Str Hexcrafter or Dex Kensai?


Advice

The Exchange

I'm about to start Serpent's Skull. The party is a battle cleric, archer ranger, barb, and rogue. I decided to fill in the arcane slot by playing a magus. I'm playing a half-orc for rp reasons, but I'm trying to decide on my build. I'm currently leaning toward Kensai, but I'm not sure.

If I go hexcrafter, I'd do a str build. However, my ac will be pretty low for a few levels and will never really catch up to the dex build I'm thinking about. However, I will have full spellcasting as well as access to hexes. I love witches, but since I play them in other campaigns, getting access to hexes on this toon isn't essential. It's more just fun flavor.

If I go kensai, I'd do a dervish dance dex build. However, since I'm the only arcane caster, losing a spell per level is a pretty hefty penalty. At the same time, I would have a lot more ac with both int and dex.

I'm also taking Magical Lineage (Frostbite) and Wayang Spellhunter (Shocking Grasp). I plan to pick up both Rime Spell and Intensify Spell. If I grab Rime, I'll also prob grab enforcer for free intimidates when Frostbite is going. Basically, I plan on having a backpack full of lvl 1 pearls of power to fuel these two spells over and over. Frostbite is awesome for debuffing (fatigue, entangle, and shaken with the above combo), but shocking grasp is clearly better burst as well as being useful vs mobs immune to cold or non-lethal damage.

I really like both concepts. I'm leaning toward Kensai, but I'm really torn. Thoughts?


Could you do hexcrafter as well as quarterstaff master?
It looks like they combine, giving you access to the staff bonuses to AC at higher level.
Kensai looses med and hvy armor prof's. Does adding int bonuses to AC as well as dex make up for this?


Dex built Magus have a more cookie cutter feel to them. As they are all pretty much built the same way. Str built Magus are a bit freer with the number of builds they can have. So they can look and play different.

It's more of a player choice on what you want to do.

On Kensai, like the class but giving up spell recall is a deal breaker for me.

The Exchange

@Matt2VK I'm not too fussed about losing spell recall since I'm going black blade (my arcane pool is going to be small, so I'll be almost exclusively using it to enhance my weap).

@Cornielius using quick calculations I'd get 14 flat armor from +5 full plate with a max dex of 3 if I made it mithral for a total armor+dex of 17. I could very reasonably get both my dex and int to 24 and eventually get +8 bracers of armor for a total armor+dex(and int) of 22. So technically going without armor nets me more armor, higher touch ac, better reflex saves, and more mobility than wearing armor. Regarding the staff magus, I'm not a fan of the archetype, but it would combine with hexcrafter.

Currently, I'm leaning more and more heavily on Kensai. I know it's a bit more cookie cutter, but I think I'm liking the flavor better than hexcrafter...for now, lol...


Well, since you seem to be concerned with filling the "arcane slot", Kensai might not be the best choice because of diminished spellcasting.

Witch is one of my favorite classes in the game so I'm a little biased, but I think a Hexcrafter may be more useful to your party. Takign the Slumber hex gives you a small chance of dropping an opponent at the start of a battle (they are prone and able to be coup-de-graced), and there are plenty of other hexes that are great for utility as well.

The Healing and Cauldron hexes can help you float a healer's role if the cleric goes down. Evil Eye is a great all-purpose combat hex that you can use against any sort of opponent that's giving you trouble; hitting too often, too hard to hit, countering your skills checks, etc.

Fortune/Misfortune saved a few of my party members on one occasion. Fumbles will occur half as often and critical hits twice as often under the effects of Fortune, with the opposite effect for Misfortune.

The Exchange

@Big Lemon Witch is definitely my favorite class in the game, so I'm biased too. However, I tend to play the arcane support class the vast majority of the time with my group. I realize I'm limiting my capacity as the arcane caster for our group by going Kensai, but I wanted to stray somewhat from the arcane support role. I'll still have access to a lot of arcane spells, and my UMD will be decent for other stuff.

Our whole group is going to be relatively high damage, so I'm okay with having less control in our group. With my rime frostbites, I'll have decent debuffing on the target I'm attacking. I think this will allow me to bring some arcane support while being more of a melee damage class.

You're right tho, hexes are amazing. Witch ftw!!!


Well magus has a list off problems:

1) Bad to hit (-2 when using signature ability spellcombat + 3/4 bab)
2) Concentration problems
3) Bad AC (want's to be a melee char but doesn't get heavy armor prof until lvl 13 for an AP thats as good as never)
4) Bad damage output (1handed weapons just don't come close to 2handed)
5) too few spells slots (for a class that's suppose to cast spells)
6) Arcane points are a joke (too few, plenty of splendid things to use them on, but not enough points to really matter until high lvl)

Think of how you can solve these problems, without making one of the other worse...

to hit
kensei more focus on int makes arcane accuracy an option, and get weapon focus for free.
Arcane pool -- make your weapon keen the rest go to better to hit (unless you really have no problems hitting)

Concentration
Combat casting only advances the point were you can cast 0 lvl spells a lvl or so. So no help there.
Wand wielder - wands don't provoke AoO
hexes don't provoke AoO.

