Roleplaying Your Stats


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During an unrelated discussion, a thread I'm in began to shift toward the topic of whether you should be required to roleplay your ability scores. I'm worried we might threadjack, so I decided to make a separate place to talk about it. I don't plan on following this thread too closely, though, since my stance has been made pretty clear.

Here're some quotes:

kyrt-rider wrote:

I tend to disagree. A good wisdom means a certain number of things in game. It means a bonus to will saves and certain skills, for the most part (barring certain specific class features.)

It's far more interesting, in my mind, to come up with a character personality to play, than it is to 'play the stats' as it were.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

I understand that, which is why I said "whatever". A friend of mine likes to roleplay an incredibly low Wisdom, even though her actual score is 12. Me, I like to play the character I rolled. It's a matter of taste.

Though I'll admit I did ask to actually reroll for a lower Wisdom once. That was because a friend had already based a big chunk of her concept on the concept I had, so I couldn't nix my idea without nixing hers as well.

Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:

i have a sickly little vampiric nymph girl awaiting approval for an online game this coming sunday.

she has a 16 constitution, which one would think is quite healthy, but the sickly flavor didn't come from her constitution, but the fact she is a fey on a state between life and undeath.

if a 12 wis/14 int PC can be oblivious and a 14 int/wis PC can think with the patterns of a T-Rex.

a 16 Con half-undead fey can be sickly and a 14 int/16 wis/7 cha human inquisitor can be a cute but creepy and completely insane sadomasochistic turnkey and executioner.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:

You cannot ignore the stat and justify everything by saying it is role playing. Your stats describe your character and should mean something. If I had a charter with a 6 strength and my concept was a that I was a strong as a mule no GM is going to buy that. The same should also go for having above average stats. If you want to play the dimwit lower your wisdom. Taking the benefits of the stat but ignoring them when it is inconvenient is the same thing as ignoring the penalties of a low stat. That is one reason point buys work better than rolling your stats.

The big problem come when the characters mental stats are higher than the players. With charisma it is probably not that big of a deal, but with Intelligence and wisdom it can create problems. When I am running and a player has a high intelligence or wisdom I give them a bit more information than they ask for.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:

[@ Lumiere]

Actually, I would find that to be much more questionable. Mental stats are pretty roleplaying-based, so you can get away with more. Saying you're frail when your stats show that you're the opposite is kind of pushing it, in my book.


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I don't think you should always RP your stats. There's no point in limiting people to having certain personality traits they may not want just because they dumped a stat.

As long as it has no in-game effect or advantage, what does it matter how they play it? A low Wis char who holds the Wisdom of the Ages or whatever is perfectly possible, it's just that he also happens to be weak-willed and has a hard time seeing/hearing or whatever. A high Cha character can still be an obnoxious dingbat who just so happens to be very persuasive when he turns on the charm.

That high Con "frail" character is perfectly doable from a narrative standpoint. You ever see those characters with the "incurable cough of death" who cough up blood every few hours and such that can still take a hit from a Mack truck and keep on ticking? She's like that.

Liberty's Edge

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If you don't roleplay your stats, all you are doing is cheesy min-maxing. But I guess some people just want to be able to have the advantages of higher stats in certain areas without the penalties involved with their dump stats.


Rynjin wrote:

I don't think you should always RP your stats. There's no point in limiting people to having certain personality traits they may not want just because they dumped a stat.

As long as it has no in-game effect or advantage, what does it matter how they play it? A low Wis char who holds the Wisdom of the Ages or whatever is perfectly possible, it's just that he also happens to be weak-willed and has a hard time seeing/hearing or whatever. A high Cha character can still be an obnoxious dingbat who just so happens to be very persuasive when he turns on the charm.

