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There have been a couple of contentious threads on the subject of "making sense" when either multi-classing to a new class, or else even just gaining new abilities within a class (e.g. new spell levels).
There is definitely an argument to be made that true immersion would lead the gaming group to deal with a rogue learning how to become a wizard, or for a fighter to learn a difficult new feat, however, there is also an argument that if each level essentially becomes a side-quest to complete, that can very seriously interrupt an ongoing campaign story itself.
Most gamers, I believe, tend to fall somewhere in between the extremes of "explain everything" and "explain nothing."
What I'd like to do on this thread is not to revisit the debate of whether it is "badwrongfun" to play one way or the other, but to have people present reasonable in-game approaches to the issue of multi-classing or just leveling up.
Some situations are obviously easier than others. Spontaneous casters can be assumed to just spontaneously add to their repertoire. But wizards leveling up in a dungeon, or rogues taking a level of druid are more problematic.
I think the first and most reasonable approach is for players to try to plan their level advancement in advance and to drop a few role-play attempts to explain it during game. For example, a rogue could spend downtime with UMD to read and attempt to understand scrolls the party has found if the rogue intends to multi-class into wizard.
This might give some players a way to pre-empt any in game problems if they expect to multi-class without notifying their GM in their own games.
So, any thoughts or suggestions would be appreciated.
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I the way I play is mostly leaning to explain nothing,
I usually play spontanious casters, but even when I dont there is no way that I would play out what my character is doing in real time, so I say, while they break camp my alchamist is going over his notes trying to expearament, and I back this up by having him take organs from various creatures like dragons scales and organs and pheonix ash and puting them in the potions.
For the harder classes like Druid you can foreshadow the change through roleplay, you just might have to start earlier to compensate for "difficulty" of the class
For instance if the Rogue knows he wants Druid at level 4, starting at level 1 or even in his backstory the player could experience visions of wolves or whatever his companion will be. He could have random experiences where he suddenly understands what dogs are saying while walking through town only to lose grasp of it a minute later.
Whereupon the character might start looking into how to understand animals and slowly builds up into that level 4 change.
Ataraxias, I like that approach too, and in general I like the approach of role playing the change in advance just for flavor purposes.
I do see druid as one of the most difficult multi-class options to really explain since becoming a first level druid assumes that the character has studied and learned with existing druids enough to have mastered another language unique to their class.
Of course learning a new language is always possible as you level up anyway, but I've rarely seen a player role play that, they just say "hey, I get a new language, I think I'm going to take terran.
Well, for learning a NEW skill or profession sure. You could argue that boosting an existing skill is no big deal.
For the groups I have been a part of its a mix of both.
Some of it is hand waving it away. Expecially if its not an extream difference(Ranger takes a fighter level). Sometimes we explain it as the character had been practicing in his off time at night. Taking a Sorceror level might be your in born talent finally blooming, ect.
If its an extream change thats hard to explain(Taking a Wizard level or a Paladin level) then there might be some background PRing. I dont have normal Paladin's in my game for instance. I use a variant of the Prestige Paladin found in the 3.5 UA book. Before my players take thier first level of Prestige Paladin they have to aproach thier church and go through whatever rights they require to become a Paladin of that Church... This has caused a player to sit on his level essentially through a dungeon or two. He got the BAB, the HD increase, and the Skill points... but got none of his Paladin abilities till he got back to town and went to see his Order.
But those are rare, and usually discussed with the player so we are on the same page. Id say I dont have a hard fast rule. Its dependent on the campaign, classes involved, and area the party is in.
Another thought, if the player didn't plan it out ahead there's also GM fiat.
You follow your friends through the portal , but you end up in a strange otherworldly grove. A strange figure seemingly made of roots approaches you explaining that time does not pass here and the key to rejoining your friends is within you. Cue training montage. Character speaks the secret druidic words to leave the grove.
I had fun with a sorcerer once -- every new spell, I tied into some aspect of the last adventure (either a location, item, or monster).
"How is it you can suddenly throw fireballs?"
"Remember when we camped on the slopes of that volcano? I spent the night tapping into its power and creating a mystical link to the crater. Now when I point my finger I can draw on that linkage and transmit some of the fury of the volcano."
I wouldn't recommend everyone doing that with all their class features; it would be a pain in the ass and 99% probably not worth the effort. But it was a lot of fun as an experiment.
there was a thread about a month ago, where a gal wanted to know what to do with her Cavalier with a high charisma in a Kingmaker campaign.
I suggested going battle herald, which meant she would have to 'spontaneously combust' at least one level of bard.
Her argument was how would she ever become a bard out in the middle of the stolen lands?
