Good morning,
I am facing a bit of a conundrum, where a player wants to play a Monks of the Four Winds archetype. Now, we had a single session of a brand new Kingmaker campaign, and the players were a bit rushed to create their characters (we were supposed to play something else that day, but other key players could not make it). Since we only had 1 session and the characters are all still level 1, I agreed to consider the request.
I have read and re-read the Four Winds archetype and I feel uncomfortable with it as I find it does not give up enough for a large boost in power from very early on. I expect to have lots of trouble starting around level 4 or 5, where i believe he will simply destroy everything.
I read a lot of people saying that monks are underpowered, don't have enough, etc etc etc. Personally, I have never found it to be so.
Now, it is important to note that his stats are already incredible (yes, I have seen the dice rolls for them). He is also an min-max optimizer and finally, he tends to misinterpret some of the rules, which I have to often correct for him (either during the game, or afterwards when I re-read everything to understand what went wrong with the encounters). The last part is semi-excusable as the books I have are in English and his first language is French (rules/laws can be a bit trickier when they are not in your native language). But I don't necessarily have the time to optimize encounters, or double-check he would do (I am familiar enough with the core classes, but memorizing the additional archetypes would be a bit too much). I also don't want the other players to feel like they are deadweight.
Now, I do not have any issues with Monks taking Elemental Fist when their BAB reaches +8.
Yes, I do realize that what the GM says goes, but I would like to also explain the WHY behind it. I have seen rules being abused in the past and I just don't want something like that to happen again.
If anyone of you have experience something like this situation, please feel free to advise me.
I'll say right away that the 4 winds monk is nothing compared to an optimized barbarian. So if you don't mind that then don't worry about the monk. Elemental fist just doesn't seem that powerful to me when compared to a falchion swinging barbarian with rage and power attack. Not to mention great cleave. I'd let him play it and if it became a problem then I'd do something about it.
I really wouldn't be concerned at all.
Elemental Fist is less powerful than the Stunning Fist a standard monk gets at level 1 (which The Monk of the Four Winds gives up)
And at those levels that is the only difference.
Remember: Elemental Fist has to be declared BEFORE the attack roll (so if you miss it is wasted) and can only be used x times per day (where x is level)
Having a not-guaranteed ability to add an extra +d6 energy damage to ONE attack per day is not only not overpowered, it is in fact very weak.
Also remember: at higher levels when you get multiple uses per day, you can only use it once per round.
So even if you have 8 per day and can flurry for 5+ attacks, you can still only use Elemental Fist on ONE of those attacks (and still have to hope it hits)
As long as you stick to the rules I assure you you will have no problems whatsoever :)
As far as later levels- the 12th level ability for the 4W Monk LOOKS really powerful, but the conditions on it actually make it really underwhelming and it is almost impossible to abuse, so no worries there either. :)
The Elemental Fist portion is what worries me the most. The other abilities are fine in my opinion (only the 17th level one is a problem, but from a role-playing perspective, not a power one).
At level 5 it becomes 2D6 of the element of the characters choice, at level 10 - 3D6, etc.
The Elemental Fist portion is what worries me the most. The other abilities are fine in my opinion (only the 17th level one is a problem, but from a role-playing perspective, not a power one).
At level 5 it becomes 2D6 of the element of the characters choice, at level 10 - 3D6, etc.
Put it in perspective, a paladin smiting gets +5 damage, +char bonus to hit on all attacks on the chosen target until it's dead or sunset for just one use of smite.
The monk gets +2d6 damage on one attack, once per round for 5 rounds a day. It counts for nothing if her misses, and for nothing if the target has even minimal resistance to the energy type chosen.
Now consider what stunning fist would do, and how much extra damage the monk could do while the target is stunned...not so bad now, eh?
Nah, not over powered. It looks good at first level, yes, but it's no great shakes after a few levels.
Okay, thank you all for your advice. I will offer him the chance to use this archetype until the end of level 5 and see how it goes, with the understanding that if it does not work out, he needs to revert back to the normal template (I will chalk up his reversal to a temporary magical effect that now expired).
Barbarian (10) with War Oracle 1 (Lame Curse)
Lame curse makes him Immune to fatigue so he can rage cycle.
War Sight let's him roll twice for initiative and take either result
Lvl 2 rage power: lesser beast (power tax)
Lvl 4 rage power: lesser elemental (+1d6 elemental damage of choice per hit)
Lvl 6 rage power: beast totem (actually gains AC when raging)
Lvl 8 rage power: elemental (+1d6 elemental of damage of choice per hit)
Lvl 10 rage power: greater beast totem (pounce)
A power attack barbarian who can pounce and who gets +2d6 elemental damage per hit on all attacks, so long as he rages.
Yeah...don't worry about the 3/4 BaB monk...