That high Con "frail" character is perfectly doable from a narrative standpoint. You ever see those characters with the "incurable cough of death" who cough up blood every few hours and such that can still take a hit from a Mack truck and keep on ticking? She's like that.

i agree with this. i didn't say she was frail, but that she was sickly. there can be a differentiation. while being half undead would leave her prone to coughing up blood here and there. she can also take a lot of punishment, despite coughing up blood here and there.

and Rex's animalistic traits, despite her 14 int/wis, are a manifestation of her 5 charisma. she is a bestial savage of indomitable will and quick learning capacity (like most predators), despite having the personality of a T-Rex.

the inquisitor's cuteness was attributed to her small frame, her 18 strength and 14 Dex/Con was attributed to her ability to push her body to lethal levels. her insanity was a trait of her charisma, and though she had increased intelligence and wisdom, she was creepy and insane as a trait of her charisma, she wasn't quite stupid, just more a hybrid of charlie manson, vladimir tepes, gogo yubari, the cenobites from hell raiser, the spanish inquisition, and judge dredd. because of her massive intimidation bonus, it could be argued that she was scary, and quite capable of passing her frightening reputation.


Rynjin wrote:
That high Con "frail" character is perfectly doable from a narrative standpoint. You ever see those characters with the "incurable cough of death" who cough up blood every few hours and such that can still take a hit from a Mack truck and keep on ticking? She's like that.

After what happened the last time I brought up anime in a thread I really should leave this be, but this comment made me make another such connection (this one without any perversion.)

Ukitake Jushiro from Bleach is a really good example of this. The guy's dying from a disease, yet he's probably one of the 10 strongest characters still in the series.


Martin Kauffman 530 wrote:
If you don't roleplay your stats, all you are doing is cheesy min-maxing. But I guess some people just want to be able to have the advantages of higher stats in certain areas without the penalties involved with their dump stats.

I find this comment rather offensive to be honest. Am I a min-maxer under most circumstances? Yes. Am I cheesy for doing so? I certainly hope not. Are min-maxers the only people who roleplay a character rather than stats? Hell no.

Some of the most memorable characters I've seen in play barely resembled their stats, yet they weren't very powerful at all.

Sovereign Court

To be honest, I think people place way too much emphasis on ability scores. I try to keep them under the hood as much as possible. The only time I want to think about ability scores is when mechanics are involved. I dont really care for dump stating. I can however over look it as long as a person isn't deliberately trying to game the system. So, should a person be required to role play their ability scores? I tend to lean towards no. However, context is important to keep in mind.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
That high Con "frail" character is perfectly doable from a narrative standpoint. You ever see those characters with the "incurable cough of death" who cough up blood every few hours and such that can still take a hit from a Mack truck and keep on ticking? She's like that.

After what happened the last time I brought up anime in a thread I really should leave this be, but this comment made me make another such connection (this one without any perversion.)

Ukitake Jushiro from Bleach is a really good example of this. The guy's dying from a disease, yet he's probably one of the 10 strongest characters still in the series.

Perfect example. Haven't read Bleach in a while. Figured I'd wait until this last arc is over and done with before I read it all in one fell swoop.


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I agree that there should be some flexibility between what you're actual stats are and the portrayal of the character in game. I also think the flexibility should be reasonable. The combination of character theme and stats dictates a lot of that.

For example: I want to be a hideously scarred orc barbarian with an 18 charisma! is doable. He could be incredibly intimidating, he could demand respect, or he could even be "the brute with a heart of gold."

In another sense: I want to be a huge, musclebound Adonis that women go crazy for! I'm also a wizard with a 9STR and 8CHA! Wouldn't fly -in my own game at least. It just isn't reasonable.

I find these kind of issues best handled on a case by case basis between the GM and the player. Let's take the half-fey/half-undead sickly character with a 16 constitution for example.

As a GM I would not be against it, but I would have serious concerns to get out of the way before the game starts.

The character is portrayed as sickly and weak to the world at large, even though it isn't the case from a rules perspective. How would that effect the PC, the other PCs and NPCs?

Roleplay has a direct impact on the rules of the game. Should the character be able to use their sickly appearance to their advantage? If so, should there be penalties involved as well?

I'm imagining Kirsten Dunst's character from "Interview with a Vampire." She looked like a small child but had strength and power far superior to mortals. Sure, she could lure people into her traps with portrayals of innocence, but she'd never be able to have a normal relationship. Heck, she couldn't get into an R rated movie!

In this case I would cause the undead and sickly traits have a direct impact on the "nymph" aspect of the character. Sure, nymphs are tempting, beautiful and lure men to do their bidding. But how many men are going to be lured by a temptress who looks like she just came from vacation at the leper colony? Imagine the regular folks on the street saying, "Oh, would you look at that poor thing? I bet she was a real looker a'fore she took ill. It's a darn shame." Would tavern owners tell the PC to get out because they don't want sickness spreading?

