When I first got into Pathfinder, it was for a new player who'd not played D&D before. I didn't want to go 4th edition (and never will. Ever.) but couldn't find 3rd edition books. Pathfinder was "close enough" to 3rd ed. and then when I started playing it... I realized its superiority.
That didn't mean I was going to buy the APs. however. I ended up buying Runelords because an online friend wanted me to run a Skype-based game... and it was all-inclusive and available. And suddenly? I found a module that just ignited my interest in running a game.
It was the fact Runelords was a compilation hardcover that sold me. And if I'd not read Runelords I'd not have bought other APs or subscribed to Reign of Winter (BTW, I still find it decidedly annoying that you can't backdate a subscription - new players to Pathfinder can't subscribe and get the PDFs and books together for back issues; I missed it by a matter of days for issue #1).
However! If I knew several years down the line a hardcover compilation would come out? I'd wait. In fact, the only reason I subscribed to the APs is that Runelords ignited a passion in me for running the game... and I wanted to expose my tabletop group to the same awesomeness that the Skype group was going through. (That, and Baba Yaga.)
So you're probably better off just sticking with the current format... even if I'd love to see the 3.5 APs converted to Pathfinder. ^^;;
Rob H.
Vic,
Thanks for sharing this info. What you are saying makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure Paizo has contemplated many different options with regards to updating previous APs, and I know this idea won't appeal to everybody, but I thought I'd put this out there anyway:
Have you thought about releasing a "seventh" PFRPG update AP volume for each of the 3.5 APs which would contain updated NPC stat-blocks for all of the previous 6 APs, some basic broad stroke modifications on how to better link up or DM each of the previous APs, some additional encounters and maps. What I envision is a product that would contain all the fixes to the AP (like the Anniversary Edition of RotRL) but which would not necessarily reprint the core text of the 6 APs.
This would encourage customers to buy old AP volumes of CotCT, SD and LOF as they would still be necessary to play the AP in its updated form. It would also avoid the risk of people cancelling their subscription thinking that they can just wait for a compilation.
These updates could be published in a 64 page module format or a 100 page AP format as necessary. Or if printing would be too costly or if more than 100 pages were needed, maybe you could do a pdf only format like you are doing for "The Emerald Spire" mega-adventure.
Anyway, I know this wouldn't be a hit with everybody, but I would definitely buy these updates.
I agree with this. Even if it were PDF only to keep costs down, I would like to see an "official" version of an update to all the 3.5 AP's. This would keep people buying the older stuff (like I did with one of the SD AP sales), without being overly cost prohibative. Note that this would still cost time, treasure and talent from Paizo to do however even in a PDF. Without a clear indicator that this would sell well, it is unlikely to occur.
If you want to see the conversions happen though, supporting the option most likely to be funded IMHO(a "7th part of the 3.5 AP's) is most likely the best horse to back at this current time.
In Italy they announced a couple of weeks ago an hardcover version of Kingmaker!
Hmmm...who "announced" that?
The Italian translator/publisher, I'm guessing? Like the French translator/publisher, iirc, offers a slipcover to hold the 6 AP volumes.
EDIT: Distributor! That's the word I'm looking for. Giochi, presumably.
Vic,
Thanks for sharing this info. What you are saying makes a lot of sense.
I'm sure Paizo has contemplated many different options with regards to updating previous APs, and I know this idea won't appeal to everybody, but I thought I'd put this out there anyway:
Have you thought about releasing a "seventh" PFRPG update AP volume for each of the 3.5 APs which would contain updated NPC stat-blocks for all of the previous 6 APs, some basic broad stroke modifications on how to better link up or DM each of the previous APs, some additional encounters and maps. What I envision is a product that would contain all the fixes to the AP (like the Anniversary Edition of RotRL) but which would not necessarily reprint the core text of the 6 APs.
This would encourage customers to buy old AP volumes of CotCT, SD and LOF as they would still be necessary to play the AP in its updated form. It would also avoid the risk of people cancelling their subscription thinking that they can just wait for a compilation.
These updates could be published in a 64 page module format or a 100 page AP format as necessary. Or if printing would be too costly or if more than 100 pages were needed, maybe you could do a pdf only format like you are doing for "The Emerald Spire" mega-adventure.
Anyway, I know this wouldn't be a hit with everybody, but I would definitely buy these updates.
