you have Int and Wis at 18. Whats the issue? I would suggest going one and forgetting the other. Wizard or Cleric. Witch would be good. Druid would be decent.
You have the stats to be a decent Magus or a great Summoner... Though if you have plenty of melee your pet might overshadow them.
I am personally intrigued by the idea of of the Arcane part coming from a Crossblooded Kitsune Sorcerer with the Fey and Infernal Bloodlines - +3 to all Enchantment spells at level 1 before feats. That boost might make Enchantment spells effective enough through a Theruge's career, and the additional Enchantment spells on the Divine list will help the trick be usable quite often, but I haven't exactly play tested it.
I'm really not all that familiar with what Inquisitors are good at. Are they more of a damage oriented divine class, with some spellcasting?
They are kind of like a rogue, cleric, fighter mix. They are capable warriors (especially ranged) but they have solid skills and 6 spell levels of casting (similar to a bards) with a divine spell list. They can do alot of damage, but their judgements can also offer buffs and debuffs instead. And they have a great skill both in terms of social skills, and tracking/investigation which would make use of your excellent intelligence.
or take the feet precocious aprentance, for a 2nd lvl arcane spell at first lvl, and go 3 lvls of cleric or druid and then go thruge
giving you wizard1/cleric3/thurgeX
where can i find this feat? pfsrd isnt showing anything.
closest i can find is:
Precocious Spellcaster (trait)
"Before you even began your training as a spellcaster, you spent a great deal of time studying cantrips and simple spells on your own. Because of this, you developed some innate magical abilities without any outside guidance.
Benefit: Select one cantrip and one 1st-level spell; when you cast these spells, they function at one caster level higher than your actual caster level."
all the "function at one caster level higher" means is a +1 to save DCs for it, not actually being a 2nd-level spell (im reminded of the heightened spell metamagic feat). it's also fan content, so not PFS usable.
or take the feet precocious aprentance, for a 2nd lvl arcane spell at first lvl, and go 3 lvls of cleric or druid and then go thruge
giving you wizard1/cleric3/thurgeX
Thats a really good idea. I like it. One of the big things I'm worried about is wasting levels and having my lower levels feel useless-- so getting into Mystic Theurge earlier is great.
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Precocious Apprentice
[General]
Your master has shown you the basics of a spell beyond the normal limits of your experience and training.
Prerequisite
arcane caster level 1st, Spellcasting ability (Int or Cha) 15,
Benefit
Choose one 2nd-level spell from a school of magic you have access to. You gain an extra 2nd-level spell slot that must be used initially to cast only the chosen spell. Until your level is high enough to allow you to cast 2nd-level spells, you must succeed on a DC 8 caster level check to successfully cast this spell; if you fail, the spell is miscast to no effect. Your caster level with the chosen spell is your normal caster level, even if this level is insufficient to cast the spell under normal circumstances. When you become able to cast 2nd-level spells, you lose the benefit described above but retain the extra 2nd-level spell slot, which you can use to prepare or spontaneously cast a spell of 2nd level or lower as you normally would. Finally, you gain a +2 bonus on all Spellcraft checks.
Special
You can take this feat only as a 1st-level character.
EDIT: ah, complete arcane from 3.5
or take the feet precocious aprentance, for a 2nd lvl arcane spell at first lvl, and go 3 lvls of cleric or druid and then go thruge
giving you wizard1/cleric3/thurgeX
If I did this, is there any particular archtype or alternate class feature you might recommend for the one level of Wizard?
What about archtypes for Cleric for 3 levels, when I have low Charisma?
Those look like perfect stats for a dervish dance magus.Thats a really good idea. I like it. One of the big things I'm worried about is wasting levels and having my lower levels feel useless-- so getting into Mystic Theurge earlier is great.or take the feet precocious aprentance, for a 2nd lvl arcane spell at first lvl, and go 3 lvls of cleric or druid and then go thruge
giving you wizard1/cleric3/thurgeX
If I went with a Magus, would a Witch and a Bard make up for the fact that there is no divine caster?
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Ive played a MT b4 in both 3.5 and PF. Its a great PrC if done right. The MT is amazing because of its ability to be able to cast both arcane and divine spells making them the ultimate healer / buffer and nothing else. Classes to take have to be Cleric and Sorcerer because of the vast amount of spell slots they have in comparison to the other casters. With ur stats sadly u wont be able to do it as well because of ur low cha which u needed for cleric. Though it is still very doable if u go with the Sage wildbood for the Arcane Bloodline for sorcerer. Spells to focus on are buff spells that the cleric does not have access to and summon monster spells. Ur cleric spells to keep at hand at all times will be nothing but the buff spells, condition removal spells, and resurrections. MT will primarily be used to cannibalize ur Sorcerer spells to cast more healing spells. Also the domain u really need for cleric is the healing domain for its level 6 ability. Also u will want to pick up the 2nd level sorcerer spell Spectral Hand ASAP since it will allow u to cast 4th level and lower touch spells from a distance aka cure and buff spells.
Class levels should look like Cleric 6/ Sorcerer 4/ MT 10 giving u the ability to cast 8th level divine and 7th level arcane spells.
If I went with a Magus, would a Witch and a Bard make up for the fact that there is no divine caster?Those look like perfect stats for a dervish dance magus.Thats a really good idea. I like it. One of the big things I'm worried about is wasting levels and having my lower levels feel useless-- so getting into Mystic Theurge earlier is great.or take the feet precocious aprentance, for a 2nd lvl arcane spell at first lvl, and go 3 lvls of cleric or druid and then go thruge
giving you wizard1/cleric3/thurgeX
If the witch takes the healing patron yes, if not, not so much. The issue wouldnt be a matter of hit point recovery, which presumably you could deal with, its a matter of condition removal, but especially the restoration line of spells, which the witch will only get with the healing patron and thebard doesnt get.