I keep a "you gotta give some to get some" policy. I try to accommodate the PCs as long as it doesn't mess up the dynamic of the game or intentionally screw with other PCs.

As the game expands and evolves, I've noticed a growing trend for many players to create what I call "patchwork characters." Sore thumbs that stick out among sore thumbs. I appreciate the creativity, but often these characters are so full of character that they begin to effect the quality of the game for the rest of the PCs.

Stuff like, "I want to be a half-elf/half-demon sorcerer seductress who has a long lost dragon ancestor but she's ashamed of her demonic heritage (but still totally uses it's powers all the time). She tempts men into sleeping with her to get information/rob them but then feels really guilty after it happens (but keeps doing it anyway). Her goal in life is to prove to the world and herself that just because she is half-demon she's still a caring person with a good heart (even though she isn't). Also she has giant curly horns, bat wings and a devils tail which she never hides because they look sexy (even though she's ashamed of her demon heritage)".

Bah, I wrote a book, sorry. Anyway, my point is: Think about the game, the other players and the GM while making characters. Ask yourself the question: Does my backstory and character combo give me an unfair advantage? Finally, ask: If I were one of the other players, would I enjoy playing alongside this character?

Answering those questions honestly can help create a greater roleplay experience for everyone!


so the half undead nymph loli who despite looking relatively normal (although a little pale) but has a tendency to cough up blood appears a little ill. she isn't a leper. more like a tiny and emaciated pale nymph who occasionally coughs up blood, cute and has a tendency to manipulate. using her sickness to draw sympathy (half vampire, not zombie.) she isn't rotting, but she shows symptoms of tuberculosis.


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Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
so the half undead nymph loli who despite looking relatively normal (although a little pale) but has a tendency to cough up blood appears a little ill. she isn't a leper. more like a tiny and emaciated pale nymph who occasionally coughs up blood, cute and has a tendency to manipulate. using her sickness to draw sympathy (half vampire, not zombie.) she isn't rotting, but she shows symptoms of tuberculosis.

I don't know what a loli is, but lets look at the character by the description and theorize just a bit. I understand every game is different, this is just how I would run things, using two examples to illustrate the beneficial uses of the character and the hindrances they could entail. Now other GMs may feel different, and that's ok. Like I said, this is just from my view of maintaining fairness in the game.

Example 1; The Benefits: I'm a paladin who has decided to spread some faith by venturing into the world and healing the sick. I also happen to have a set of keys to the local keep, which the adventurers are trying to infiltrate. I come across a party who has with them an emaciated and sickly woman. They ask me if there is anything I can do to help. I try my "lay on hands" ability to no avail. The woman pleads for help, appealing to my dedication to good. It works! I take her to a nearby abbey and spend every moment with her, hoping the clerics can come up with a cure. During this time, the manipulative adventurer steals the keys from my bag while I am away getting her some water. She then sneaks out during the night and infiltrates the keep with her party.

Example 2; The Hindrance: I'm a 'commoner' running a restaurant and a person comes in with signs of tuberculosis. Now as a commoner, I don't know what tuberculosis is. What I do know is that the person is showing visible signs of illness including pale skin, emaciation and coughing up blood. As a business owner, I look around and see the other patrons getting uncomfortable, perhaps a little nervous. Some are leaving without finishing their meals. I would do everything I could to get that person out of my establishment as quickly as possible. No amount of 'cuteness' will overpower my desire to maintain my reputation among the community as a fine place to eat.

I think the above examples illustrate what I mean about an expectation of compromise. It wouldn't be fair to other players if an element from one PC's background story gave them tangible bonuses in-game without some kind of penalty to balance the scales.

In the end, its up to the Gm to decide. These are just my thoughts on the matter.


How your character appears is up to the player as long as it is within reason. If you want to have a character who does not look as strong as he is that is fine. Also if you want to play a smart character who comes off as dumb that is fine too. Also a unique background can give a good reason for a lot of different appearances.

