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I'm making a secondary character for a level 20 game at the DM's request and I've decided after some deliberation to go with a Transmuter Wizard 9/Fighter 1/Eldritch Knight 10 build, focused on changing forms in combat and becoming a melee monster.
Here's my current stat block/gear:
Race: Hobgoblin
HP: 282
AC 26 (+5 robe of the archmagi, +5 ring of deflection, +6 Dex)
Original Statblock (rolls): 18, 14, 15, 15, 14, 13
Special Houserule: Every 4 levels, choose one score to increase by +2 (instead of +1). All 10 points went into Str.
Str 39
Dex 22
Con 28
Int 19
Wis 14
Cha 13
Gear: Amulet of mighty fists +5, belt of physical perfection +6, robe of the archmagi, ring of deflection +5, headband of intellect +4, manual of gainful exercise +5 (consumed), manual of +5 Con (consumed)
I get the standard 20 feats for 20 levels, plus Scribe Scroll, one bonus metamagic/item creation feat from Wiz 5, one bonus combat feat from fighter 1, and 3 bonus combat feats from EK 10, for a total of 25 feats I need to pick.
My main combat spells will be beast shape IV, form of the dragon III, and monstrous physique. I plan on using poisons from snakes, grappling from constrictors/tigers/bears, breath weapons and tons o' attacks from dragons, and whatever else I come up with. Essentially I never want to play the same creature twice, just kind of change into whatever I feel like at the time. No real plan on that front.
So...what kinds of feats do you guys suggest for a weaponless, magicless melee character (since I won't be able to cast spells in combat most of the time unless I'm in dragon form).
The EH feat string will net u +6 str if u get your charisma up some
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The EH feat string will net u +6 str if u get your charisma up some
Unfortunately not. The bonus provided by the Orc and Abyssal bloodlines is an inherent bonus, the same type provided by the wish spell and the manual of gainful exercise. Essentially, if I upgrade my headband to the one that gives me a bonus to all mental scores and spend 3 feats, I could get 1 more Str than my current score, and save myself the 137,500 gp price tag. But I don't really know what else to spend my gold on, and a +1 bonus to hit with every attack isn't really worth 3 feats, so...yeah.
I appreciate the thought though.
You don't normally get a feat every level, just the odds ones first off.
As feats, feral combat training with dragon style can really up your damage with one type of natural weapon, Usually claw is best as it's the most common. Another option is arcane armor mastery, which gives you only a 5% spell failure chance with mithril fullplate. This will really help your AC, because a 26 is under most peoples bonuses, and mirror image and displacement wont help if the baddie has true sight. If you do go that route I would stick to giant form and monstrous physique as they let you keep your armor and gear when you change. Arcane strike is also a good one if you don't care about quickened spells too much.
There's a Guide for good forms for each of the polymorph spells.
Edit: There's the right Guide! Fixed!
Well there are lots of other fun things u can do with the EH feats just a fun thought
There are also the style feats that work very well for melee builds
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You don't normally get a feat every level, just the odds ones first off.
As feats, feral combat training with dragon style can really up your damage with one type of natural weapon, Usually claw is best as it's the most common. Another option is arcane armor mastery, which gives you only a 5% spell failure chance with mithril fullplate. This will really help your AC, because a 26 is under most peoples bonuses, and mirror image and displacement wont help if the baddie has true sight. If you do go that route I would stick to giant form and monstrous physique as they let you keep your armor and gear when you change. Arcane strike is also a good one if you don't care about quickened spells too much.There's a Guide for good forms for each of the polymorph spells.
Sorry, yeah. 15 feats, not 20. Don't know what I was thinking when I typed that, lol.
Let's analyze your math here for a second so that I can understand it better.
Your feat chain requires:
Improved Unarmed Strike, Weapon Focus (Claw), Dragon Style, Stunning Fist, Dragon Ferocity, and Feral Combat Style.
In exchange for these 6 feats, I receive the following benefits:
+1 to hit with my claws. At this level, it's pretty negligible
An extra +7 to all my damage rolls with my claws, or an extra +14 damage for my first claw attack each round. This is pretty nice.
10 uses of Stunning Fist per day, with a DC of 22 because I don't have a good Wisdom. Meh.
The ability to charge through squares that contain allies. This is pretty nice for the occasion when I don't want to use a flying form.
So there's the math. A +1 to hit and a +7 to damage, but not always guaranteed since not every form I take will have claws...for 6 feats? I don't know, is that really worth it? Someone else with more experience at high level play weigh in here please.
Also, for the armor, I'm already wearing armor. My robe of the magi, which gives me a +5 armor bonus to my AC, as well as a +4 resistance bonus to my saves, and SR 18 (Pretty irrelevant, but nice for resisting monster SLAs with low caster levels). And I don't need feats or ACP to cast in it.
My AC is 26 at the moment, but it increases whenever I take a form that gives me Dex or that gives me natural armor, so I'm not too worried about it. And of course every form I take gives me a Con bonus, so an extra 20-80 hit points there too.
Does Arcane Strike apply to natural weapons?
I would also stay away from poisons. Even if the beastie isn't immune to poison, a big if at 20th, the save DCs for the effects for polymorph spells are the save DC of the spell, so with your int so low your poison DCs are crap.
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I would also stay away from poisons. Even if the beastie isn't immune to poison, a big if at 20th, the save DCs for the effects for polymorph spells are the save DC of the spell, so with your int so low your poison DCs are crap.
True. Same with my breath weapons, sadly, but at least a breath weapon still does half damage on a successful save.
