Critical Hits


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Goblin Squad Member

Tuoweit wrote:

...

I guess I simply didn't understand what you referred to as vanishingly small. 5% to me is quite significant and would work perfectly fine. Vanishingly small, to me, meant something like 0.01% or less, and that was reinforced your suggestion that it might only happen once every few hours. A 5% crit chance on the other hand will happen quite often, if combat is as common as it is in most fantasy MMOs. So I think we actually agree, and I unwittingly set up a strawman :) This is why choice of words is important....
...

The fault is surely mine: I was referencing preceding numbers being bandied about which were far smaller than 5%. the 1:20 ratio was just where the critical hit was at its origin back in the day.

However if we are talking about a 5% chance then it starts to become meaningful if I am measuring over the span of hours of melee, each strike having a 5% chance of being a critical hit.

While it will remain true that the 5% applies to each individual strike we will also find incidence that registers on a probability scale that varies with frequency.

Goblin Squad Member

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I, like DeciusBrutus, am very happy that they did away with the extreme randomness of combat.

Combat should certainly have random elements, such as damage ranges for attacks, weapons, armor, other equipment with special effects, a method of character progression that almost guarantees no 2 characters will be the same (even with the same equipment, played by the same player), the list goes on...

Taking out the chance to do damage-times-zero and the chance to do damage-times-X (where X is an integer) is good, imo. I am still on the edge of my seat when the formula is damage-times-Y (where Y is a decimal), but I can also feel accomplished when all my preparations for battle paid off.

It's probably for the same reason I don't like gambling. I don't like getting something for nothing.

I just wanted to add my opinion to the mix; carry on, fellow crowdforgers!


Being wrote:


The fault is surely mine: I was referencing preceding numbers being bandied about which were far smaller than 5%. the 1:20 ratio was just where the critical hit was at its origin back in the day.

However if we are talking about a 5% chance then it starts to become meaningful if I am measuring over the span of hours of melee, each strike having a 5% chance of being a critical hit.

While it will remain true that the 5% applies to each individual strike we will also find incidence that registers on a probability scale that varies with frequency.

The issue here is the amount of time difference for a combat in a tabletop game versus one in a MMO. A fight that takes 15 or 20 minutes(with experienced gamers and GM, who know their characters and so on) ca4n be over in 30 or 40 seconds in an MMO. You have MANY, MANY more chances to roll that 1 in 20. I played Neverwinter Nights in 2 persistent online worlds for many years, mostly playing a monk. In tabletop, a 19-20 crit chance(a monk's unarmed strike + Improved Critical) comes up maybe once or twice a game session. In NWN, with my epic level monk attacking 9+ times a round, it seemed like it happened all the time... because it DID.

You probably won't see that power level in PFO for a long time, but the point is still the same. 1 or 2 out of 20 shows up a bunch more in online games than in tabletop... I'm glad the people at GW are keeping a close eye on this.


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The element of chance works better as a function of gameplay that is slow-paced and deliberate than it does of gameplay that is quick and frenzied. In slower medium you can have individual game changing elements of chance because they happen rarely enough that they can't be relied upon and slowly enough that you can react to them in a meaningful way. With faster medium they tend to end up being fairly reliable, and as such cannot be game changing without breaking everything.

Tabletop Crits: "Hell yeah took that bastard down!" or "OH SWEET JESUS I GOT CRIT GOTTA RUN OH SHIT" - Meaningful difference based on something actually unpredictable.

Video Game Crits: "Oh well I could do 400 damage a hit or I could do 350 damage a hit with a 20% chance for a +110% damage crit... with the crits I have 7% higher DPS! I'll do that!" - Pointless difference based on RNG that works itself out easily over time.

Edit: It's worth noting that I think PFO is handling crits in a much more meaningful way. Giving them a randomized side-effect that lasts for some period of time is a great way to deal with frequency and to make them both unreliable and game-changing without breaking everything. (15% Crit chance? Oh great I just wounded the shield arm of the caster with nothing in his offhand. Woo."

You know what, I'm gonna just say it: Bravo GW!

Goblin Squad Member

@waffleyone: Thanks for that insight: That is indeed a great way of looking at this topic!

I like the idea of knackering someone's shield arm for a good period of time, while my right leg is at an unnatural angle.

Goblin Squad Member

There is a certain sense of satisfaction that can come from critical hits though. Although after PnP GMing a party with a Magus, you definitely get to see the annoying part of critical hits....

Completely random critical hits I'm not sure if I'm sold on. You still want your critical hit to have a MEANINGFUL effect, would be sad to crit only to discover you have silenced a barbarian, or the wiz you crit has a -5 to attack.

Goblin Squad Member

The Wiseman of the Wilds wrote:

There is a certain sense of satisfaction that can come from critical hits though. Although after PnP GMing a party with a Magus, you definitely get to see the annoying part of critical hits....

Completely random critical hits I'm not sure if I'm sold on. You still want your critical hit to have a MEANINGFUL effect, would be sad to crit only to discover you have silenced a barbarian, or the wiz you crit has a -5 to attack.

Guilty of the magus crits. My GM got rather annoyed when I killed a level appropriate mob in 1 round after critically hitting with two Intensified Shocking Grasps. He got even more annoyed when it started occuring more frequently :P

As far as meaningful effects of crits, Im not sure it HAS to be meaningful. In game and IRL the same injury can have a greater effect on different people. Lose your voice as a technician/programmer and you can carry on for the most part. Lose it as a lecturer or speaker and youve got a big problem.

Your critically hitting mace has an equal chance of breaking anyones jaw. Fighters shouldnt suddenly get immunity to it just because it wont be as big a deal to them as a wizard.

