
RadiantSophia |

I loved the Centari and Londo in particular... that was a character with "character". Next favorite were G'kar then Gerabaldi and Ivonova. I like Sheridan too but just wasnt as interested in his character. Now, on the other hand, I disliked Delen with much vigor...
I actually like season one Delen, then, after her metamorphosis, she gets all mushy.

RadiantSophia |

Excuse me, since I don't remember the particular episode. Was this during the time period where Babylon 5 had segregated from the Earth government? Because in this case the command structure really doesn't apply that much anymore. Sheridan even stopped wearing his uniform for a while, before getting issued his new one. From Delenn.
Stops wearing uniform at the end of Severed Dreams (3/10).
Gets new uniform at the end of Ceremonies of Light and Dark (3/11).Isn't wearing uniform for 1 episode.

Werthead |

It was, however, the first American show to really do a series-long story arc. Most of the other US shows you mentioned didn't really have that, to include Buffy (seasonal arcs, but largely unrelated to each other). In fact, I don't think US TV would really have another example until Lost.
Obscurity doesn't necessarily mean that something can't be massively influential. H. P. Lovecraft's popularity would be hard pressed to be described as anything but obscure. But because some of his fans also became writers themselves, his...
Agreed on the influence part, but certainly other US shows had story arcs and even storylines spanning seasons. JMS himself has said that one of the biggest influences on the show was the structure of HILL STREET BLUES, which would have season-spanning storylines, multi-episode storylines and then crime-of-the-week stories contained within one episode. An episode like Signs and Portents from Season 1 replicates that structure quite well.
BABYLON 5's biggest failure in the influence part is in how few shows that followed it used the 'pre-planned' approach. DARK SKIES, INVASION and AMERICAN GOTHIC were all cancelled after one season. LOST allegeld pre-planned its finale three years ahead of time but it was still a damp squib. The only really successful pre-planned series have been AVATAR: THE LAST AIRBENDER and GAME OF THRONES (and the latter has the benefit of being based on a series of books), and to a lesser extent THE WIRE, though that was not pre-planned in as much detail.
Probably my biggest criticism of the show is that it fell victim to the same problem that most Star Trek shows have: the main characters have to be involved in EVERYTHING, even when someone else would be a more logical choice. Although it's admittedly not nearly as bad about this at Trek.
True, but they did lampshade this part. Sinclair going out personally on combat missions - the equivalent of a US aircraft carrier captain jumping into a fighter and roaring off - was criticised by other characters throughout the show, most notably Garialdi in Season 1, as was his tendency to confront the villain of the week personally in combat rather than sending twenty security guards to do it instead. Sheridan is noticeably a lot more sensible and only goes out in a fighter once (and is apparently a requirement to keep his flight pay).
Once the main characters become involved the 'counter-conspiracy' storyline halfway through Season 2, it becomes more logical why they are the ones who get involved in everything.

jemstone |

Which in no way changes the command structure of Earthforce. I served at RAF Alconbury for three years. Pretty sure the entire thing was provided to us by the UK government. That doesn't mean that the Wing Commander left anyone from the UK in charge when he wasn't around. Hell, Delenn wasn't even a military member of her own race...she was a politician and a diplomat.
Except you're forgetting that for the bulk of the show, Delenn almost literally was the Minbari government, in that she was the head of the Grey Council, which means that even though she was Religious Caste, the entirety of the forces of Minbar were at her beck and call, and she was also leading The Rangers.
So while I can absolutely back you on the "that doesn't change the command structure of Earthforce," given that B5 was a joint venture between Earth and Minbar, it makes sense that when the Earthly leadership isn't around, the Minbar leadership would take over.

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I do love B5 and especially the transformation of G'Kar over the course of the 5 years it ran. Of course, he did become one of my favorite characters, though in S1 and a good bit of S2 he did have the villain vibe going on.
As to S5, yeah, it wasn't the greatest, but it did have its moments.
It may be time to break out the DVDs again (I really need to find a replacement of S1 as one of the disks is screwed up and one of the eps is basically unwatchable).