I agree with this. Even if it were PDF only to keep costs down, I would like to see an "official" version of an update to all the 3.5 AP's. This would keep people buying the older stuff (like I did with one of the SD AP sales), without being overly cost prohibative. Note that this would still cost time, treasure and talent from Paizo to do however even in a PDF. Without a clear indicator that this would sell well, it is unlikely to occur.
If you want to see the conversions happen though, supporting the option most likely to be funded IMHO(a "7th part of the 3.5 AP's) is most likely the best horse to back at this...
Thanks for the vote of support GMG!
When I initially posted about this idea, no one commented on it so I'm not sure if it was because of lack of interest, or if it just went unnoticed amidst the debate.
Acknowledging the cost in time and talent from Paizo (which could be significant), if they released a 7th part to serve as an update for the 3.5 AP's, I'm sure a product like that would not only be bought by a lot of people but that it would also lead to increase sales of the 3.5 AP volumes.
However, Vic has previously mentioned that to a certain extent it is healthy for the popularity of older products to wane so that newer products can replace them in the spotlight (in other words, Paizo doesn't want to be competing with itself and it's important for new products to sell).
Anyway, I'd be curious to hear from people on the boards what they think about the idea of Paizo releasing updates (either in pdf or print) for the 3.5 APs that would still require customers to buy all the individual volumes of the AP.
i would buy updated books of old AP's, but not a 7th book just to get the updates. thats what the message boards are for:)
i would buy updated books of old AP's, but not a 7th book just to get the updates. thats what the message boards are for:)
The message boards for Second Darkness specifically are somewhat underpopulated. Don't get me wrong, what's there is good (and what I'm using now) but I personally would like to see an "official" conversion.
Besides I think given the titles left available for sale for that particular AP in stock, a seventh part of the AP might well be the only shot it has at being converted. After all if enough people bought this one it would bode well for the other AP's. (IMHO once again) The pros would be that you could set one person to do it. But it would still take time, treasure and talent from Paizo to have it come to print. (Printed by users as it would be a PDF) Without a large groundswell of support to make it come to life however, I just don't see it happening anytime soon.
Sure I want to see a conversion of all the 3.5 AP's. However, if you can prove that there is interest in a full conversion of the 3.5 AP's to PF by buying out a more budget sensative alternative (Seventh issue of a 3.5 AP, Second Darkness to be specific in this example) You have a much more budget freindly way to prove that this should happen.
Just my two Electrum pieces (Oh, the Rogue didn't tell you they were rare and worth five times their face value? How did that happen?)
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It was a one off celebration of paizo's anniversary, the launch of pathfinder, etcetera.
Here is the post from vic on the topic, in which he asks us to squash the idea. He has lots of other really thorough posts if you search his history for compilations or reprints.
Vic:
"Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.
This is a unique circumstance."
Lol - in other words:
"Seriously guys, as paying customers and the very lifeblood of everything we do here at Paizo, stop asking for things you'd like to buy. "
Wow.
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No. It's more "stop asking for products that would cut into our profit margin and put us out of business."
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Pretty much that. From what I've read, compilations would pretty much ruin Paizo, so it's in their best interest to not do them and to keep people's expectations about compilations relatively low.
Sometimes the customer isn't always right. Usually because the customer is too busy thinking about their wants rather than the economical needs of a company. Especially a company in a niche market that could easily flop like so many others.
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It was a one off celebration of paizo's anniversary, the launch of pathfinder, etcetera.
Here is the post from vic on the topic, in which he asks us to squash the idea. He has lots of other really thorough posts if you search his history for compilations or reprints.
Vic:
"Seriously, guys, please stop asking for other compilations. It's not going to happen, and I don't want people who don't read carefully thinking it's likely to happen.
One of the main reasons for not doing this one is that just having the notion out there that we *might* do this for other APs is harmful. I'd really appreciate it if everybody would help squash that idea whenever and wherever it is raised.
This is a unique circumstance."
Lol - in other words:
"Seriously guys, as paying customers and the very lifeblood of everything we do here at Paizo, stop asking for things you'd like to buy. "
Wow.
Not really. If you read all his posts on this topic, rather than just that snippet i quoted, it's more "Please keep giving us feedback. Please keep telling us what you want. But in this one, specific, very unique circumstance - please understand that we can't do it and that the mere presence of requests for it is a risk. Now that you know the answer and the reasons for it, we'd really like you to keep your enthusiasm in check. Otherwise people skimming the boards will think that we sometimes do these compilations as a matter of course, or that its likely to happen again eventually."
