My Paladin is only level 4, but for my fifth level, I'm thinking that I want to grab a second class.
My first thought was Fighter, but I'm not really sure why...
I want to increase my damage output, AC is nice, but we have an Oracle in the party who handles most of our HP needs, and I've got Lay on Hands 6 times a day right now
What multiclass options are viable for a low-ish level Paladin?
Or is it in my best interests to keep leveling Paladin?
Looking at everything a Paladin gets after Level 4, I'm just not motivated to continue leveling as one.
RP wise, I'd obviously still be a Paladin who's just broadening his skill set.
Fighter: lots of feats, armor- and weapon training
Ranger: Combat styles and wilderness skills (AC will be too weak to matter)
Cavalier: nice overall set of abilities that can work out rather paladinfriendly. After level 4 your mount can get to full char level via horsemaster feat.
Inquisitor: no full BAB but another set of devine abilities.
What is your fighting style? Do you want a broader set of abilities overall or just become more fighty? With only I'm a plala what should I multiclass into it's hard to help properly.
Are you an Archer Paladin, Two-Hander or Classic Sword and Shield?
jedi.jesse, why are you disinterested in leveling as a paladin after 4?
Paladins are extremely powerful at higher levels. Some people think they are overly powerful. The damage they can pump out can be truly insane.
Since you asked if it is in your best interests to keep leveling the answer is: YES.
Lay on Hands is not to heal others, it is to keep yourself healed. In a couple levels you will be extremely happy you have it in addition to the Oracle. The damage potential of BBEGs can get pretty extreme.
Swift action spells some of which are quite powerful.
Higher Smite Evil damage output.
Higher healing via Lay on Hands (making you harder to kill)
More powerful Mercies
Divine Bond: The weapon option is very very nice. It saves you a lot of money and it stacks with your weapon's existing bonuses up to +5 enhancement and +10 overall.
Aura of Resolve is ok but not great. Depending on campaign consider Oath against Fiends.
Aura of Justice is pure gold. 10rounds of Smite evil for each ally? Yes please! Perfect against BBEGs.
Aura of Faith is ok but can be great in the right situations.
Finally, Aura of Righteousness and Holy Champion are excellent although many people dislike the automatic banishmentvia Holy Champion. If you play to level 20 consider talking your GM into making the banishment optional.
What is your build? 2handed? Sword and Board? What are your ability scores? What are your feats?
- Gauss
Two-Handed
current feats are Power Attack, Cleave, and Weapon Focus(Greatsword) [He's human]
STR 19, DEX 17, CON 15, INT 15, WIS 11, CHA 18
I'm pretty sure the GM will allow anything from any source...probably even D&D 3.5
I like swinging my sword, but having options in combat seems fun
I was leaning toward Fighter just for all the feats
I don't know very much about Rangers, and even less about Cavaliers and Inquisitors...I'll have to look more into those
Mercies don't seem extremely useful in the campaign, the GM hasn't (so far ) been using those conditions against us.
Divine Bond does look pretty good, though I'm not sure...how many times per day can that be used?
and the Fighter offers Weapon Training which provides similar benefits
and I'll have to think more about Aura of Justice (that IS awesome) and Aura of Faith...
Admittedly, I'm still fairly new to Pathfinder...i've only been in four or five campaigns and only one of them made it past level 12 (though we got there VERY quickly)
One level Sorcerer, then 7 levels of Dragon Disciple for 3rd level spells, then Eldritch Knight.
Grants you: +4 AC bonus, +4 strength, +2 Con, blindsense, breathweapon, bite attack, decent spell casting (not overly impressive, but good enough for a few buffs with still spell), bonus feats (draconic bloodline and Eldritch Knight), weapon specialisation at EK level 4 and a few points of extra damage with Arcane Strike.
Your BAB suffers a bit, but the extra strength and (on higher levels) buffs like Heroism should totally make up for it.
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I think you are missing the fact that Divine Bond and Weapon Training are both scaling abilities. If you are going to go with one..go with ONE.
Level 5: 1/day +1 enhancement which can be used for (pick one): +1 enhancement, defending, flaming, keen, and merciful. Of these the best three are +1 enhancement, flaming, and keen. Merciful is circumstantial.
Level 8: 1/day +2 enhancement which can be used for (pick one or pick two of the above): +2 enhancement, Axiomatic, Disruption, Flaming Burst, Holy,
Level 9: 2/day
Level 11: 2/day +3 enhancement which can be used for: +3 enhancement, Speed, OR pick one from level 5 and one from level 8, OR pick three from level 5
Level 13: 3/day
Level 14: 3/day +4 enhancement which can be used for: +4 enhancement, Brilliant Energy, OR Pick one from level 11 and one from level 5, OR pick two from level 8 OR pick four from level 5.
