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There was a large discussion with my players about changing rounds to last 10 seconds instead of 6. More like a thought experiment really. I thought that the conversation could be fun here, so I bring it to you to think on, and respond, if you'd like:
What happens to Pathfinder's mechanics, balance, etc. when you change rounds to last 10 seconds instead of 6? Is it too powerful? Too restricting? Inconsequential? Could you balance it back? Like making spells last 10 rounds instead of 1 minute?
I am not aware of anything except some duration effects that would be impacted explicitly.
A 1 min/level spell would last 6 rounds/level instead of 10 rounds/level.
Maybe you would need to look at movement by round vs overland movement too.
Otherwise I think the length of a round is purely arbitrary.
The only thing that would change is that effects that last for minutes now last for multiples of 6 rounds instead of multiples of 10 rounds.
Since very few encounters last for more than 6 rounds and even more rarely for more than 12 rounds, this difference wouldn't even matter at all.
Goblins 85, what do your gain by making this change?
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Some of my players said it helps them better conceptualize their character's actions.
We started playing with WEG's DCURPG, which had 10 second rounds. (At least, that's how I remember it!) and it kinda stuck. My players also did the thing where they went outside and tried moving 30 feet in 3 seconds. Even at a very quick pace, it's really hard to do (or maybe we're all just out of shape)! Moving 30 feet in 5 seconds, however, is much easier to do.
I liked it as a brain exercise. Kinda like 'what would the world look like as RAW only?'.
I didn't see any reason to not to if it helps my players enjoy the game, but I thought I might get some thoughts on it to see what the pitfalls would be.
30 feet is ten yards. The average QB in the NFL drops back roughly 10 yards from the line of scrimmage to pass. With another 350 pound man blocking their path, the average pass rush gets to the QB in roughly 3.5 seconds.
That includes a bunch of pushing shoving, dodging, juking and jumping around.
In that same 3.5 seconds, the average wide receiver is about 25 yards (75 feet) downfield.
30 feet in 6 seconds is marching speed, 60 feet in 6 seconds is "double time."
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That sounds like that person took the run feat, and a run action.
Although that probably is the case (especially since the wide reciever is presumably human, and gets an extra feat ;P) I do like that Adamantine Dragon's numbers line up (very roughly) with the 6-second round. I've always assumed that combat, like football, involves a lot of shoving, dodging, etc (which is why characters need at least 25 square feet of space to maneuver in) so the comparison to a pass rush seems particularly apt.
I think the important thing to remember is that D&D characters (or at least PCs) aren't ordinary people, nor do you need to track rounds in everyday situations. If your day job involved a lot of hiking, fighting, running away from giant boulders, and so forth, you could probably cover 30 feet much faster than you can doing whatever it is you do now. A Wizard might only have a strength of 8, but even he is going to be in really good shape, relatively speaking; he has to be, or he would be dead already.
Likewise, when the battle mat comes out and you go into rounds, usually it means that something dangerous is happening. I think that even a relatively ordinary person could move pretty fast if they were being threatened by a dragon or a werewolf or what have you. Fear gives men wings, after all.
You don't move only half of the round. You move the entire round, it's just for practical reasons in a game that movement and other action are dealth with one after the other.
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You don't move only half of the round. You move the entire round, it's just for practical reasons in a game that movement and other action are dealth with one after the other.
Despite having a far more complex combat system than many games, Pathfinder still operates at an extremely high level of abstraction. Like all of the parrying, dodging, ducking, and so forth that is presumably going on, exactly how much of a 6-second turn you spend doing any one thing is left unclear because it's not importnt to how the system operates. It's possible that you spend 3 seconds moving to your opponent, and then stand still while swinging your weapon at them for 3 seconds, but that doesn't like the most likely scenario.
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The conversation was that it was difficult for my players to make the abstraction leap with rounds only being 6 seconds long.
There were a lot of other things flying around (deflecting an parrying being the other one), but this one was the easiest for me to change without thinking about it. Well, clearly, without thinking about it too much anyways.
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What this also does is change the basic reality of movement. Currently, with 6-second rounds, a 30' movement rate provides an average overland speed of 3.4 mph walking (a normal pace of one movement action per round), or 7.2 mph hustling. If flat-out running, this can be bumped up to 10-14 mph (x3 or x4 speed). Someone with the Run feat can bump this up to 17 mph, barring any class or spell-based boosts (monks, barbarians, etc.). This is pretty darn close to real life.
If you change the length of the round, you have to adjust movement to match, or people will be CRAWLING across the battlefield. Basically, you would take all of those speeds above, and reduce them by 40%. No one in the game would be eligible for even high-school track-and-field, let alone the Olympics. And this includes the monk.
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The conversation was that it was difficult for my players to make the abstraction leap with rounds only being 6 seconds long.
The timing seems to not make sense when you sequentially run through the initiative order, with tons of actions going on. In reality, players and monsters should decide their actions simultaneously, with priority given by initiative order. Having everyone plan ahead and hold actions doesn't really make sense when the entire round of six seconds has all 4-6 player's actions and 4+ monster actions all packed into that time. The abstraction should only be analyzed with a single creature/player doing a single round worth of actions.