AC
Kensie wins out here. Just better.
The str based magus can take heavy armor prof at level 7 - buy a mithral full plate and AC should be fine.
At low level shield is your friend

bad damage out put (when you don't use spells)
Kensie and the dexbased magus don't do ANY dam until lvl 3. Can't wield the weapon 2handed, and has problems getting PA (but that does lower to hit). And the lack of spells will be felt hard until midtlevels.
Hexcrafter and the str based have accces to 2handed and PA.

Too few spells
Hexcrafter offers an alternative to the low number of spells - so far so good. But does delay first magus arcane (wand wielder) until lvl 6. So better make those hexes count.
Kensei makes the lack of spells even worse. Note that 1 spell less pr day means 1 less spell option. sure you could buy a few pearls of power, but that would just give you more of the same spells. One less spell pr day means your have less options.

Arcane points are a joke
both hexcrafter and Kensie loses spell recall. Good. now you don't have to look at the power an imagine what could have been, had the class been given more arcane points.

And then there is buylimits. Paizo's AP doen't always offer good places to buy things. I don't know the buylimit in the big city in this AP - but consider what happens if you build can't get those +6 items it really needs... Some GM's don't play with buylimit. check before play...


Another thing to note is that you can that the Extra Hex feat once you get your first hex. You get a hex at level 4, so at level 5 you can immediately get a second. The flight hex is often a favored choice since level 5 is when it grants you full flight. That saves you on a spell slot right there, and it is always available.

Hexcrafter might be more useful over all. Your choice in traits and plans for spells seems to show that you recognize the importance of debuffing. Hexes allow you to debuff all day, so that you can be of more use than simply another weapon wielder once your spells are used up. You also gain access to spells with the curse descriptor, which can just ruin the enemies' day. Plus, you would not have to rely either on finding scimitars or taking the bladebound archetype to get an appropriate weapon if you avoid the dervish dancer business.


lemeres wrote:
Another thing to note is that you can that the Extra Hex feat once you get your first hex.

Not quite; you're partially incorrect.

Hexcrafter does not have the Hex class feature, and therefore does not qualify for the Extra Hex feat. (Hex Magus and Hex Arcana class features do not equal Hex class feature; similar but not the same).

However, as written, Hex Arcana states that anytime you would gain a new Arcana, you may gain a new Hex instead. Therefore, you can use the Extra Arcana feat for the same end result. ;) Splitting hairs? Probably, but if you're gonna do it, do it the way the rules support.


What would be FUN is if you could influence your GM to let you play a whip focuses dervish dancing kensai, you wouldnt want to dump str since you need it for tripping, but it could be flavorful and fun and eliminate the need to focus on concentration checks in in combat.

Another place to look at is the skirnir magus going with s STR build. Yes, you lose spell combat until 8th level, but look at this really closely it is NOT as bad as it looks. Much of what people complain about that's weak about the magus gets shored up, and by 8th level spell combat is actually when it becomes most useful.


Skirnir does help with AC problems.

And bonded item means no blade bound.

Still loses spells (and gain 1 of them back again from his bounded item)...

Overall - nothing wrong with the Skirnir - helps with one problem (AC) but makes to other problems worse (lack of spellslots and arcane pool)...


Bigtuna wrote:
Alot of stuff, im too lazy to single out

Im playing a Blackblade Kensei and its not nearly as bad as Bigtuna makes it sound to be.

1)At level 5, with my Arcane pool enhancing my weapon it becomes a +4 weapon. Everyone else I roll with have plus 1 weapons, this mitigates the 3/4 BAB easily. A fighter using rapid shot or power attack would have the same + to hit.

2)Concentration problems? Due to the reduced casting I didnt even try using my spells to nova until level 5 when I was able to pick up Craft Wondrous Items. This gave me access to Gloves of Elvenkind and a few Pearls of Power. You can also use good combat tactics,traits and feats to help mitigate the concentration checks.

3)No clue what he is talking about here, Kensi have great AC

4)Your damage as a Kensi will be decend after level 3 even without using spells. No its not going to compare to a 2hander. If you want to do damage like that play a fighter or barbarian. But guess what? You get spells!

5)I will agree with his point 5. Though now that I was able to start picking up Pearls of power its not that much of an issue. NOTE: I cant wear armor and dont need to spend money on my weapon so all my money can be spend on utility things like my gloves and Pearls of power.

6)With reduced Arcane points I use them just for empowering my weapon right now. At level 5 you should have 4 or 5 points. If you have the standard 3 to 4 battles before rest you should always have enough for what you need them for.