At levels 17 and 20 you get another +1 effective enhancement bonus (total +6) and at level 17 you get 4/day.
Divine Bond Summary: it saves you up to +6 in enhancement bonuses.
Assuming you have a +4 weapon that saves you 168,000gp at level 20 for 80minutes per day. That is a LOT of gold. That gold can be spent elsewhere (heck, it can pay for a +5 inherent strength bonus and then some
Level 5: +1attack/damage
Level 9: +2attack/damage
Level 13: +3attack/damage
Level 17: +4attack/damage
With a Gloves of Dueling (15,000gp): +6attack/damage
So, is the attack/damage nice? Yup. Is it worth everything else you lose? I dont think so.
You lose a lot of lay on hands. This is a major deal.
1st:
Grace (swift, no AoOs for movement)
Hero's Defiance (immediate, use a Lay on Hands when you go negative, gain an extra D6 of healing)
Divine favor (standard, +1 luck bonus to attack/damage per 3 levels, max +3)
2nd:
Litany of Righteousness (swift, for 1 round one evil target takes double damage from you and maybe from others, no save!)
Paladin's Sacrifice (immediate, you take an ally's damage/bad effect upon yourself, use to save them)
3rd:
Burst of Speed (swift, +10move, ignore movement AoOs, mvoe through enemies larger than you)
Deadly Juggernaut (standard, gain +1attack/damage and DR2/- for each enemy you kill)
Litany of Escape (swift, teleport ally out of a grapple, situational)
4th:
King's Castle (standard, very useful to get you somewhere quick)
Litany of Vengance (swift, +5damage by anyone hitting target)
Resounding Blow (swift, weapon gains +1d6 sonic damage)
There may be other nice spells I missed but I think these are enough. They are some very nice spells and many of them are swift or immediate.
The four main reasons for advancing as a paladin: Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, Divine Bond, and Spells.
Smite evil scales by level and will rip through a BBEG so fast the GM will wonder what even happened to the BBEG.
Lay on Hands scales by level and will be a major reason you do not die when the Oracle's healing is not enough. Being able to heal yourself as a swift action while still pounding on the enemy will be just enough to keep you going.
Divine Bond is a great money saver. Spend that money elsewhere.
Spells, as I have shown there are a number of spells which are very nice.
Round 1: Smite Evil (swift) on BBEG. Activate Divine Bond (Holy)
Round 2: Cast Grace (if BBEG is large), Charge BBEG
Round 3: Litany of Righteousness, Kill BBEG with your utterly ridiculous damage.
At level 8 you should do the following attack/damage
Attack bonus: +8 BAB +6str (+2 belt of strength), -3 Power attack, +4 Smite, +2 enhancement, +1 weapon focus = 18/13
2d6 (sword) +6*1.5(str) +9 (Power Attack) +2 enhancement +2d6 (holy, divine bond) +8 (smite evil) = 2d6+ 2d6 holy +28 damage. Double that for 1 round and you get: 4d6 +4d6 holy +56 damage per hit.
Round 4: clean up the blood.
Note: round 3 becomes round 2 if BBEG moved to you.
If these do not sell you then, perhaps you are not playing in an anti-evil campaign. :)
- Gauss
Blave, I have to disagree with your Sorcerer build. Too much buffing time is required.
Situations where you can pre-buff before a combat are rare. A paladin shines because so many of his spells are swift actions. If a Paladin is buffing for more than 1 round he is spending too much time.
While the breath weapon is nice it is really only nice against massed troops and that the paladin can take out without breaking a sweat anyhow. They will probably not be able to hit him.
The strength is nice, but that strength can be purchased via Inherent bonuses since the Paladin doesnt have to spend quite as much money on his sword.
The hitpoints would take a major hit as well. Even toughness would not make up for it too much.
- Gauss
Blave, I have to disagree with your Sorcerer build. Too much buffing time is required.
Well, you still got a big two-handed weapon, full plate and saves through the roof. Buffs are nice, but the character works extremely well without even a single one. A few of them last more than long enough (Heroism, Overland Flight) and who can say no to a Paladin who can cast haste? But really, the spells are just icyng on the cake. You could just as well go for nothing but utility.
While the breath weapon is nice it is really only nice against massed troops and that the paladin can take out without breaking a sweat anyhow. They will probably not be able to hit him.