In my play-by-post games I run, everyone turns in their actions and I do a single big summary post of the round. Private messages are sent with those able to interrupt or alter actions based on someone with higher priority impacting what they are doing.
There was a large discussion with my players about changing rounds to last 10 seconds instead of 6. More like a thought experiment really. I thought that the conversation could be fun here, so I bring it to you to think on, and respond, if you'd like:
What happens to Pathfinder's mechanics, balance, etc. when you change rounds to last 10 seconds instead of 6? Is it too powerful? Too restricting? Inconsequential? Could you balance it back? Like making spells last 10 rounds instead of 1 minute?
my view is inconsequential as long as you address "1 Minute/level", "10 minutes/level" and similiar other time periods are addressed and everyone is in agreement with it
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Stuff about speed
This is the best argument I've seen against this, actually. I spent over 30 minutes trying to take this apart, and I can't, actually. The fastest human on Earth is significantly faster than 17mph, and the average human moves at about 15 MPH (when running). Even running, 10 seconds a round gets you going 10MPH, much too slow.
That argument is good enough for me.
I never thought it was a great idea to calculate land speed in to MPH, as this is just another abstraction. Animals like cats and leopards move far faster than humans, and they too have a landspeed of 30 but with high dexterity scores to possibly represent their speed.
This change will not meaningfully affect your game. If your players have some sort of objection to six seconds, then change it.
If you change the length of the round, you have to adjust movement to match, or people will be CRAWLING across the battlefield. Basically, you would take all of those speeds above, and reduce them by 40%. No one in the game would be eligible for even high-school track-and-field, let alone the Olympics. And this includes the monk.
You do realize that Humans didn't break the 4 minute mile until 1954.
Not 500 years ago.
Also, Runners NEVER CARRY ANYTHING when they're doing those sorts of activities. A Light Load (we'll say 30 pounds of equipment for a 9 Str Individual) would slow a runner down.
Have you seen what Runners Wear when they do those times? State of the Art Sneakers, Aerodynamic Shorts/Shirts and maybe a wrist watch. Not Robes, a Backpack, carrying a Staff (not a Baton), wearing a Belt (with pouches)......you get the picture?
You're probably right, with their modified round rules, the Adventurers wearing suboptimal gear, carrying stuff and occasionally have people swinging at them aren't going to compete with the time of a Kid running on a Track at a High School, let alone Olympic capacity.
Yeah, I think I'm fine with that.
If you change the length of the round, you have to adjust movement to match, or people will be CRAWLING across the battlefield. Basically, you would take all of those speeds above, and reduce them by 40%. No one in the game would be eligible for even high-school track-and-field, let alone the Olympics. And this includes the monk.You do realize that Humans didn't break the 4 minute mile until 1954.
Not 500 years ago.
Also, Runners NEVER CARRY ANYTHING when they're doing those sorts of activities. A Light Load (we'll say 30 pounds of equipment for a 9 Str Individual) would slow a runner down.
Have you seen what Runners Wear when they do those times? State of the Art Sneakers, Aerodynamic Shorts/Shirts and maybe a wrist watch. Not Robes, a Backpack, carrying a Staff (not a Baton), wearing a Belt (with pouches)......you get the picture?
You're probably right, with their modified round rules, the Adventurers wearing suboptimal gear, carrying stuff and occasionally have people swinging at them aren't going to compete with the time of a Kid running on a Track at a High School, let alone Olympic capacity.
Yeah, I think I'm fine with that.
Have you ever seen soldiers marching with heavy packs and all their gear? That is 30 feet every 6 seconds, 60 feet every 6 seconds in "Double time." Even with the Run Feat (5 times base movement) that works out to a 13 second 100m dash. I agree that that is a ridiculously fast time for anyone carrying any sort of load. (But note that Usain Bolt's world record time is 204+ feet every 6 seconds, and just about the same over 200 meters. The world record for the 400 meter is 181+ feet every 6 seconds for just over 7 rounds. 800 meters 155+ feet for 16+ rounds, the 1000 meter 148+ feet for 22 rounds (he made some Fort Saves), the 1500 meter 142+ for 34+ rounds.)
Just because no human was recorded breaking the 4 minute mile, doesn't mean that it didn't happen.
Rather than say 10 second rounds, think of it as 10 rounds in a minute. Rounds are abstract. You get a move and an action, with a few other bits, like free or swift actions. You might get a 5' and a full-round action.
You can think of a minute as having 100 seconds. The action economy won't change, just the duration of 10-round (1 minute) spells and effects.
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I'd almost prefer that. Our modern dedication to some ancient Sumerian/Babylonian time system is ridiculous, yet unavoidable. Why should my fantasy world be held to those same standards? It didn't have an ancient civilization that worshiped the numbers 12 and 60.
100 seconds in a minute.
100 minutes in an hour.
10 hours in a day.
Or 8.
Or something.
LOL!
Make sure that casks of wine come in imperial gallons, just to be consistent.