XperimentalDM |

As dissapointing as Season 5 was compared to 2-4, I still glad they made it.
For that matter, I wish Crusade had stayed longer. I just started to get invested in some of the characters but they only made what 12 epsiodes?
It did give us Day of the Dead, and A view from the gallery which are two of my favorite episodes. And the scene near the end of the season when Garibaldi address the Board of Edgers Industries. Gold.

XperimentalDM |

I do love B5 and especially the transformation of G'Kar over the course of the 5 years it ran. Of course, he did become one of my favorite characters, though in S1 and a good bit of S2 he did have the villain vibe going on.
As to S5, yeah, it wasn't the greatest, but it did have its moments.
It may be time to break out the DVDs again (I really need to find a replacement of S1 as one of the disks is screwed up and one of the eps is basically unwatchable).
Andreas Katsulas was amazing. G'kar has some of my favorite dialogue. Everything he says just seems more important (even the Swedish meatballs).
Londos assorted rises and falls are also a favorite of mine. Actually a bit of how I feel about my Cheliax faction PFS character ("Once I had all the choices I could ask for and none of the power. Now I have all the power and no choices at all" or something like that.) For story character development they are two of my favorites.My wife started running a B5 game with the d20 book. Given the title of this thread I will leave once final quote.
Babylon 5 was the last of the Babylon stations. There would never be another. It changed the future, and it changed us. It taught us that we had to create the future, or others will do it for us. It showed us that we have to care for each other, because if we don't, who will? And that true strength sometimes comes from the most unlikely places. Mostly, though, I think it gave us hope that there can always be new beginnings, even for people like us.

PsychoticWarrior |
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G'Kar (after cutting his own hand and squeezing out drops of blood) Dead! Dead! Dead! Dead! Dead! How do you apologize to them?
Vir Cotto: I can't.
G'Kar: Then I cannot forgive.
One of my favourite scenes from TV in general and B5 in particular. I honestly thought G'Kar was going to kill Vir when he pulled out that dagger.

XperimentalDM |

B-5 was a good show. Better after season 1. I thought season 1 was a bit... slow. As for characters, I liked Londo, Garibaldi, and G'Kar, but Vir Kotto was my favorite in the end. He turned out... well.
Heh like when he chops up the Drazi fruit cart in season 5 with Londo's dueling sword.
Londo:"Now he is ready to be ambasador!"
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@PsychoticWolf: from one of my favorite episodes, "Comes the Inquisitor". A powerful scene, indeed.
Another great quote from that episode:
And it is on the basis of that quote that I've come to judge heroes.
@ R Chance: The growth of Vir Cotto throughout the series was great to watch. Just as great was the rise and fall of Lennier.
I loved Lennier. But when he told Marcus in "Ceremonies of Light and Dark"
I knew then that the road was going to be a long, dark one for him and that in the end, he was destined to fail. Even Marcus looked at him sideways.

Samnell |

It was probably to cut down on extra characters, but it seemed a bit odd to have the military commander of B5 *also* serving as Earth's de facto ambassador to the other races in council. Probably for the best. If the ambassador and the commander of the station ended up disagreeing, it would have been yet another source of conflict, and the show hardly needed more conflict, with all the factions going on!
I'm fuzzy on how fast communication was supposed to be between star systems, but Royal Navy captains used to have that role. Most of the time back in the Age of Sail, they were the British Empire personally wherever they went beyond European waters. It makes a lot of sense given they didn't have the option of phoning home for advice and since they were captains the state already trusted them to act independently for extended periods of time.
One imagines EarthGov gave them some diplomatic training, though probably not for the kind if diplomacy Sheridan & Delenn got up to. But imagine those classes:
"Now when she comes out of the cocoon, you need to start holding her hand more often."