If you have a character with a 14 INT, 12 WIS, and 24 CHA and run the character like Joey from friends to me that is not good role playing. If you want your character to fool everyone into thinking you are that dumb that is cool and is awesome role playing . But when you have those stats actually do stupid things that is not good role playing. This is especially true when you are doing evil acts and try and claim because your character is such a dimwit you don't really realize they are evil.

Your stats are the foundation of the character and should be role played. The reason you are getting that +4 to perception, and sense motive is because you are wise. The same way that ranks in diplomacy do not make you charming and smooth it just makes you a sleazy used car salesman. Your stats should be more than just a mechanical aspect of the game.


Tragic Missile wrote:
I think the above examples illustrate what I mean about an expectation of compromise. It wouldn't be fair to other players if an element from one PC's background story gave them tangible bonuses in-game without some kind of penalty to balance the scales.

But she's not getting a tangible bonus beyond the usual non-penalty and bonus she would have on a 16 Con character that had skin made of iron.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
If you have a character with a 14 INT, 12 WIS, and 24 CHA and run the character like Joey from friends to me that is not good role playing. If you want your character to fool everyone into thinking you are that dumb that is cool and is awesome role playing. But when you have those stats actually do stupid things that is not good role playing.

Explain. Because it seems like this is coming back to the "RP and Optimization are incompatible" fallacy.

It's usually a bad idea to dump Wis. So does that mean all my characters have to be wise just because I don't want a fairly hefty mechanical penalty? I HAVE to purposefully gimp myself just to play the ditz?

Why?

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Your stats are the foundation of the character and should be role played. The reason you are getting that +4 to perception, and sense motive is because you are wise.

Or because your eyes are sharp or you're some sort of idiot savant "human lie detector" (who exist, by the by). Perception could just as easily be controlled by Str as Wis.

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
The same way that ranks in diplomacy do not make you charming and smooth it just makes you a sleazy used car salesman.

Where are you getting this from?

Mysterious Stranger wrote:
Your stats should be more than just a mechanical aspect of the game.

Why? You have to explain these things, or otherwise you're just chucking your opinion on the table as fact.


@Tragic Missile

the character couldn't sneak into an R rated movie either. but i am sure she could through a diplomacy check, encourage the commoner, to instead of kicking her out, moving the party to a private table in a removed corner of the tavern.

she is a sorceress with a massive diplomacy bonus.


Rynjin wrote:
Tragic Missile wrote:
I think the above examples illustrate what I mean about an expectation of compromise. It wouldn't be fair to other players if an element from one PC's background story gave them tangible bonuses in-game without some kind of penalty to balance the scales.
But she's not getting a tangible bonus beyond the usual non-penalty and bonus she would have on a 16 Con character that had skin made of iron.

What I'm saying is that there is more to it than just "the bonus I get from the numbers." I may be mistaken, but it seemed implied that not only was the character being played against it's own ability score, but that it would use that fact to gain additional bonuses.

I understood it to mean that the PC would get the regular bonuses for having a 16Con and also receive the benefits of circumstance bonuses based on the character description, ie. "I look cute and sickly so I should get a +x circumstance bonus to diplomacy when dealing with this NPC."

Imagine if the GM started to do the same thing with NPCs on a regular basis.

You come across a scrawny, emaciated, pimple faced man wearing the robes of a wizard initiate. You ask him if he knows how to get to LocationX. BAM! He catches you unaware and gets a nasty first strike in! From his damage bonus it's clear his STR is in the 18-20 range. He's really a monk assassin sent to kill you! You ask why you didn't get a disguise check to see past his costume. The GM tells you it's not a costume! He is tiny, malnourished and doesn't have any muscle mass, but is strong as an ox solely for the purpose of luring in victims!

You manage to defeat the assassin but are badly injured. You come across a small roadside shrine with a priest of healing lighting candles. She has beautiful long hair and a traditional priestly frock. You tell her of your plight and she offers healing. BAM! She is actually a half-hag/half-nymph and although she is beautiful thanks to her fey blood, she hits you with her "horrific appearance" ability!

It would get real old real fast.


Knowing Lumiere as well as I do, I'm 99% sure she was referencing legitimate mechanical benefits from her own ranks/ability scores/gear rather than a circumstance bonus.