That comment was addressed to a bunch of us who'd been batting that specific idea around over a bunch of threads, it's not a statement of general policy regarding customer feedback pertaining to all their products.
If anyone is thinking of updated APs, the first ones to do would be the 3.5 non-pathfinder game system APs. Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, and Legacy of Fire. Though APs like Kingmaker and Council of Thieves could use new additions to their systems I think the ones that need most work or update are the three APs after RotRL.
If anyone is thinking of updated APs, the first ones to do would be the 3.5 non-pathfinder game system APs. Curse of the Crimson Throne, Second Darkness, and Legacy of Fire. Though APs like Kingmaker and Council of Thieves could use new additions to their systems I think the ones that need most work or update are the three APs after RotRL.
For everyone that wants a re-release of old 3.5 ed APs like those mentioned above, simply buy all their stock in them so they have no choice:) personally next i'm looking into Second Darkness (for the fun of it, and i always liked Drow)
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OK, if you're going to necro a thread, please read it through from the beginning before you do!
Paizo has made it very clear that they will not consider doing an Anniversary Edition of any AP other than Runelords, and actually consider even messageboard discussion of the possibility to be damaging to the sales of their flagship product, the AP line. Vic Wertz, the CTO, has politely requested that we refrain from such speculation (in this thread, in fact) lest people who happen on posts of that nature be confused into thinking that such compilations are in fact in the works or being considered.
Yes, compilations would be very cool, but they aren't going to happen. Sorry. If you like having all the AP volumes in one, you can buy the PDFs and take the files to a print shop and have them print them out and bind them together for you.
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Take a high-res snapshot of each page of the AP. Insert the picture into a document (like MS Word; 1 image per page). Convert it to a PDF. Have it printed as a B&W, hardcover on Lulu.
-Skeld
Seems like a lot of extra effort when you are allowed to print a PDF for personal use.
I completely support the Kickstarter idea and I imagine a lot of other folks would as well. I would merrily put up the cash in advance for a high quality, hardback edition of the older APs (updated to the current rules set as required).
EDIT: And maybe some new art? :D
Agreed. I'd kickstart 3.5 updated collected editions in a heartbeat.
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Paizo has made it very clear that they will not consider doing an Anniversary Edition of any AP other than Runelords, and actually consider even messageboard discussion of the possibility to be damaging to the sales of their flagship product, the AP line.
Sorry, but I'm going to have a hard time NOT telling a company that I have made a financial commitment to which things I'd like to give them even more money for doing. They can ignore me (and many, many others) as they wish, but silencing long-time patrons because they want to spend even more money would be pretty hard to defend.
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They've acknowledged that (read the thread, really) and made the point that creating an expectation of compilations, even an unfounded expectation, could potentially hurt the profitability of the company. They want your feedback on everything they do, EXCEPT this. It's not about whether the compilations would sell (they're sure they would), nor whether they would pay for themselves (they're sure of that too) nor whether they would be profitable (they probably would be, to a degree). Paizo's continued existence really does depend on the subscription model for their APs first and foremost, and doing anything that would provide an incentive for people to cancel their subscriptions in favor of waiting for compilations is something they will never even consider doing. And asking, creating threads like this one, and getting a bunch of responses that chime in saying, "Hey I'd buy that!" might lead to some people thinking a compilation might be coming, and result in them reconsidering a subscription.
So it's not that they're saying, "Please don't tell us what you'd like us to make!" It's that they've said, "Please do tell us what you'd like us to make, except for this one specific thing that we have determined we will never ever make because [reasons] and are worried that getting lots of people asking for might hurt our business model. But other than that one specific thing, we're open to suggestions! We might not do anything with them but we're always listening. Except for that one thing. Please don't ask for that. Anything else, go for it."
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Seems like a lot of extra effort when you are allowed to print a PDF for personal use.Take a high-res snapshot of each page of the AP. Insert the picture into a document (like MS Word; 1 image per page). Convert it to a PDF. Have it printed as a B&W, hardcover on Lulu.
-Skeld
Compiled hardcover, as in putting all 6 issues of an AP into a single hardcover book. You can print on a home printer, but I dont know of anyone that can print and bind 6 issues into a single hardback. I'm not sure Kinkos et al can do a 600 page saddle-stitch book. Lulu can do it for about $30 (B&W) and you can add/remove pages as needed.