What Id rather see happen instead is have the crit debuffs apply to various skill checks and the like. Broken arm? Penalty to crafting. Broken jaw/lost voice? Penalty to bluff and diplomacy checks. And so on.


In a video game, if every crit is game-changing (silencing a caster), they must happen very rarely or else they break the game. Crits don't have to do that reliably to be meaningful.

I'm very curious what GW's plan is with regards to the length of crit debuffs. I could see them lasting between about a minute and half an hour - any real permanence to the effects of crits and too many of them become too abnoxious.

Goblin Squad Member

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@Oberyn Corvus, I love where you're going with this. I don't know how technically challenging it would be, but I would love to see a game with much more attention paid to character states. Things like "soaking wet", "well fed", "hot", "cold"... I think it would be great to see a game that really developed that.

Goblin Squad Member

If they are assessing effectiveness in armor/weaponry according to descriptors it should be only a short step to assessing character effectiveness according to descriptors.

Goblin Squad Member

Oberyn Corvus wrote:
The Wiseman of the Wilds wrote:

There is a certain sense of satisfaction that can come from critical hits though. Although after PnP GMing a party with a Magus, you definitely get to see the annoying part of critical hits....

Completely random critical hits I'm not sure if I'm sold on. You still want your critical hit to have a MEANINGFUL effect, would be sad to crit only to discover you have silenced a barbarian, or the wiz you crit has a -5 to attack.

Guilty of the magus crits. My GM got rather annoyed when I killed a level appropriate mob in 1 round after critically hitting with two Intensified Shocking Grasps. He got even more annoyed when it started occuring more frequently :P

As far as meaningful effects of crits, Im not sure it HAS to be meaningful. In game and IRL the same injury can have a greater effect on different people. Lose your voice as a technician/programmer and you can carry on for the most part. Lose it as a lecturer or speaker and youve got a big problem.

Your critically hitting mace has an equal chance of breaking anyones jaw. Fighters shouldnt suddenly get immunity to it just because it wont be as big a deal to them as a wizard.

What Id rather see happen instead is have the crit debuffs apply to various skill checks and the like. Broken arm? Penalty to crafting. Broken jaw/lost voice? Penalty to bluff and diplomacy checks. And so on.

OH god I had nightmares about her stupid keen scimitar/rod of maximsation/intensifed shocking grasp.

But then Wisps. And Golems.

Waffleyone wrote:

In a video game, if every crit is game-changing (silencing a caster), they must happen very rarely or else they break the game. Crits don't have to do that reliably to be meaningful.

I'm very curious what GW's plan is with regards to the length of crit debuffs. I could see them lasting between about a minute and half an hour - any real permanence to the effects of crits and too many of them become too abnoxious.

It needs to still feel impactful. Especially if the crit ranges/multipliers of weapons are somehow brought over. I mean who didnt enjoy fighting with a scythe for the x4 crit?

What would be interesting, if you had the OPTION of choosing hthe different effects that could occur for your chosen weapon, with particular debuffs only usable on particular weapons/damage types.

Using the ole x4 scythe for example, maybe it could have something excessive, like 'sever limb' or 'sever tendon/artery', while a longsword might only have 'remove ear' or 'blind one eye'

Then for the crit chance, you could assign more of them, each time another crit type is added it broadens the possible crit range.

Goblin Squad Member

I wonder whether our characters starting unblemeshed might over time become scarred?

Goblin Squad Member

Nihimon wrote:
@Oberyn Corvus, I love where you're going with this. I don't know how technically challenging it would be, but I would love to see a game with much more attention paid to character states. Things like "soaking wet", "well fed", "hot", "cold"... I think it would be great to see a game that really developed that.

+1

Goblin Squad Member

Being wrote:
I wonder whether our characters starting unblemeshed might over time become scarred?

In STO I was able to age my character, give him scars and even an eye patch to simulate the length and physically demanding aspects of his career. I then retired him, and had his First Officer take command, changing crew in some cases and fittings of the ship and function to match his own profession and approach.

On a sand box MMO designed for just one character to last for years, I would hope that we have same tools.

Goblin Squad Member

I find myself on both sides of the damage issue. I am firmly against one shot kills. I do however, like to see the use of shield blocks and disarms, some variation in damage per blow (more spikey combat versus more wavy combat) and crits the way they have them planned (long term debuff or "injuries" versus huge damage spikes).

I also want fights to be more a battle of attrition than short burst fights. There will be some burst damage, yes, especially at the beginning of a fight after a suprise attack. But the "victim" should have a chance to defend themselves for at least a few combat rounds.

It is never fun for the victim to be killed instantly. That is a good way to lose a paying customer.

Goblin Squad Member

Though I think I recall Ryan stating that he didn't have in interest in creating the whole secondary system that it would require, I wish there were a way to do subdual rather than combat that always ended in death.

As I look at various effects suggested fro criticals, I think back to the old critical hit charts I used to use in D&D. A large number of them included knocking people unconscious.

Goblin Squad Member

Hobs the Short wrote:

Though I think I recall Ryan stating that he didn't have in interest in creating the whole secondary system that it would require, I wish there were a way to do subdual rather than combat that always ended in death.

As I look at various effects suggested fro criticals, I think back to the old critical hit charts I used to use in D&D. A large number of them included knocking people unconscious.

Two things about not wanting to create a sub system:

1. Dungeons and Dragons Online has the 0 to -10 bleed out, which mechanically can't be that if different.

2. It is easily 14 - 18 months away until Early Enrollment.

Goblin Squad Member

Hardin Steele wrote:
...I also want fights to be more a battle of attrition than short burst fights. There will be some burst damage, yes, especially at the beginning of a fight after a suprise attack. But the "victim" should have a chance to defend themselves for at least a few combat rounds...

I suspect you weren't thinking of combat with storm giants, which would likely tend to hit pretty hard.

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