All that talk of cuteness is a combination of how she likes to roleplay it and the mechanics she's built in to back it up. Not circumstance bonuses she's trying to milk out of the DM.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong Lumi)


Tragic Missile wrote:

What I'm saying is that there is more to it than just "the bonus I get from the numbers." I may be mistaken, but it seemed implied that not only was the character being played against it's own ability score, but that it would use that fact to gain additional bonuses.

I understood it to mean that the PC would get the regular bonuses for having a 16Con and also receive the benefits of circumstance bonuses based on the character description, ie. "I look cute and sickly so I should get a +x circumstance bonus to diplomacy when dealing with this NPC."

I'm not sure where you got this impression.

Disregarding for the moment that I'm sure 99% of GMs don't give circumstance bonuses for silly things like that, she already said just above you she's a Sorcerer (high Cha) with lots of Diplomacy ranks.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

Knowing Lumiere as well as I do, I'm 99% sure she was referencing legitimate mechanical benefits from her own ranks/ability scores/gear rather than a circumstance bonus.

All that talk of cuteness is a combination of how she likes to roleplay it and the mechanics she's built in to back it up. Not circumstance bonuses she's trying to milk out of the DM.

(Please correct me if I'm wrong Lumi)

Kyrt is very correct

base diplomacy of +22

10 Ranks +3 class skill +6 charisma +3 circlet of persuasion. and that is the only cute manipulation bonus the half vampire nymph needs.

the 22 charisma gives her a cuteness factor that lures the attention of the unsuspecting individual. the diplomacy ranks represent her training in using her cuteness as a charm to manipulate, the fact it's a class skill, shows further training, and she has a magic circlet that magically enhances her confidence in her cute charm, making her better at manipulation.

no circumstance bonus required for the adorable little half vampire nymph girl who shows signs of seeming to have tuburculosis.

if she wanted, she could persuade a hostile typical peasant into letting her bite him on a 2 or better. on an 8 or better, the peasant would let her drink him dry.


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I think not Lumi. If I remember right the DC for fanatical obedience is WAY up there.


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I don't think there even IS a DC for fanatical obedience. It stops at helpful.

At helpful he MIGHT let you bite him (maybe if you really needed the blood and were dying?) but let you drain him? Yeah no.

Lantern Lodge

I view RPing ones stat best if the stat acts as the max capability. There is no way a 6 int character for example would know how to create TnT or know mathematics. A 16 int character though could know how to make TnT and complex equations but if its background does not suggest such knowledge then the character would not know how. U could have a 30 int but if u have never studied the subject at hand let alone herd of it until said subject comes up y would u know any thing about it?


Fanatic


the nymph-vampire halfbreed can't reach fanatic, but she can make a hostile commoner helpful on a 2 or better.


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I see what you are saying, it was miscommunication. I would be interested in seeing the character's build though. I would be even more interested in seeing the race points/racial abilities for a half fey/half vampire. (feypire?)

Additionally, I do not think any peasant would simply let you drink their blood regardless of diplomacy ranks. It's not a stretch of the imagination to say that peasants are aware that creatures exist in the world that drink human blood and the vast majority of those creatures are evil.

The diplomacy skill includes the text "Some requests automatically fail if the request goes against the creature's values or its nature, subject to GM discretion." for these exact situations. Unless every NPC in the game world has a romantic fascination with vampires, I would say that it is reasonable to think that "letting ANYTHING drink my blood" goes against the values and nature of most commoners.

I could see building a relationship with an NPC over time and achieving it, but not some regular Joe off the street.


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Lumiere Dawnbringer wrote:
the nymph-vampire halfbreed can't reach fanatic, but she can make a hostile commoner helpful on a 2 or better.

Unless it's a special situation, you can't shift an attitude more than two steps. Normally a hostile creature could only be made indifferent, regardless of the roll.


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Diplomacy will not make someone do something they would never do, so no, a commoner will not let the creepy little girl bleed him dry.

Also, just to clarify, I have very little problem with fooling around with appearances. High Con, looks sickly? Sure. There's no reason to question that, so I figured Lumiere meant "frail"--why else bring it up as an argument?