Mine was bard is a self taught wanderer and on the way to becoming a battle herald (cheering on your companions, giving orders and encouragement from horse back etc) the evolution was normal/natural for the direction she wanted to go with her character.
I think anything can be RP'd out but the best way to do it is before hand. If you know you are headed for a PrC or specific multi class combo, from level one you are essentially a dragon disciple already who hasnt grown into her powers.
The problem comes when you have a 130 year old elf who studied to become a wizard (and a table in the rules set that shows you how much longer it takes to become a wizard vs, a sorceror or a bard) and then have your rogue suddenly just 'pick up' a level of wizard.... no apprenticeship nothing, just poof.
In older versions of the game, the leveling process also took years of game time, but some of the newer APs literally level characters through an entire adventuring career in a matter of months of their own lives.
That leaves a lot of 'brokeness' out their to complain about. Personally, Im not a fan of the time line of many APs. The intent to keep a sense of urgency about the plot, to maintain high energy, but in the process breaks the believability of what's happening.
I have an issue with "builds" that want to dip, or exploit certain levels of certain classes. Ie there is no reason i want to be a monk, except I want the "free feats" rather than spending level based feats. I'm going to wear light armor and never intend on flurrying, im just after free feats and evasion.
That's where I would say ahhh, no.
I recall quite clearly when I studied kung fu. The negotiation process I went through with my Sifu, who knew I was already trained in Karate and Jiujitsu, and also knew I was only after a few techniques of the form, that I wanted to learn, and could give a care about the forms, katas and stances..... The answer was....ahhhh no.
I had to learn from square one, like I had never studied a martial art, I had to read the history and study the philosophy and even learn a great deal of the Chinese language; YAR!
It took me a year before I got into Bil Gee and Sticking hands Chi Sau, which was what I was there to learn to begin with,
The "free feats" and evasion came at the cost of taking in the whole concept. They couldnt BE cherry picked. Now? I dont have kung fu in my karate... I have a little bit of Karate left in my Kung fu. My whole fighting form changed, not just added bits and pieces of something new.
No one picks up a level of wizard just to get scribe scroll.
A master or teacher is going to sense what you are after, and teach your at a slower pace or not at all.
So if a player wants two feats and evasion, as a DM I CAN choose to make him work for it, and not just let him "splash" monk into his fighter/ranger.
I could also rule that the Cavalier has been doing enough heraldric acts that she picks up her level of bard.
Oh but the player is in control of their character? I beg to differ. Who says when the character advances? That's the DM.
You dont get a single EXP without the DM, you don't advance another level without the DM saying so.
I have played many a campaign, and run a few where some players were several levels ahead of their buddies. I regularly recall the days of a party with a 6th level thief, a 5th level fighter, a 4th level magic-user and a 2/3 fighter/thief.
And you can still do that now.
John's Plan/route for his character is better thought out, planned and fluid, he character could advance at a faster rate.
Tim's exploit of mechanics has zero thought put into it, nada for explanation, and he's following someone else's posted 'build' like a cook book he might progress at a slower rate than"
Jill plays a vanilla wizard who is just plodding along at the standard progression.
John could be on fast, Jill on Medium and Tim on slow.
IT totally depends on what you want to encourage int he campaign.
You're not telling Tim no, you can't use your jerky exploit build. But you are telling him, and showing him that it will take longer and more effort to advance in this path, since literally all of it will have to be self taught with no masters or inspiration and might even require an alignment change or two, depending on how/what/when/why classes he's trying to build through.
At lower levels, this could be several levels off, at higher it's generally only 1 level behind. maybe 2 behind the "leader"
John is being rewarded for his extra effort in putting together his character background and helping all the other players make sense of his characters life and goals. John has added to the campaign and helped emersion.
Jill is a newer player or might not be that interested in character background, she and most of the players progress at the same rate.
Tim is actually hindering the suspension of belief in the world with his antics and exploit build.
It's not to say that Tim couldn't come up with a Fighter/Ranger/Monk character background that totally made sense, helped everyone understand his character and explain is place in the story, it might even be cool enough to be on the same advancement track as John...but he didn't...
One of the games I'm in now has a barbarian going into rage prophet. He got his first level of Oracle -- with the lame curse -- after being beat up and knocked unconscious by a bunch of rogues. Woke up lamed and slightly crazy. It worked frighteningly well for coming up in an adventure path.