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Do you remember the scene between Londo and Vir, where Vir was complaining that Londo's machinations could have got Vir killed?
'Kill? You're not important enough to kill!'
Sheridan was fond of the phrase 'straight to Hell!' Since then I've wanted to play a more PG-rated character that cursed his enemies to go 'straight to Heck!'

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3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Two pages and no one has trotted this out???
Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out!

The 8th Dwarf |

Delenn was originaly meant to be androgynous, and the viewer was meant to not be able to work out Delenns gender... JMS could not find the voice synth technology to make it work.
Was Ivanova's and Talia's relationship one of the first positive TV scifi lesbian relationships even though it ended very tragically.
I felt so bad for Ivanova and Talia I think there was a tear in my eye..
Edit: added TV for clarifications

XperimentalDM |

Set wrote:It was probably to cut down on extra characters, but it seemed a bit odd to have the military commander of B5 *also* serving as Earth's de facto ambassador to the other races in council. Probably for the best. If the ambassador and the commander of the station ended up disagreeing, it would have been yet another source of conflict, and the show hardly needed more conflict, with all the factions going on!
I'm fuzzy on how fast communication was supposed to be between star systems, but Royal Navy captains used to have that role. Most of the time back in the Age of Sail, they were the British Empire personally wherever they went beyond European waters. It makes a lot of sense given they didn't have the option of phoning home for advice and since they were captains the state already trusted them to act independently for extended periods of time.
One imagines EarthGov gave them some diplomatic training, though probably not for the kind if diplomacy Sheridan & Delenn got up to. But imagine those classes:
"Now when she comes out of the cocoon, you need to start holding her hand more often."
Well as we know Star furies move at the speed of plot, communications likely use the same technology.

XperimentalDM |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

Two pages and no one has trotted this out???
Ivanova is always right. I will listen to Ivanova. I will not ignore Ivanova's recommendations. Ivanova is God. And if this ever happens again, Ivanova will personally rip your lungs out!
Ah the Babylon 5 Mantra.
What about this one"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me. "

XperimentalDM |

Delenn was originaly meant to be androgynous, and the viewer was meant to not be able to work out Delenns gender... JMS could not find the voice synth technology to make it work.
Was Ivanova's and Talia's relationship one of the first positive TV scifi lesbian relationships even though it ended very tragically.
I felt so bad for Ivanova and Talia I think there was a tear in my eye..
Edit: added TV for clarifications
Yeah apparently that is why the makeup looks the way it does in the pilot. I thought i read somewhere they considered some kind of voice modulation, but as you said it was not satisfactory.

MMCJawa |

"Who am I? I am Susan Ivanova, Commander. Daughter of Andre and Sophie Ivanov. I am the right hand of vengeance and the boot that is going to kick your sorry ass all the way back to Earth, sweetheart! I am death incarnate, and the last living thing that you will ever see. God sent me. "
Oh god that was one of the most epic speeches I have seen on television...was about to post it but you beat me to the punch.