It's a nice little blast when you need one. Nothing to write home about, sure. But it's hardly the mainfocus of the build.
The strength is nice, but that strength can be purchased via Inherent bonuses since the Paladin doesnt have to spend quite as much money on his sword.
Depends on the campaign. Not everyone can buy manuals at will. And while you CAN substitute a few enchantments with Divine Bond, who actually does that? As you said yourself: Relying on too many buffs won't exactly improve the Paladin's performance.
The hitpoints would take a major hit as well. Even toughness would not make up for it too much.
Ok, this I don't see at all. Major hit? Why? You only suffer from the single sorcerer level. That's like 2 HP on average. The rest of the HDs are either as good as the paladin's (EK's d10) or even better (DD's d12). You'd only lose the favorite class bonus, but since you get +2 Con...
And don't forget about the Bite. It's pretty nice for Full Attacks, especially when you are smiting the BBEG. Sure, you only get half strength and power attack damage for it, but stuff like Arcane Strike and Smite still apply. With smite, even DR is not an issue.
The build doesn't have the burst damage of a single class paladin but it's more effective when not smiting, and has a better defense and more utility thanks to the sorc spells.
Note that the build is not meant to out-perform a Paladin. It's almost entirely its own thing. The OP said he's not impressed with the paladin so why suggest a build that's "more of the same"? The Pal/DD/EK is a different approach. An Option. Nothing more.
Blave, Action economy.
Either A) the paladin is casting spells to buff himself (such as haste and heroism) when he gets into a fight.
OR B) he casts exactly 1 spell as a standard and then all the rest are swifts. As you will note in my combat example above he burns only one buff round for a significant boost. Everything after that is swift.
Who needs to buy Manuals? There is an Oracle in the group, at level 18 pay him to give you those inherent bonuses. And as I said, the Divine Bond is 1 round of buff time spent..ONLY 1 round.
As for HPs, you are right, I missed the +2con bonus being factored in. I was counting the Favored class bonus loss which IS a significant loss. However, the loss of Lay on Hands is still a major problem.
Who uses Divine Bond? Just about everyone I know who has ever played a paladin. The key is to have a decent perception score so you go in the surprise round. Frankly, I almost always play a character with a decent perception score.
Ultimately, a paladin doesn't need most of that against the lower level mooks (those he isnt going to smite into oblivion). Buffing up a PC to fight lower mooks is only appropriate if they are a second line fighter. Burst damage like the paladin is built for is to take down BBEGs, that should be secondary to taking down mooks.
I believe that the OP wasn't impressed because he does not understand what the paladin does. He has asked questions about things like Divine Bond that indicate he does not understand what they do.
- Gauss
Heroism lasts an hour at the very least. Haste is pretty much the most powerful spell in the game. It's rare that a paladin needs to cast it but having the option is still great in my book. Being able to fly or blast "on demand" without relying on your party's recources when you can't reach your enemy is a big bonus, too.
I'm not saying you should use all your buffs in every combat. That would just be stupid. But casting one or two depending on the situation will be useful in pretty much any combat. And you can even mix it up with offensive or defensive spells as needed.
First round of combat should be a buff (and smite if needed). Then you can just go arcane strike + full attack.
Also, your Paladin will run out of swift action spells very quickly unless you spend a fortune on Pearls of Power or are very high level.
The loss of lay on handy hurts, sure. But +4 AC and Mirror Image/Displacement/Stoneskin if needed should soften the blow.
Not sure how an Oracle would grant you inherent bonuses unless he has Wish as Mystery spell. Might be missing something from UM or UC. I'm not too familiar with those. But anyway, a Wizard can do this at level 17.
Still, that's VERY late game. Near the end of most cmapaigns. I prefer +4 Strength by level 9. And as far as I can tell, that doesn't mean I can't get those Wihes later on.
I never said "Who uses Divine Bond?". I just said I don't think there are many players out there who rely on it instead of getting a highly enchanted weapon (that was what you were thinking of when you said a paladin could save money, right?). Instead, it's used in addition to the enchantment the weapon already has, especially on lower levels.
I appreciate your effords to make the Paladin playable for the OP, and I totally agree with your opinion on a Paladin's power. However, you should not compare my build suggestion to a "regular" paladin. It's not a paladin and that's kind of the point since the OP wanted to Multi-Class. Just think of it as a melee-focused Eldritch Knight.
I have to agree with Gauss. PF penalizes you far too much to multiclass. There are very few situations where your better off dipping into another class or going prestige now. Paladin is also a very solid class that gets better as you progress.