Remember, people are asking about compiled hardbacks, not "printed on a home printer and put into a 3-ring binder."
-Skeld
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The only reason I subscribed to the Reign of Winter (and following APs) was that they don't do compilations for their APs. The Runelords Anniversary Edition was the "gateway drug" AP that got me interested in their other products. This seems like an excellent business model for Paizo. Why put in the extra work and effort to edit and compile (and in some cases translate to Pathfinder from 3.5) old APs when they can instead put their people to work making new APs like they're doing?
It is not in Paizo's best interests to create an Anniversary Edition for ANY of the APs outside of Runelords. They would have to hire more people to work on these anniversary editions, and people on a limited budget may very well decide "I'm going to spend $60 for the new Anniversary Editions coming out rather than $120 for the regular AP."
Nor are the other APs guaranteed to be as popular as Runelords AE has been. If they're stuck with hundreds or thousands of copies? That's a business loss.
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Kingmaker was my gateway AP
:)
Chief Technical Officer
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I would like to be clear that we do try to avoid saying *never*. When we did the Rise of the Runelords anniversary edition, we said that it was a special circumstance—an exception to the rule—but we haven't said that there will definitely never ever be another exception. But it took 5 years to do the first one, and it's been a few years since that came out, and we're not working on one now.
Nah. You should say "never" like a certain individual in a managerial position at a place where I might have employment said "the company will never offer telecommuting because I feel it is detrimental to productivity and employee loyalty" - which is why I've been working for several years now via Remote Access from my home. ;)
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My point, and that of many others, is not the expectation that all of the AP's be pre-destined for hardbound compilations... but rather compilations of those AP's which, like Rise of the Runelords are out of print and, like Rise of the Runelords, are in need of updating from the old 3.5 ruleset.
We aren't asking for someone to hardbind some pdf's for us - that's already possible for us to do on our own as has been pointed out - we're asking for an updated product fully compatible with the existing ruleset, for a product that would take less effort to create than a normal AP would from scratch and wouldn't in any way compete with future products, perhaps with some new artwork.
Runelords was my gateway in as well - I NEVER would have gotten on board with an AP subscription without that finished product to get a sense of what I'd be receiving. Likewise, old books that I wasn't around for, old books out of print, old books updated in the same fashion Runelords was, would in no way ever cause me to reconsider my current AP subscription for new material. Laser guns and androids might, cumbersome and unnecessary rules like Mythic might, but certainly not more of the product I've wanted since I first discovered the game.
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My point, and that of many others, is not the expectation that all of the AP's be pre-destined for hardbound compilations... but rather compilations of those AP's which, like Rise of the Runelords are out of print and, like Rise of the Runelords, are in need of updating from the old 3.5 ruleset.
We aren't asking for someone to hardbind some pdf's for us - that's already possible for us to do on our own as has been pointed out - we're asking for an updated product fully compatible with the existing ruleset, for a product that would take less effort to create than a normal AP would from scratch and wouldn't in any way compete with future products, perhaps with some new artwork.
Runelords was my gateway in as well - I NEVER would have gotten on board with an AP subscription without that finished product to get a sense of what I'd be receiving. Likewise, old books that I wasn't around for, old books out of print, old books updated in the same fashion Runelords was, would in no way ever cause me to reconsider my current AP subscription for new material. Laser guns and androids might, cumbersome and unnecessary rules like Mythic might, but certainly not more of the product I've wanted since I first discovered the game.
I 1000000000% agree with this. Just makes perfect sense. The entire "some people might get confused and not buy APs because they will wait for compilations" is not an argument that withstands the mighty presence of logic for too long. Especially now that Paizo have put out several hardcovers (like the Emerald Spire) that people might think are APs. What, is it possible to explain to people that Emerald Spire is not an AP, but impossible to explain to them that the only APs getting a compilation are the 3.5 ones? Call the entire thing "Project XXXX" (where XXXX is some appropriate name) and market it as a big event where the old APs are being converted to Pathfinder and BAM, problem mostly solved by a simple shtick.
As I said in the past, I suspect the reason Paizo isn't putting out hardcovers for the 3.5 APs is simply that they don't want to do it. Runelords was a TON of work for them, and not the kind they are excited about - like making new stuff. This is perfectly reasonable.