Werthead |

It was probably to cut down on extra characters, but it seemed a bit odd to have the military commander of B5 *also* serving as Earth's de facto ambassador to the other races in council. Probably for the best. If the ambassador and the commander of the station ended up disagreeing, it would have been yet another source of conflict, and the show hardly needed more conflict, with all the factions going on!
In the original pilot script, a reference is made to the fact that there is a dedicated Earth ambassador on Babylon 5, but he was severely ill and Sinclair was filling in for him during Kosh's arrival. For the series proper they just dropped the idea for reasons of cost and clarity.
My wife started running a B5 game with the d20 book. Given the title of this thread I will leave once final quote.
That was actually a really good game, from the little my group played of it (1 session). It employed the d20 system in a way I hadn't seen before, really oriented around roleplaying, diplomacy and problem-solving. Space combat was good fun, but personal combat was extremely lethal due to them removing HP advancement by die for gaining levels (you only got a couple of HP per level and that was it).
My biggest regret was that they didn't do what they said they'd considered in the introduction, namely ripping levels out of the system altogether. That would have been interesting.
Sheridan, wondering how to delicately break the news to a White Star pilot that Sheridan was ordering him to undertake a suicide mission:
Ha. And he was talking to Bryan Cranston just before he became a star thanks to MALCOLM IN THE MIDDLE (and now BREAKING BAD). It's fun to sometimes spot these big actors in B5 at another point in their career.
I'm fuzzy on how fast communication was supposed to be between star systems,
Gold Channel communications used tachyons, so were instantaneous across multiple light-years. It was later revealed this was highly energy-intensive (which B5, with its massive stationary fusion reactors, didn't have a problem with but was an issue for starships on the move) and extremely expensive, but the ambassadors had access to it at all times.
Delenn was originaly meant to be androgynous, and the viewer was meant to not be able to work out Delenns gender... JMS could not find the voice synth technology to make it work.
She was actually supposed to be straight-up male and would have changed sex as well as race in the chrysalis. This would have been a braver decision since she would have still gotten into a relationship (with Sinclair in the original plan), but the technology wasn't up to it and Mira Furlan was severely annoyed when she found out about it (which she did only in the make-up chair, reportedly), so they ditched it.
Was Ivanova's and Talia's relationship one of the first positive TV scifi lesbian relationships even though it ended very tragically.
It was, but JMS was annoyed because it didn't go as far as they'd planned. Originally Ivanova and Talia would actually have gotten involved over the course of several episodes or maybe a whole season, but Andrea Thompson leaving the show (at relatively short notice) cut that short. It did play into the Ivanova's disastrous love life subplot though.

Wyrd_Wik |

Great show and as others have mentioned had a big influence on my GMing style and planning campaigns. Curse of the Crimson Throne particularly ended up with a B5 feel. Zellara's prophecies cribbed a bit from the show, I even recall giving a fantasy version of the story about the Coventry bombing and Churchill as Zellara's advice not to let on about what they know about their enemies.
As for season 5, you know I actually quite liked it, didn't work all the time but it did give the show a proper send off and not an abrupt end. I thought Crusade had potential but it never had time to develop.
Happy 20th B5, I'll have to give some of the old episodes a watch now!

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Sheridan, wondering how to delicately break the news to a White Star pilot that Sheridan was ordering him to undertake a suicide mission:
'Er...are you a married man...?'
Sheridan became noticeably more ruthless and detached following his return form death. It made me think of that exchange from James Blish's "Cities In Flight."
"You ARE idealists, you have the necessary ruthlessness."
"That's what it takes."

magnuskn |

My shoes are too tight, but it doesn't matter, because I have forgotten how to dance. - Londo
No other Sci-Fi show ever been able cram so much pathos in just one sentence as B5 could.
Yeah, I think that remains my favorite sentence of the show, too. It still manages to make my chest cramp up with sadness whenever I read/hear it.

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All this love for B4 and no mention of Marcus!
"We are Rangers.
We walk in the dark places no others will enter.
We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass.
We live for the One, we die for the One."
When I was younger I wanted to grow long hair to be more like Marcus (sadly my hair curled too much for that). His battle with Neroon is so epic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LxvxubIsaM

Chronocypher |
2 people marked this as a favorite. |

All this love for B4 and no mention of Marcus!
"We are Rangers.
We walk in the dark places no others will enter.
We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass.
We live for the One, we die for the One."When I was younger I wanted to grow long hair to be more like Marcus (sadly my hair curled too much for that). His battle with Neroon is so epic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LxvxubIsaM
I love the exchange afterword when Neroon comes to visit him in MedLab:
Marcus Cole: The next time - the next time you want a revelation - could you possibly find a way - that isn't quite so - uncomfortable?