I would caution against dipping. Expecially if your new to Pathfinder.
If you are looking for damage output and AC then stay a paladin. At low levels smite evil is not that big of a deal, but at high levels it is insane. Not only does the damage go up as you level up but you get more of them.
Spells may not seem like a big deal but a paladin has some very good spells. Bless weapon for example is often overlooked. Combine it with smite evil, improved critical and a falchion and you automatically crit on a 15 or higher. Hero's defiance can literally be a life saver. Litany of Righteousness will double the damage you do and can be combined with the above smite evil and bless weapon to triple the damage. Undetectable Alignment means you can operate without being detected by detect good. These are just a few off the top of my head.
The main difference between a paladin and a fighter is the fighter is more consistent with their damage. They can fight all day long vs. anyone and still being doing a lot of damage. The paladin one the other hand does good damage vs. everything but can go nuclear and wipe out the BBEG a limited number of times per day.
Blave,
Why would he need to spend a fortune? Most of the best swift action spells are level 1 and 2. That is 1000 and 4000gp.
You are correct about the Oracle/Miracle issue. For some reason I thought Miracle could do most of what Wish can do. My bad.
The problem with getting that highly enchanted weapon (anything over +4 enchantment) is that by level 20 the extra enchantments are wasted when you use Divine Bond.
- Gauss
Pal 4/ bard 1/ dragon disciple x/ divine scion 1 (for weapon spec and greater).
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Greater Mercy
Your mercy has incredible recuperative properties.
Prerequisites: Cha 13, lay on hands class feature, mercy class feature.
Benefit: When you use your lay on hands ability and the target of that ability does not have any conditions your mercies can remove, it instead heals an additional +1d6 points of damage.
Blave, I really like you're Dragon Disciple/Eldritch Knight idea...that looks fun...I may end up trying that on another character...(maybe 4 Fighter?/1 Sorcerer/5 Dragon Disciple/10 EK? ...just for something different/fun) i'll have to look more into it
I just wouldn't feel like a Paladin at all anymore after doing that
Gauss, I always had planned on picking just Divine Bond or just Figher Weapon Training...I was just comparing the two, but you've really sold me on the idea of continuing leveling as a paladin, and you've got me really excited about it.
I guess I underestimated the power of Smite Evil, and I hadn't seriously considered my spells.
So, I'm going to keep going Paladin, thanks everyone for the input
And Malachi, that's a hot tip on Greater Mercy, i'll keep that in mind
Thanks
jedi.jesse
I'm pretty sure the GM will allow anything from any source...probably even D&D 3.5
mother of god....
screw all other feat ideas, take battle blessing, awesome smite, unsanctioned knowledge, and if your GM lets you the much debated and coveted sowrd of the arcane order featyour stats are incredible, im guessing you rolled those?
Yeah, they were rolled, super lucky
I'll have to ask the GM if he'll let me use any of those...
1 Level dip in Oracle, for Sidestep Secret. Doesn't Matter if there is an oracle in the group already! The boost to the AC is fantastic.
I have to agree with Gauss. PF penalizes you far too much to multiclass. There are very few situations where your better off dipping into another class or going prestige now. Paladin is also a very solid class that gets better as you progress.
I would caution against dipping. Expecially if your new to Pathfinder.
And straight Paladin is just so effective.
I have a Tiefling Paladin that I'm salivating to run in Wrath of the Righteous when it eventually comes out - he's Oath of Vengeance, Oath Against Fiends with a great backstory - and as he levels up he just gets obscenely powerful.
Obviously his LoH's is through the roof (Heals 108 hit points and removes conditions on himself as a swift action up to 28 times/day). Oath of Vengeance means that he essentially has unlimited Smites. Choosing the right Paladin spells can tip the scales from awesome to insane - Bloodsworn Retribution, anyone? Litany of Righteousness for doubling your Smite damage (when its already doubled against some foes), Blessing of Fervor (thank you Oath of Vengeance), Sacrificial Oath, Hero's Defiance...
He's almost utterly unkillable, can lay the smack down on any evil foe and protect his comrades against those who aren't. Holy Vessel let's you enchant your armor and shield with Divine Bond making this as customizable a character as you could want.
My advice is to stick with Paladin and just get a better handle aon all the things it can do - at 4th level you're really on the cusp of greatness for this class.
Here here, I agree. Stay Paladin. My friends halfling Paladin is amazing, BBEG drop like crazy. Naturally we conclude Halflings are overpowered.