There's a difference between roleplaying a character with 5 Charisma as beautiful and roleplaying a character with 20 Wisdom as a mindlessly brave lunatic. It is my opinion that you should not ignore abilities, only build off of them. Perhaps the 20 Wisdom character happens to be rather dumb and therefore never puts together all the clues he spots. That's fine.

But just ignoring what you rolled because you wanted to play something else is, in my opinion, an example of counting your chickens before they're hatched. Roll, then decide. Otherwise, what's the point in rolling at all?


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Fanatic

Isn't that the 3.5 SRD?

I'm 99.99% positive that those rules no longer apply in Pathfinder.

Kobold Cleaver wrote:
But just ignoring what you rolled because you wanted to play something else is, in my opinion, an example of counting your chickens before they're hatched. Roll, then decide. Otherwise, what's the point in rolling at all?

Mechanical benefits.


Except a character with 5 charisma can BE beautiful.

One time I saw a catgirl (conceptually, not racially, I don't remember the exact race off-hand) played with a 5 charisma on the dot, who was incredibly beautiful.

Yet she had HORRIBLE people skills and as soon as she opened her mouth she creeped people out with her mannerisms and behavior and presence. The girl was, by all physical standards, 'hot' but she was the opposite of sexy, because of the bad charisma.

EDIT @Rynjin:

I've never been one to throw out material. The whole reason I bought Pathfinder was because it promoted backwards compatibility with 3.5 (which in turn promoted backwards compatibility with 3.0)

In campaigns I run, material from 3.0 through PF is all open (and all of it comes through me, INCLUDING Paizo-PF material.)


A thought occurred to me that this is just another side of stormwind showing itself. To make a character as mechanically efficient as an optimizer AND make it interesting and fun to role play with the depth of a role player, well sometimes it's convenient to ignore that the stats might mean something to make it all work together in the same character.

In my games I force you to come up with your own reasons for high or low stats in regards to role play. If you have a 7 Cha then you have a -2 to many skills and situations, SO tell me why you have a -2. You can make up almost any reason but I want to know so I can better role play people's reactions to you. Hideous appearance and no personal hygiene fine OR maybe your hot as a super model but always talk down to people like they aren't important. I just need a reason.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Except a character with 5 charisma can BE beautiful.

Sorry, that's what I said. Feel free to take a second look at my post, you might have missed the point due to this confusion.

Aranna, your approach is basically mine. Acknowledge flaws and strengths, but work around them if you have other ideas.


well, the stats were technically rolled by my obscessive compulsive dice. (which love even numbers and always either fall below 10 point buy, or above 25 points. the dice produced a 32 point PC)

but the racial build of the race

specialized array (+2 int +2 cha -2 Str)
Medium size
Normal speed
Half Undead subtype Package
Fey type
Fast Healing 1
Linguist Language Array
Light Sensitivity
Ressurection Vullnerability

Rolled Attributes (my dice have aspergers, due to their love for even numbers, patterns, and highly specific point buy equivalents.)

10, 12, 14, 14, 16, 16.


Heh, things get lost in the shuffle sometimes Kobold Cleaver, my apologies.


link to the half vampiric fey's build.

sickly little girl

i exploited the race builder a bit. and kind of took a bit from higher ranked menus. her racial abilities are a little limited.

but she is a scout and face, who also debuffs, and engages in a small amount of buffing and battlefield control.


Lumiere, I'm not sure the creepy corpse girl is relevant anymore. We certainly don't need her full stats. We're talking about representing abilities in roleplay, not whether you can max out Diplomacy.


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lumiere, I'm not sure the creepy corpse girl is relevant anymore. We certainly don't need her full stats. We're talking about representing abilities in roleplay, not whether you can max out Diplomacy.

the half-vampire nymph sees being called a creepy corpse girl as an insult.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I am a firm believer in having the numbers meet the concept.


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Meeting the concept is a very different thing from defining the concept.


kyrt-ryder wrote:
Meeting the concept is a very different thing from defining the concept.

i agree with this. there are also other means to meet a concept. such as using undeath to meet the sickly qualifier for a sickly character, using a low charisma to represent savagery, regardless of one's intellect and wisdom. and so on.


So I don't think we disagree. You shouldn't ignore your stats, but you can work around them.