Bigtuna wrote:
Kensie and the dexbased magus don't do ANY dam until lvl 3.

Completely agree here, My damage was 1d6+1 until level 3. This wasnt as bad as he makes it sound as I would mem spells like color spray.

Bigtuna wrote:
Can't wield the weapon 2handed, and has problems getting PA

I have heard of people making strength kensi, I wouldnt suggest it. But there are ppl in PFS who are successful. ALso why cant they wield the weapon 2handed? Granted they cant Finesse wielding 2handed, so why would you want to. But if you made a STR based Kensi you have every right to use both hands while not using spell combat. They can pick up PA, my Kensi has a 13 str so later I could get it(too heavily feat taxed at the movement to have it). But there is a thread on this board showing the math that 3/4 BAB only specific situations where they benefit from it. So most likely I wont pick it up.

Bigtuna wrote:
both hexcrafter and Kensie loses spell recall.

This is a very good arguement for the base class over archtypes. But i believe Hexcrafters get Spell recall at level 11.

IN CONCLUSION:
All in all, I believe Bigtuna's concerns are theorycraft. Ask the people that play them to give you their accounts. My Bladebound Kensi isnt in PFS but others are. I had even started a thread about my experiance about it, Artanthos gave his accounts of his PFS Bladebound Kensi


I maybe a little negative about the "problems" with the magus.
And once you reach around lvl 7-8 the magus starts to work. With a little planing. I just want the OP to be aware that this isn't a class without problems, fixable problems but you should be aware of them so you don't play a magus for a level or two and get disapointed.

As for my point 3) - The standard magus has a AC problem - as you said it can be fixed in a number of way - being dex based, Kensei (or both).

Spell recall to the Hexcrafter? It's not completely clear from the rules. But I believe they do get it. But its the kind of thing you should tjek with your GM. On the bright side once you get it at level 13 (or 14 if you dipped sorc 1), you do have a few more arcane points than ecounters/day - so you could use spell recall for a few extra spells/day.


I should mention the group I play with are fairly optimized. I stands to reason that with a less optimized group the start difficulties of the magus might not seem significant.

And it's not like other classes don't have a slow start. His just not one of those classes that get a greatsword + the best armor money can buy and then is good to go...


Slacker2010 wrote:


Bigtuna wrote:
Kensie and the dexbased magus don't do ANY dam until lvl 3.

Completely agree here, My damage was 1d6+1 until level 3. This wasnt as bad as he makes it sound as I would mem spells like color spray.

You have some Great points, Just wanted the OP to be aware.

Bigtuna wrote:
but you should be aware of them so you don't play a magus for a level or two and get disapointed.

Completely agree, it was little disheartening from 1 to 3, but at level 5 I felt like a beast.

Im not downing anything your saying. Its all valid points that need to be addressed with feats and items, but what class doesnt have that. I just wanted to tell the OP that Bladbound Kensi are very powerful and fun. Atleast at my experiance, but i have only played levels 1-5 so far, but I predict hitting level 6 in the next two weeks.


Well i did come off a little negative...

So here's what i love about the magus...
1) every level offers something new...
There extra feats, magus arcanas, an extra spell level, black blade just got a +1, arcane pool gives an other +1, armor prof. There's always something. And even when you just got something there's always something new an exciting coming...

2) Adaptability - you can make your weapon just the right kind for what ever encounter your in. Did I just all into to hit an just hit the foe on a "3"? - next turn i'll try flaming...
Electricity didn't work - how about cold?
Oh so you have like a gazillion natrual attacks? - let's see how you like being staggered...

3) With all the listed things going against the magus. It's just great when you can check a thing off the list. Just got that concentration item? great now spellcombat isn't risky anymore.

4) Crit fishing. Yes the magus can crit fish like no other. Once you get that 10d6+20 shocking grasp ready - with a crit range of 15-20 you REALLY want that dice to roll high... But it's a win-win. if you didn't hit your next attack hacve a crit chance... if you hit but didn't crit it's still ~+55 dam. Or looking at that frigid touch... staggered 1 round? Or Staggered the rest of your life... Muhahha...


@ OP

With your racial choice of Half Orc, I would snag the alternate racial traits Toothy, City Raised, and Skilled, if possible. City Raised and Toothy is an amazing combination (especially for a str based char), as you can wield a whip and still threaten. Also, your bite is a single primary weapon, so you'll get str*1.5 to damage. My favorite thing to do with this is to snag the wand wielder arcana to use true strike and get +20 to your trip attempts. Even multi-legged things with very high CMDs aren't that big of a deal at this point.

Of course, with being a bladebound, you won't get your first arcana until 6th level, so that particular strategy might not be your cup of tea, but still, having free whip proficiency AND a natural attack is pretty hot. Really, a good way to think of using a whip is "hey, I can use touch attacks from 15 feet away. And I get 2 chances to hit!"

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