Legality Clarification


Pathfinder Society

Shadow Lodge

so we all know that in order to use a Feat / trait ect from additional resources you must own the book

My question stems from the moving of Boon Companion from Seeker of Secrets to the Animal Archive

as I have yet to get my hands on the Animal Archive I must rely on the SRD for definitions ect.

the Wording between the 2 books is Minuscule

Seeker of Secrets - "to a maximum Bonus equal to your character level"

Animal Archive (Via SRD) - "to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level"

I understand that nothing in Archive is legal for PFS until this coming week...

I also well understand that the most recent printing of a feat, trait ect. supersedes the previous but for those of us who may have bought seeker just for boon companion suddenly those peoples cost raises by 1/3rd for something they already had that was legal

my question is if we already own Seeker of Secrets ... will ownership of this book suffice for legality to use Boon Companion ?


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Wraith235 wrote:

so we all know that in order to use a Feat / trait ect from additional resources you must own the book

My question stems from the moving of Boon Companion from Seeker of Secrets to the Animal Archive

as I have yet to get my hands on the Animal Archive I must rely on the SRD for definitions ect.

the Wording between the 2 books is Minuscule

Seeker of Secrets - "to a maximum Bonus equal to your character level"

Animal Archive (Via SRD) - "to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level"

I understand that nothing in Archive is legal for PFS until this coming week...

I also well understand that the most recent printing of a feat, trait ect. supersedes the previous but for those of us who may have bought seeker just for boon companion suddenly those peoples cost raises by 1/3rd for something they already had that was legal

my question is if we already own Seeker of Secrets ... will ownership of this book suffice for legality to use Boon Companion ?

I am not at all in any position to make an official stance, but this same issue applies to anything in ultimate equipment that existed before. It has not come up for that book, so i don't think it would come up with this one either.

So yes owning the old copy counts as having a source in order to legally use it, but you must use the wording of boon companion in animal archive in order to use it. that is what i think the official stance would be.

Shadow Lodge

So long as the additional resources continue to say "Everything in this book is legal for play with the following notes." under seeker of secrets, I doubt they will remove 1 feat that simply had it's errata applied to it's wording.

That being said, Animal Archive is a great book.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

As long as the new wording doesn't change anything mechanically (and from what you posted it seems to just be more clear wording not mechanically different), then the old book should suffice (unless Additional Resources change for Seekers of Secrets).

Shadow Lodge

I'm hoping that's the case ...but as I said atm I only have the srd to go off of

And for the record this isn't something that will apply to me ...yet ....but I have a close friend whom it will potentially affect

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Wraith235 wrote:

I'm hoping that's the case ...but as I said atm I only have the srd to go off of

Please don't use the d20PFSRD as your source.

Shadow Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

I'm hoping that's the case ...but as I said atm I only have the srd to go off of

Please don't use the d20PFSRD as your source.

Allow me to rephrase ...as I have not been able to look at a physical animal archive yet ...and I own seeker ....the srd is the only text I have to go off of for comparison

I apologize for my poor choice of words ....its been a long week and its not over yet

Shadow Lodge

the text you quoted is in atleast the pdf version of animal archive, however i recall a developer post that made the text change to seekers first also the text still isn't right, it should say druid or wizard level, as you don't use druid level for familiars

Shadow Lodge

Andrew Christian wrote:
Wraith235 wrote:

I'm hoping that's the case ...but as I said atm I only have the srd to go off of

Please don't use the d20PFSRD as your source.

I don't know why you have such a hate-on for d20pfsrd.com and HeroLab, but you're being very hostile to two very useful player resources. d20pfsrd.com is, usually, at least as accurate as the official PRD and there is nothing verboten about consulting it away from the table for players or judges. HeroLab is, as well, an invaluable resource from both the player and judge perspective, and is not nearly as fraught with errors as you seem to want to believe.

As long as you own the additional resource, you are PFS legal. As long as you use common sense, HeroLab and the PRDs are extremely useful (just not as a rules source). I'm asking you to please stop hating on both products.

Silver Crusade 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵⦵ Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

Mystic Lemur wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:


Please don't use the d20PFSRD as your source.

As long as you own the additional resource, you are PFS legal. As long as you use common sense, HeroLab and the PRDs are extremely useful (just not as a rules source). I'm asking you to please stop hating on both products.

MysticLemur, you are absolutely correct, however...