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1 person marked this as a favorite. |

All this love for B4 and no mention of Marcus!
"We are Rangers.
We walk in the dark places no others will enter.
We stand on the bridge, and no one may pass.
We live for the One, we die for the One."When I was younger I wanted to grow long hair to be more like Marcus (sadly my hair curled too much for that). His battle with Neroon is so epic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LxvxubIsaM
*cough*I just did*cough*
I knew I couldn't get my hair long, so I compensated with the beard as close as I could make it.
Probably my favorite character in fiction ever (followed closely by Sparhawk)

Black Dougal |

Been watching the show all over..seasons 2 to 4 that is:
some things I only really notice now that bug me:
Anna Sheriden allowed to wander into the commanders room while he was sleeping..with no one from security stopping her..
Talia winters gets exposed as a pscyo cop sleeper and takes a shot that almost hits Sheriden..she gets disarmed but later is shown packing her stuff in her quarters with no guards in sight..
I can see how its works for the drama, but suspension of disbelief is more difficult for me now than 20 years ago.

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Anna Sheriden allowed to wander into the commanders room while he was sleeping..with no one from security stopping her..

Grey Lensman |
Talia winters gets exposed as a pscyo cop sleeper and takes a shot that almost hits Sheriden..she gets disarmed but later is shown packing her stuff in her quarters with no guards in sight..
Would you want guards nearby a departing telepath? Who knows if the new Talia would have tried anything nasty, after all, she was more powerful than she was registered as due to previous events.

Werthead |

One of my fondest memories is getting to go to Babcom '96 in London and seeing most of the cast on stage. It was the weekend after 'Severed Dreams' had aired for very first time, so all the fans were on a real high. Mira Furlan re-enacted her speech, "Be somewhere else," on stage to great applause. Jason Carter and Richard Biggs got into a mock-fight on stage about the correct use of the English language (which Carter pretty much won: "What's the NAME of the language you are speaking?"). Peter Jurasik pulled out a chair and set in it for half an hour whilst the make-up guys transformed him into Londo live on-stage before standing up and doing an impromptu Q&A/half-comedy-stand-up routine in full Londo make-up. Claudia Christian pointblank refused to re-enact the 'Lumati sex-dance' live on stage and had a seemingly-endless number of amusing ways of shooting down the occasional slightly creeperish stalker questions she got from the audience.
There was also a great moment when proceedings were interrupted by the organisers to announce a football result (England vs. Holland in Euro '96, which England had just won). There was a lot of cheering and Peter Jurasik screamed, "IT'S A SOCCER RIOT!" in mock panic. There was also a very generic question about how the actors were enjoying their time in England and every single actor gushed about how awesome it was. The person at the end of the line was Andreas Katsulas, and he deadpanned, "This is a cold and inhospitable country," in his full G'Kar-at-his-most-portentious voice. Brought the house down.
Jerry Doyle and Andreas Thompson (then married) did a two-person stage show thing which was quite entertaining. Doyle was probably the actor most engaged with the fanbase and tended to know things the other actors didn't (such as the relationship between the TV show and comic, and was one of the few actors able to identify individual episodes by name), which made him popular for the fans to talk to about the arc plot and so forth. Doyle was very fast on his feet, smoothly put down the odd heckle and was full of humourous anecdotes. I'm not surprised he's become a radio show host. Andrea Thompson was also quite funny, but a lot more laconic. She was also clearly upset at having had to leave the show, but she'd been getting quite a few job offers and having to turn them down because of B5, but was only appearing in a few episodes of that per year. When they weren't able to sort out a better deal (which I gather would have been her coming back as a recurring guest star rather than a regular, which would have been too expensive, or her getting more episodes, which wasn't compatible with JMS's plan) she decided to leave. However, she was up for coming back to round off Talia's story arc and seemed genuinely perplexed why that hadn't happened.
Great memories. The camradarie between the castmembers was genuinely impressive and they seemed to really love making the show. I think that came through on screen quite well. And of course sad that two of the people there are no longer with us.