Oh, and Lumiere? Half-fey gives us "creepy". Half-undead gives us "corpse". I stand by my terminology. ;D


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Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lumiere, I'm not sure the creepy corpse girl is relevant anymore. We certainly don't need her full stats. We're talking about representing abilities in roleplay, not whether you can max out Diplomacy.

That's my fault, I was interested in the character build and the rationalization behind it. There's a few inconsistencies, but it's irrelevant to the conversation so I'll drop it.

As to representing abilities, I think it should be maintained within reason. If you want to make a character with an 18Dex but also be morbidly obese, you shouldn't be upset when you fall through the roof of a building during a chase. If you want to have a 16Cha but have a useless vestigial twin hanging from you neck, that's fine too, but don't get bent out of shape when folks stay away from you.

Many players only think in terms of their own characters and force rationalization. This is understandable, but not always correct. A night hag for instance, has a 17Cha and +11Diplomacy. Should she be able to walk into a tavern in her true form and just "Diplomize" her way around so that people accept her? Of course not, why should it be any different for a player that chooses to make themselves unattractive or sickly despite their actual scores?

Inevitably it falls to the GM. I wouldn't dare speak for other GM's but I can say in my game that it would have an effect.


I completely agree.


Tragic Missile wrote:
Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Lumiere, I'm not sure the creepy corpse girl is relevant anymore. We certainly don't need her full stats. We're talking about representing abilities in roleplay, not whether you can max out Diplomacy.

That's my fault, I was interested in the character build and the rationalization behind it. There's a few inconsistencies, but it's irrelevant to the conversation so I'll drop it.

As to representing abilities, I think it should be maintained within reason. If you want to make a character with an 18Dex but also be morbidly obese, you shouldn't be upset when you fall through the roof of a building during a chase. If you want to have a 16Cha but have a useless vestigial twin hanging from you neck, that's fine too, but don't get bent out of shape when folks stay away from you.

Many players only think in terms of their own characters and force rationalization. This is understandable, but not always correct. A night hag for instance, has a 17Cha and +11Diplomacy. Should she be able to walk into a tavern in her true form and just "Diplomize" her way around so that people accept her? Of course not, why should it be any different for a player that chooses to make themselves unattractive or sickly despite their actual scores?

Inevitably it falls to the GM. I wouldn't dare speak for other GM's but I can say in my game that it would have an effect.

a hag can technically do that. it takes a while. but they can over time, make a small community friendly, even helpful towards them.


Unless the villagers stone her the minute she rears her remarkably ugly head. :P

Shadow Lodge

What do I do if all my stats are over 10?


you reroll until you have some defining weaknesses, dealing with flaws builds character and defines a story you dirty powergaming munchkin :P


Kobold Cleaver wrote:
Unless the villagers stone her the minute she rears her remarkably ugly head. :P

a hag can survive a minute of stoning to state her case.

stones deal 1d3+str, and most commoners have difficulty hitting a hags AC.


Then you work out flaws, as normal. You can have 18 in all stats and still have major failings. Work with the stats, instead of just ignoring them.

Quote:
a hag can survive a minute of stoning to state her case.

Night hags are fiends in all but name, and they look it. She can talk as nice as she likes. Most villagers are not going to listen. They will try to kill her, or they will run.

Diplomacy has its limits. What's the hag gonna do? Tie the villagers up to convince them she's a friend?


Rynjin wrote:

I don't think you should always RP your stats. There's no point in limiting people to having certain personality traits they may not want just because they dumped a stat.

As long as it has no in-game effect or advantage, what does it matter how they play it? A low Wis char who holds the Wisdom of the Ages or whatever is perfectly possible, it's just that he also happens to be weak-willed and has a hard time seeing/hearing or whatever. A high Cha character can still be an obnoxious dingbat who just so happens to be very persuasive when he turns on the charm.

That high Con "frail" character is perfectly doable from a narrative standpoint. You ever see those characters with the "incurable cough of death" who cough up blood every few hours and such that can still take a hit from a Mack truck and keep on ticking? She's like that.

Wow I'd love to play at your table so I can just dump Wisdom, Charisma and intelligence to 4 and go min-max crazy.


Except you'd run into all sorts of problems with such a build. Among them Will Saves and social encounters. Penalties hurt son.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Who in their right mind would intentionally make a feebleminded character?

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