Rogue Talents and Ninja Tricks...


Advice


In my specific case this is a for a multiclass, PFS character (5 levels of Lore Warden, 1 level of Maneuver Master monk and now 3 levels of rogue).

I'm starting to plan ahead and debating how to do this character's next few levels. This level (CL9) I'll probably add Two-weapon fighting (he is DEX & INT based - focused on combat maneuvers especially dirty trick but also trip). Since he already has Greater Dirty Trick he has a fairly reliable means of getting sneak attacks on his own (full attack, flurry of maneuvers, dirty trick at +24 unarmed to blind, the his full attacks all get sneak - at this level that's three attacks two at full BAB -2 for two-weapon fighting). Even without drawing his rapier he'll be doing a lot of damage (1d6+3 +2d6 sneak +1d6 acid from gloves + occasional uses of Elemental Fist on top of that all on each attack that lands).

That's good but could certainly be better...

So at his next level if I go another level of rogue, he get's a Rogue Talent.

I used his first Rogue Talent to get Combat Trick (Greater Dirty Trick) - so that's out (perhaps Ninja Trick for Combat Trick is technically legal but that seems cheesy).

I'm considering two talents in particular - but curious if I'm missing other's that are also strong options.

Option 1 - Rogue Talent - Offensive Defense. For level 10 this would mean that if all my possible sneak attacks land I'd get +6 to my AC for the round (unlikely I'd do this but that would also stack if I used Combat Expertise for yet more boost to my AC for the round)

Option 2 - Rogue Talent Ninja Trick for Pressure Points - each successful sneak attack also deals 1 point of STR or DEX ability damage. This means potentially 3 points of ability damage a turn, plus my straight damage, plus my Dirty Trick effect (first full attack that's likely blindness then depends on the circumstances what else I'd stack on). Appealing as it is very consistent with my character's habits - dealing a lot of different effects in rapid succession - helping my allies land their own blows (a tripped, blinded opponent is much easier to hit for melee types) - adding DEX damage to that seems helpful (or STR damage if that seems more helpful)

Other options like the Ninja Trick Wall Climber (for a situational climb speed of 20') seem good as well.

But the more social tricks or those requiring a Ki Pool aren't as good for this character (Ki pool isn't a viable option and social tricks/talents are not so useful for PFS play).

Any good tricks or talents I've missed?

(or optionally do people think I should instead of going mostly Rogue continue with my Lore Warden levels or even add a fourth multiclass? An arcane class would fit this character's story quite well - likely Void School Wizard but I'd consider other options like Magus or even Alchemist)


I vote pressure points!


Rycaut wrote:
Even without drawing his rapier he'll be doing a lot of damage (1d6+3 +2d6 sneak +1d6 acid from gloves + occasional uses of Elemental Fist on top of that all on each attack that lands).

I think you need to re-evaluate what you consider "a lot of damage."

4d6+3 only averages 17 damage (and that's when you sneak attack). For a level 9 character, that's a joke.

A level 1 Fighter with Power attack, a Greatsword, and 18 Strength deals 2d6+9 (16 average). So, under the right conditions, you can just barely out damage a character 8 levels below you...

I think you're kind of in trouble all around here and not much is going to help you. If you're dead set on this character, I'd also have to recommend Pressure Points, so at least you can contribute something with Strength damage.


Rycaut wrote:


So at his next level if I go another level of rogue, he get's a Rogue Talent.

I would suggest you look at either Combat Swipe or Slow Reactions, I think either will be better for you than Pressure Points.

Dealing ability damage sounds awesome.. but how many hits will you put on an enemy before they are dead, and how many attacks will they get in the mean time? You are going to give them around a -2 to hit.. your blinding them does far, far more.

Improved Steal is a nice way to mess with a cleric or wizard enemy.. how many spell component pouches are they carrying? I doubt more than one.. punish those newbies!

-James
PS: Also, what rogue archetype did you go for, or are you getting uncanny dodge at 4th?


mplindustries wrote:


4d6+3 only averages 17 damage (and that's when you sneak attack). For a level 9 character, that's a joke.

A level 1 Fighter with Power attack, a Greatsword, and 18 Strength deals 2d6+9 (16 average). So, under the right conditions, you can just barely out damage a character 8 levels below you...

I think you're kind of in trouble all around here and not much is going to help you. If you're dead set on this character, I'd also have to recommend Pressure Points, so at least you can contribute something with Strength damage.

I love incredibly condescending nonsense!

you know 4d6+3 x3 (you know, because we established this character has several attacks) is an average of 51, right? That would be...just under half a CR 9's hit points? And that's with a fantastic debuff (blinding, which means those attacks will stick, and so will everyone else's) and a skill-monkey character? Yup, clearly that's awful.

...

The last rogue I built got a lot of mileage off of the climb speed trick. It's amazing how often you can get out of trouble just by going 20' up in a room. The natural +8 coupled with any ranks in climb means you can also autosucceed on just about any tough climb (9 ranks in climb +3 class skill +8 for climb speed = 30 when taking 10, so you climb..everything).

Stat damage is pretty rad, though.

I'd suggest staying rogue as the better S.A. damage and mountain of skill points work nicely with what you already have. If you're set on having some sort of magic for flavor just go for the minor and major magic talents and a bunch of UMD. If nothing else major magic gives you things like shield, which can be useful for you.


How is offensive defense giving you so much bonus when your sneak damage is so low?

I would suggest talents that don't care how much your SA is, just that you're making a SA.

Distracting Attack will make you a HERO to any other rogue in the party, especially a ranged rogue or one with Sap Master.

Slow Reactions is nice to help for positioning of allies.

And...yeah, I guess that's about it. There's a few other decent non-SA options, like ninja's Wall Climber, but not much. Talents / non-ki-using tricks are pretty slim pickings for good stuff.

EDIT: And yeah, overall mpl had a great post, but i strongly disagree with how "useful" Pressure Points is. I would never take that, builds up too slow to matter.


This build currently will get a combat maneuver plus two attacks at full BAB plus one iterative attack on a full attack action. All at -2 from his usual to hit bonuses but due to weapon finesse, high DEX and magic items he will his consistently with his full BAB attacks and reasonably often with his iterative (due to stacking effects like prone, blind etc)

In the future I may even buy an item to gain a natural attack (which on a full attack would be a secondary attack) and he will likely take improved two weapon fighting in a level or two.

Due to his 5 levels of fighter his BAB is a bit better than a comparable rogue though his sneak attack dice are lower than a full rogue of his level would have, I think his feats and abilities more than make up for that in many cases.

He is a straight no archetype rogue. I couldn't find an archetype that I really liked (didn't want to give up Trapfinding - his disable device is quite high and surprisingly few PFS parties have anyone with Trapfinding. Plus due to magic items and abilities he casts detect magic and has a very high spell craft so with magic traps he may even know in advance what it is.


Oh an usually he will use his rapier which is for a +9 to damage due to agile, weapon training and weapon specialization so his damage output will be far higher still (high crit weapon also helps). If he has time the rapier would even have the corrosive power due to his gloves - but that does take an action to activate so depends on the early rounds whether it will be active (he is usually more effective if he can close quickly and start disabling spellcasters)

Currently his biggest weakness is combats with mostly flyers as his ranged options are more limited.

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