Andrew and I don't always see eye-to-eye (mostly because I'm much taller, but that's another thing entirely), but on this (minus any of his vitriol) I have to agree with him.

d20pfsrd.com is an amazing site, true, but since they're started selling products I've been noticing that text from official Paizo products has been changed in some of their entries. Since I'm not an encyclopedia, I wouldn't be able to automatically recognize one of these alterations if I came across it at random (I am aware of it because I went looking for specific things twice now, only to find that they had been changed on the d20pfsrd site from how they were published by paizo), and the fact that I've verified it for more than one instance means I can no longer recommend it as a reference for PFS players.

The Archives of Nethys, despite having no search function, is my personal go-to html site for looking things up.

As for HeroLab, I refuse to shell out that much money for something I can do with things I already own, so I can't comment for or against on that.

Shadow Lodge

That's alright. I need to apologize to Andrew anyway. The things he has said about HeroLab and d20pfsrd are probably not meant the way I take them. Benefit of the doubt, and so forth. I probably shouldn't come on the boards when I'm having trouble sleeping. ;)

And I haven't noticed any recent change in quality with d20pfsrd. I'll be more careful going forward, however. I like (liked?) the fact that they incorporate errata, FAQ, and designer clarification in the information, but if they're just changing things willy nilly, then I'll have to stop using them as a reference.

5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

d20pfsrd.com is an amazing site, true, but since they're started selling products I've been noticing that text from official Paizo products has been changed in some of their entries

-Because they can no longer use copyrighted material like "the dawnflower" for say "dawnflower dervish". They have to use a more generic, non copywrited term "dessert dervish"


Quote:

-Because they can no longer use copyrighted material like "the dawnflower" for say "dawnflower dervish". They have to use a more generic, non copywrited term "dessert dervish"

I think you meant "dessert danish".

Lantern Lodge

hogarth wrote:
Quote:

-Because they can no longer use copyrighted material like "the dawnflower" for say "dawnflower dervish". They have to use a more generic, non copywrited term "dessert dervish"

I think you meant "dessert danish".

Or maybe desert danish.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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No vitriol. I print out the abilities gear and spells from hero lab, and largely use that resource, along with the PRD app for my tablet. But I also have all the PDFs on my tablet as well. Hero lab is notorious for allowing things it shouldn't (I.e. multiple archetypes) and d20PFSRD has 3rd party stuff. The first time I had someone bring a character to a gameday with 3rd party stuff they found on that site, I decided to actively suggest not using it. But no vitriol.

Sovereign Court

I have not used Hero Lab, but very often do I hear people complaining that their program didn't add in a bonus or subtract a penalty or incorporate this or that... Honestly, I don't see why people use it. But I'd personally rather do it manually. It's just how I'm geared.

Oh, and dessert danish sounds wonderful!

Grand Lodge 4/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Sior wrote:
I have not used Hero Lab, but very often do I hear people complaining that their program didn't add in a bonus or subtract a penalty or incorporate this or that... Honestly, I don't see why people use it. But I'd personally rather do it manually. It's just how I'm geared.

To be fair, HeroLab is a HUGE application incorporating the text both narratively and mechanically of hundreds of Paizo books and countless thousands of pages of material. To say they will not get the occasional "glitch" is unreasonable. Some of the most loved games, played by millions of people have errors and glitches. I have been using HL almost since it launched and have nearly all of the Pathfinder data expansions and it is accurate at least 99.9% of the time. Does it have errors? Sure, but in my experience, it makes fewer errors on average than hand-written character sheets.

IMO, HeroLab is a great tool for players who know the rules of the game to quickly and accurately double-check their builds and to "suggest" new feats, spells, etc. to enhance an existing build. The problem is that many players who use it do not know the game rules thoroughly enough to recognize when a minor error occurs. They also tend not to notice the various settings that can be toggled to allow options otherwise banned from PFS.

I think its similar in manner to teaching math. You don't start by giving students a calculator. First, they learn the fundamentals of additional/subtraction/etc., and then you teach them the tools to make it easier.

The Exchange

Sior wrote:

I have not used Hero Lab, but very often do I hear people complaining that their program didn't add in a bonus or subtract a penalty or incorporate this or that... Honestly, I don't see why people use it. But I'd personally rather do it manually. It's just how I'm geared.

Oh, and dessert danish sounds wonderful!

Herolab is certainly dangerous for people who just blindly trust it, but it gets things right 99% of the time. it has a great search function for magic items, traits, feats ect.

you can adjust literally anything you want by adding adjustments on the fly. extra skill points, extra class skills, + or -.

I have personally reported 8 or 9 bugs on things that weren't calculating correctly.

Herolab is a tool, and an excellently efficient one, BUT you still have to know your character, it's not a replacement for humans :)

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