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I always enjoy threads like this one, where history professors, unemployed students, dermatologists, plumbers and sports store managers are all suddenly mavericks of RPG book publishing industry with innate knowledge of how the industry works, what are the preferences of the target group, how do the sales spread across product lines and just how simple it is to put a product out. :)
I always enjoy threads like this one, where history professors, unemployed students, dermatologists, plumbers and sports store managers are all suddenly mavericks of RPG book publishing industry with innate knowledge of how the industry works, what are the preferences of the target group, how do the sales spread across product lines and just how simple it is to put a product out. :)To be fair, as a consumer, all you have to know is what you will spend your money on. What you won't spend your money on can be helpful as well. Companies can decide if they want money from consumers based on this information.
My thoughts on a 10 year anniversary editions seem logical. That gives Paizo at least 3 years to update the next AP to Pathfinder rules and release it. I do not believe that the re-release of 10 year old, out of print content will compete with brand new, never before seen content. I suspect that many of the people here work in white collar business roles and while they may not know the intricacies of the roleplaying game market, they likely have some general business experience.
Agreed.
you don't need to be a 'market insider' to apply logic and common sense, nor do you need to fully understand the intricacies of an evolving business model to be able to express what you would and wouldn't like to give Paizo money to do.
I still think a kickstarter for 3.5 updated compilations would solve both the demand and risk concerns. I don't know of a single person who would cancel their subscription for brand new material because they might get a chance to buy old, out-of-print material. As I said earlier, laser guns and robots or cumbersome and unnecessary rules like Mythic are much, much more likely to discourage my AP subscription than Paizo simply releasing additional purchase options. I can't speak for everyone, but the point is that no one can - including Paizo themselves.
In theory modules and AP's would be in direct competition for the consumer's dollar, but that doesn't seem to be a great concern, does it? Of course its not, nor should it be. I'm in agreement with Lord Snow in that more than any stated concern about hardcovers of out-of-print material disrupting ongoing subscriptions, the fact is that Paizo simply doesn't want to do it. Either because their profit margin is slimmer, they want to manufacture demand for outdated material so long as they have stock on hand or because they want to keep their staff as small as possible and they don't have the manpower to do the additional work. I, personally, would disagree on all counts but I'm fine with acknowledging that, as an outsider, I don't have all of the information to make that judgment.
I think they'd be surprised at the response a Kickstarter offer would have...
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And of course because this is the Internet you also have people who run their own businesses or have a job in the information sector and deal regularly with business-related literature concerning market shares, sunk costs, and other arcane elements that the lay person may have no idea about but which provide a more concise reason as to why we're not going to see hardcover compilations of the 3.5 APs even if a certain overeager and vocal minority keeps beating the same old drum over and over and over again demanding that the customer is always right and thus this product should be made.
Small clue: the customer is not always right. In many cases the customer is wrong. And if by trying to satisfy a minority element of customers the company goes out of business because of bad business decisions? Then the entire customer base suffers as a result.
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Of course we don't need no understanding of the business in order to express our wishes. I'm still waiting for Sexual Assault in Golarion and Transgendered Pornography of the Inner Sea and I seriously have no idea why these books didn't get printed yet, I mean I talked to my gaming group and everybody agrees it's a cool idea. Even my cat agrees.
But I digress.
Kickstarter solves precisely zero problems here. Kickstarter provides money. Paizo doesn't need money to put new books out. It needs manpower.
"Kickstart some money and hire new permanent employees!" Well, that'll put the Kickstarter well above what's needed for this one project. I don't even think that's kosher with Kickstarter rules, asking for money that isn't related to the kickstarted project. Let alone the question of what these new people are supposed to do once the book is out.
"Kickstart some money and hire temp works for this book only!" Well, do you know what are the salaries in RPG gaming industry? I'll give you an expert insider insight: they're not stellar. They're actually piss poor compared to video games and board games industries, and both require similar talents. You're not going to hire anybody temporarily with such salaries, and by anybody I mean somebody that's competent enough. I won't even mention the fact that US jurisdiction has some really weird regulations concerning temp workers. And that we're talking Seattle here, with dozens of companies in need of editors, writers and developers who are into fantasy and scifi.
"Profit margins are not slimmer!" - well duh, logic and common sense, how much can you sell the same product all over again if your name isn't Steve Jobs? Not much. Sure, there's some profit, but not as much as from something else. Business are about earning money, remember? You need to prioritize. And going back to the industry size and wealth question - in such a tiny industry, you can't afford to make mistakes. Especially with WotC now back in the game.