Though its not a feat, in the inner sea magic guide you can learn threw a spellcasting guild an ability call Esoteric Training.. It gives an actual +3cl to 1 class and a +1cl to another class.. Note these are actual caster levels, so they will grant u new spell levels known etc etc.. Its a bit op, but if ur dm will go for it by all means.. It costs alot of gold to obtain and a fame score of 35, so a minimum of 7th level.. I would go wizard(foresight)/cleric(travel and somthing else)..
It’s funny, when the MT was first announced, there were pages and pages on the WotC boards about how super-powerful they were and how super munchkin. Then, someone actually, you, know, played one…..
I would go for a ranged Inquisitor , or a Wizard with one level of Cleric or straight cleric, going for Spellcaster, not tanking.
Your DM would have to be insane or super generous to allow that feat, just sayin...
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How to make a Mystic Theurge:
Play a gnome. Take 8 levels of ranger. Add 4 levels of bard. At 20th level, you'll be casting as a 16th level ranger and 12th level bard!
Mystic Theurge is really not worth it. None of the abilities you get are really that good, until the capstone. I'd recommend instead doing a Samsaran Wizard and using Mystic Past Life to pull some choice cleric-y spells off the Witch list
If you have any way to negotiate with your DM on stats and can switch an 18 into Charisma, the oracle archetype Ancient Lorekeeper from the ARG is also a nice way to combine arcane and divine casting.
Mystic Theurge doesn't just stink at low levels, it stinks at all levels. Getting your capstone changes everything but until 15th level you're just going to be really unhappy with your choice.
I'm running one in a CoCT campaign. Not everything I had hoped for. You still cast only once a round with twice as many choices. Without another healer, I do a lot of cleanup instead of control.
Well with a MT you run into problems with any spell that is somehow level dependent for anything other than duration. With blasting and debuff/save-or-die, it's the DC. With summoning, it's the fact that the creatures you have available aren't competitive.
Usually MT sticks with buffing and battlefield control, as those are the spells that are less affected by the MT's trade-offs.
If you invested feats and traits, you could get your arcane caster level up to be a decent blaster. The thing is- the feats and traits you're using to break even are being used by dedicated blasters to be truly vicious. As long as you're willing to be 'okay' at it, then it's not a problem.
I personally am willing to be 'okay' at it. ;)
I also love the concept of the Mystic Theurge. View the thread below for links to some theories about early entry in the class which your DM may find compelling.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pe7x&page=2?Mystic-Theurge#58
In my view, Witch is essentially the new (and improved) MT. With the right build (Hedge Witch with Healing Patron and heal hex) you will beat the MT with respect to healing/status removal and on top of that you can still be a potent debuffer/controller as well, which the MT will really struggle at. The only downside is fewer lower-level spell slots, but who cares about that.
Optimization-wise then, just be a witch and call yourself a MT. Re-skin the witch fluff as you see fit.
You can make it work but you will be behind the power curve for a long time. There is feat/ability in the Inner Sea Guide book that raises your actual class level, but it is supposed to be attached to RP.
If you want to play a successful Mystic Theurge, play a Witch instead.
I'm serious, Witch is basically Mystic Theurge, the Base Class. It has healing, it has damage, it has control, and it has hexes to back up it's smaller spellcasting. It's basically the best option.
My advice would be to buy the 3 levels in one class first and then buy the others so:
1-Cleric
2-Cleric
3-Cleric
4-Wizard
5-Wizard
6-Wizard
7+ MT
at least that way you get 3 levels of being exactly the same as everyone else and providing healing as a full cleric during the most dangerous levels for TPK, then for three levels you build sideways and will be a little unhappy but then at 7th you start getting better again.
The quickest way to ruin all your fun is to go one for one and feel yourself falling behind the rest of the party right at 2nd level
I'm really not all that familiar with what Inquisitors are good at. Are they more of a damage oriented divine class, with some spellcasting?
They specialize in being BAMF's and also getting a sweet-ass hat as a class ability
Ive played a MT b4 in both 3.5 and PF. Its a great PrC if done right. The MT is amazing because of its ability to be able to cast both arcane and divine spells making them the ultimate healer / buffer and nothing else. Classes to take have to be Cleric and Sorcerer because of the vast amount of spell slots they have in comparison to the other casters.
Secretly, the best MT (in 3.5) was Wizard/Druid. Thank you, Arcane Hierophant! Double 9's with no effort/cheese. (Wizard 3/Druid 3/MT 2/Arcane Heirophant 10/MT 2)
If I did this, is there any particular archtype or alternate class feature you might recommend for the one level of Wizard?
What about archtypes for Cleric for 3 levels, when I have low Charisma?
If you have access to 3.5 material then take the Domain Wizard variant. Otherwise, Necromancy school for the Command Undead/Turn Undead or Arcane Crafter for a free Item Creation/Metamagic feat. You're only taking three levels of Wizard (probably) anyway, so most schools aren't really relevant for you because you won't get enough class levels to get them or use them effectively. The only Cleric archetype I'd consider would be Separatist so you could cherry pick a Domain. I'd probably take a race with an affinity and take the appropriate Domain for the +1 CL to spells.
As for strength of an MT, they are weak but you can get pretty far with just buff and low level utility spells and you probably won't feel overshadowed if the only other full caster is a Witch.
If you want to try the MT I think taking a look at the dwarf cleric archetype might be worth some. That way at least some of your spells work at a decent level prom the beginning (All spells targeting weapons and/or armor). Plus, as someone else already sait the dwarf stats would be good for you, because your con is very low and you will not use your Cha very much, anyways.