I don't know, I came off in the anti-explaining camp in that thread, but I think the more you can make it fit in the story the better. I just don't like a GM saying "Nope, you didn't properly explain it, you can't choose that class." It all depends on how much your group focuses on RP, if you're explicitly given the chance to say what you're doing in downtime, slip in that your rogue is trying to make sense of this weird book he stole off some old guy in robes. If your group does a lot of time skips, though, it might not come up, and that's fine too. Games are evolving things, they don't always follow neat arcs, so a little retconning is sometimes a necessary thing.
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I had fun with a sorcerer once -- every new spell, I tied into some aspect of the last adventure (either a location, item, or monster).
"How is it you can suddenly throw fireballs?"
"Remember when we camped on the slopes of that volcano? I spent the night tapping into its power and creating a mystical link to the crater. Now when I point my finger I can draw on that linkage and transmit some of the fury of the volcano."I wouldn't recommend everyone doing that with all their class features; it would be a pain in the ass and 99% probably not worth the effort. But it was a lot of fun as an experiment.
I do this sort of thing all the time with my characters. My gravewalker witch has been trying to animate undead since level 1. He's got a sort of Frankenstein obsession with making the undead walk. One of these days it's going to actually work. Won't the party be surprised then?
One of the games I'm in now has a barbarian going into rage prophet. He got his first level of Oracle -- with the lame curse -- after being beat up and knocked unconscious by a bunch of rogues. Woke up lamed and slightly crazy. It worked frighteningly well for coming up in an adventure path.
I don't know, I came off in the anti-explaining camp in that thread, but I think the more you can make it fit in the story the better. I just don't like a GM saying "Nope, you didn't properly explain it, you can't choose that class." It all depends on how much your group focuses on RP, if you're explicitly given the chance to say what you're doing in downtime, slip in that your rogue is trying to make sense of this weird book he stole off some old guy in robes. If your group does a lot of time skips, though, it might not come up, and that's fine too. Games are evolving things, they don't always follow neat arcs, so a little retconning is sometimes a necessary thing.
This is cool, when that can happen; Especially if the player is willing to do something like that when it wasn't initially planned.
Sometimes a mutliclass can foreshadow the change with some carefully picked traits as well.
Certainly for a barbarian going rage prophet, some of the rage powers help hint at power that might be gained later and become a level or two of oracle and eventually merge to rage prophet. In a lot of ways, that's an easy one. Although, most PrCs are organic like that.
The characters going for EK or AT might have some more explaining to do.
As a DM, if a rogue player wanted to transition into becoming an AT, I might let him take the minor magic rogue talent, and after he has gained his level of caster, allow him to retrain it into something else. That would be a good way of him slowly developing the power.
IF someone KNOWS they are going for a PrC, like EK, they should RP that out some how.
IF it were me, I'd invest a point or two into UMD and start dabbling early with wands and stuff.
ok, the ranger shoots his bow, the cleric heals the rogue, fighter what are you doing?
"I whip out my wand of Acid splash and shoot the guy with it"
Roll your UMD,
"8...plus 2, so 10!"
Your wand fizzles and makes a burping sound, but nothing happens.
Man why can you just hit him like a NORMAL fighter?
"Dude I'm going to get this right some day!"
AD man you are skipping the issue of why the PCs are leveling up in the middle of a dang dungeon in the first place, rather than at smart and well-planned stopping points by the GM
AD man you are skipping the issue of why the PCs are leveling up in the middle of a dang dungeon in the first place, rather than at smart and well-planned stopping points by the GM
this is why i perfer story based level advancement over numerical xp.
Even if using numerical xp...just because you hit 3001 doesnt mean you have new powers....rather it means you are about to get them...more or less.
even in MMORPG I do "level" in the middle of a dungeon, but I have to wait to complete the quest, then run ALLLLL the way over to the area in town to 'talk' to the trainer and get my new abilities, HP, spells, w/e.
So even in the much maligned virtual world, you don't "poof" into something or more power, mid dungeon.
So even in the much maligned virtual world, you don't "poof" into something or more power, mid dungeon.
In some you do, nowadays. No more go to your trainer and pay money. It just goes bling and you get your new powers added to your action bar.
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I tend to explain the leveling progression, without it really be asked.
I really don't press it on to other players, but sometimes a few will follow my lead.
When my Inquisitor of Irori starting taking levels in Monk, there was quite a bit of mentioning of training, and communing with my god prior to the level of Monk. Nobody asked me to, I just sort of wanted to.
If you mention it a little here, and there, then it comes together easily later.
You can level anywhere, and anytime, because the seeds for such growth have already been planted.
It becomes easier for players over time. Those new to it will have a little bit of hard time coming up with anything really in depth, but that's fine.
It should never be some sort of "do or die" put forth by the DM.
That sends the wrong message, and drains the joy out what could be quite a fun experience.