"People won't cancel their APs because older ones get reprinted!" Excuse me, any empirical data here? Any poll? A sample of, say, 1000 targeted interviews? Basic market research apart from the fact that your gaming group said so? We have anything? Bueller? Bueller? A serious company can't do a Kickstarter just to try and see if there's demand. Doing so indicates that they are unable to conduct proper market research. You're either doing a successful KS or not doing it at all, else you're damaging your market credibility. Tiny industry argument rears its ugly head again.
Above all - more than anything else, this reminds me of all those vocal folks requesting a Dragon/Dungeon magazine art book. Such book happened. It was a hardcover at 30 USD at lauch. It was a pretty fantastic book, I have it sitting on my shelf. It is now discounted at 5 USD here. With over a 1000 of them clogging up Paizo shelf space. What people ask for is not always what they are willing to shell out money for.
Kickstarter solves precisely zero problems here. Kickstarter provides money. Paizo doesn't need money to put new books out. It needs manpower.
"Kickstart some money and hire new permanent employees!" Well, that'll put the Kickstarter well above what's needed for this one project. I don't even think that's kosher with Kickstarter rules, asking for money that isn't related to the kickstarted project. Let alone the question of what these new people are supposed to do once the book is out.
"Kickstart some money and hire temp works for this book only!" Well, do you know what are the salaries in RPG gaming industry? I'll give you an expert insider insight: they're not stellar. They're actually piss poor compared to video games and board games industries, and both require similar talents. You're not going to hire anybody temporarily with such salaries, and by anybody I mean somebody that's competent enough. I won't even mention the fact that US jurisdiction has some really weird regulations concerning temp workers. And that we're talking Seattle here, with dozens of companies in need of editors, writers and developers who are into fantasy and scifi.
"Profit margins are not slimmer!" - well duh, logic and common sense, how much can you sell the same product all over again if your name isn't Steve Jobs? Not much. Sure, there's some profit, but not as much as from something else. Business are about earning money, remember? You need to prioritize. And going back to the industry size and wealth question - in such a tiny industry, you can't afford to make mistakes. Especially with WotC now back in the game.
"People won't cancel their...
All pretty true, but I like it better when you stick to funny.
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All pretty true, but I like it better when you stick to funny.Kickstarter solves precisely zero problems here. Kickstarter provides money. Paizo doesn't need money to put new books out. It needs manpower.
"Kickstart some money and hire new permanent employees!" Well, that'll put the Kickstarter well above what's needed for this one project. I don't even think that's kosher with Kickstarter rules, asking for money that isn't related to the kickstarted project. Let alone the question of what these new people are supposed to do once the book is out.
"Kickstart some money and hire temp works for this book only!" Well, do you know what are the salaries in RPG gaming industry? I'll give you an expert insider insight: they're not stellar. They're actually piss poor compared to video games and board games industries, and both require similar talents. You're not going to hire anybody temporarily with such salaries, and by anybody I mean somebody that's competent enough. I won't even mention the fact that US jurisdiction has some really weird regulations concerning temp workers. And that we're talking Seattle here, with dozens of companies in need of editors, writers and developers who are into fantasy and scifi.
"Profit margins are not slimmer!" - well duh, logic and common sense, how much can you sell the same product all over again if your name isn't Steve Jobs? Not much. Sure, there's some profit, but not as much as from something else. Business are about earning money, remember? You need to prioritize. And going back to the industry size and wealth question - in such a tiny industry, you can't afford to make mistakes. Especially with WotC now back in the game.
"People won't cancel their...
I can't please everybody all the time :(
I can't please everybody all the time :(All pretty true, but I like it better when you stick to funny.Kickstarter solves precisely zero problems here. Kickstarter provides money. Paizo doesn't need money to put new books out. It needs manpower.
"Kickstart some money and hire new permanent employees!" Well, that'll put the Kickstarter well above what's needed for this one project. I don't even think that's kosher with Kickstarter rules, asking for money that isn't related to the kickstarted project. Let alone the question of what these new people are supposed to do once the book is out.
"Kickstart some money and hire temp works for this book only!" Well, do you know what are the salaries in RPG gaming industry? I'll give you an expert insider insight: they're not stellar. They're actually piss poor compared to video games and board games industries, and both require similar talents. You're not going to hire anybody temporarily with such salaries, and by anybody I mean somebody that's competent enough. I won't even mention the fact that US jurisdiction has some really weird regulations concerning temp workers. And that we're talking Seattle here, with dozens of companies in need of editors, writers and developers who are into fantasy and scifi.
"Profit margins are not slimmer!" - well duh, logic and common sense, how much can you sell the same product all over again if your name isn't Steve Jobs? Not much. Sure, there's some profit, but not as much as from something else. Business are about earning money, remember? You need to prioritize. And going back to the industry size and wealth question - in such a tiny industry, you can't afford to make mistakes. Especially with WotC now back in the game.
"People won't cancel their...
maybe you should try harder:)
I'd buy a PF Curse of the Crimson Throne hardcover compilation in a heartbeat. I'd pay $100 for it.
Aside from Crimson Throne (or the other 3.5 ones) being updated into a hardback. I dont really understand why they dont do new print runs of really popular APs in their softcover form. Kingmaker is pretty much OOP, but it is still one of the most popular APs there is. I would think a new print run of softcovers would sell with no problem. As it stands now most of the individual adventures run for anywhere between $30-70 per issue from the rando's on Ebay and Amazon.
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As many of you know, one of the biggest issues that lead to TSR's insolvency is the proliferation of campaign settings. When they were actively selling one or two or three campaign settings to their audience, a big chunk of their audience would buy any given book they were releasing. When they were actively selling seven or eight campaign settings, only a small fraction of the audience would buy any given release.
A similar problem exists with APs, as the typical gaming group plays only one at a time. Right now, a group looking for an AP might well rule out the 3.5 ones, and the ones that have volumes out of print, so that leaves them 7 APs to consider—or, assuming quality and appeal being similar among them, a 1 in 7 chance they'll buy the current product. If we updated the 3.5 ones, and reprinted the out-of-print volumes, the odd that they'd choose the current release drop to 1 in 12.
The simple fact is that we need to sell you what we're making more than we need to sell you what we've made, and allowing things to go out of print is therefore a necessity.
And when those out-of-print volumes go for big money on eBay, that's actually helpful in that it helps establish an upward trend for the future value of a present subscription, and underlines the fact that the best time to subscribe to our lines is "as soon as possible."
Republishing popular APs that will sell seems a far cry from TSR spitting out full lines for 8 different campaign settings.
Heres another thought, what if someone wants to buy a whole AP from Paizo, but cant get one of the installments (usually the first) because it is out of print? This is currently the case with both Carrion Crown and Skull and Shackles. That is 5 units of current product that could be shipped, but wont because its missing one piece.
But my real question, has the company suffered from the RotRL AE, or have they made a tidy profit from it? It has to be one of the highest selling non-core products they have.
You realize this is part of the Paizo Forums Drinking Game, don't you?
Okay. There are several factors why this will not come about.
1. Translating an AP into hardback form requires manpower which will pull people from existing APs and other products - so if you want a Hardcover, other products will suffer as a result.
2. By printing additional hardback APs you create the illusion that all APs will eventually be put in this form. What is cheaper, 6 paperback APs or one Hardcover? Why should anyone subscribe to an AP if they can just wait five years for it to become a Hardcover? This results in lost sales.
3. Backlogs of old APs. Runelords was their first AP. They underestimated how popular it would be and it sold out mostly. Other APs they still have print copies of parts of it in their warehouse. (See "Great Golem Sale" for an example of trying to clean out the warehouse, which included selling old APs for $6 each - or in other words, probably selling them for a small loss to reduce warehouse costs.)
4. The customer is not always right.
You didn't really address either of the specific questions I posited.
Aren't all of the APs also available through PDF? You can buy the PDFs. Then you can translate it to Pathfinder or go to one of several websites with conversions or use Hero Labs which converted it.
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Seems like a lot of extra effort when you are allowed to print a PDF for personal use.
Our local print shop still refuses to print PDFs, even with this. "It's not offical, and could have put there by you, or anyone"
I'd also be nice to have the official professional looking Kingmaker. I don't want them to make hardcover compilations of Kingmaker, just reprint a batch of the first few books.
The non mint versions of books paizo sells are not substantially damaged, in my view (ive had a couple where i couldnt pick why they were Listed as such. most just have a dinged corner or spine).
I'd try those if you're looking to fill out a collection (all but one of the kingmaker AP volumes are still available that way).