After considering it, I really don't think the potential for 14-21 extra damage per round (I seriously doubt I'll be using any forms with more than 2 claws) is worth almost half of my feats. What other suggestions are there that might be more helpful?
Arcane Strike, on the other hand, is pretty good. A swift action to give myself +5 to damage for every attack on the round that can be combined with Power Attack is nice (My CL is 20 still because of the Magical Knack trait).
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snip
None of this will be allowed. The Martial Versatility feat is a human-only feat, and, as I stated in my OP, my character is a hobgoblin.
Edit: Ah, I see you noticed that as well. Unfortunately, the point of my playing a hobgoblin is not for the ability score modifiers (though they are nice), it's because I wanted to play something unique and monstrous. I'm afraid my race is non-negotiable.
Vital strike chain also something to think about with the huge hit dice that u can get
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Vital strike chain also something to think about with the huge hit dice that u can get
Indeed. I think the most amount of damage I can get is 2d8, from form of the dragon III. So for two feats, Vital Strike and Improved Vital Strike, I can increase the amount of damage from my bite as a dragon from 2d8 to 6d8, an average increase of 18 damage. For only a two feat investment, it's pretty significant, and will help me keep my damage up when I'm repositioning with a form that doesn't have pounce. Thank you.
So that's Power Attack, Vital Strike, Improved Vital Strike, and Arcane Strike so far.
And improved natural attack for 3d8 to 9d8
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And improved natural attack for 3d8 to 9d8
That's...again, kind of an iffy feat. Since I don't have a base form to stick to, investing one feat to improve one kind of natural attack slightly seems like a waste to me. Vital Strike works on any natural attack, which is great, but Improved Natural Attack makes you pick and choose...just seems so restrictive.
At any rate, with my ridiculously high Strength score, I'm not too worried about damage and you guys have helped me improve that enough.
What other feats would you guys suggest to improve my combat? Stuff besides flat damage?
A bunch of stuff about dragon style
It's was just a suggestion off the top of my head, wasn't sure about the viability. An option is to go Sohei monk instead of fighter. That would get you your wis bonus to ac, as small as it is, and two of the needed feats out of the way. Speaking of sohei monk, how attached are you to wizard? Because I've got a nice sohei monk/empyreal sorcerer idea just waiting to be tried. Casting stat to AC is the main draw of the build, with some, admittedly mediocre, blood-line powers thrown in for fun. It might even cross-blood well, I haven really looked at it too much.
Some stuff about AC
To be honest your AC is so low I wouldn't even try. The best additional AC you can get out of a size increased form is Huge beast shape or giant form at a +3 (+6 natural, -2 size, -1 dex). Not really worth trying. I'd just go for a +5 cloak of resistance and save yourself 50,00 gp. Now, that being said, if you want to go for AC and forget about attack the tiny magical beast is pretty darn good with a +9 (+4 dex, +2 size, +4 natural.)
Still don't think it's worth it for you, but there might be a build for it using an agile amulet of mighty fists...
Indeed. I think the most amount of damage I can get is 2d8, from form of the dragon III.
Might I introduce you to the Behemoth Hippopotamus? With it's 4d8 bite your vital striking will hit like a truck! It might not be better than some other forms, but there's something to be said about one big attack.
Then add improved natural attack bite and u are looking at 18d8 with a 19-20 crit and grab
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A bunch of stuff about dragon styleIt's was just a suggestion off the top of my head, wasn't sure about the viability. An option is to go Sohei monk instead of fighter. That would get you your wis bonus to ac, as small as it is, and two of the needed feats out of the way. Speaking of sohei monk, how attached are you to wizard? Because I've got a nice sohei monk/empyreal sorcerer idea just waiting to be tried. Casting stat to AC is the main draw of the build, with some, admittedly mediocre, blood-line powers thrown in for fun. It might even cross-blood well, I haven really looked at it too much.
Unfortunately, sohei monk replaces Stunning Fist, so it just gives me Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat (a 1 for 1 trade, but I lose +1 BAB and 2 hit points and I gain +2 AC and +2 Ref/Will, but I must be Lawful...ugh)
I prefer wizard because there are a lot of transformation spells to learn (in addition to all the useful utility spells I wanted to pick up to help out of combat), and the sorcerer comes up just short of learning all of them, I think. Even if I could get every transformation spell at every spell level, I'd miss out on some nice utility spells.
The ability score bonus to AC is a nice side boost, but since my casting ability score isn't that important for me with no DCs to speak of...I dunno.
Your build would give me higher AC, an option for fighting when I'm not transformed, and more spells per day, in exchange for less damage or fewer hit points (I'd have to drop Str or Con in order to invest in Wis effectively), even fewer hit points (eldritch knight), fewer feats, lower BAB, and less spell flexibility.
Hmm...both builds have their merits, but I think I'm happy with the one I have now. Just to save myself the trouble of having to rewrite all of this stuff I already wrote (paper character sheet, not electronic).
Some stuff about AC
To be honest your AC is so low I wouldn't even try. The best additional AC you can get out of a size increased form is Huge beast shape or giant form at a +3 (+6 natural, -2 size, -1 dex). Not really worth trying. I'd just go for a +5 cloak of resistance and save yourself 50,00 gp. Now, that being said, if you want to go for AC and forget about attack the tiny magical beast is pretty darn good with a +9 (+4 dex, +2 size, +4 natural.)
Still don't think it's worth it for you, but there might be a build for it using an agile amulet of mighty fists...Good point. However, my AC can increase by +6 with form of the dragon III (-2 size, +8 NA, no Dex penalty), but even then it's only 32.
Still I can potentially increase that with spells, right? I have a cleric, so he can cast magic vestement, and a druid to cast barkskin, both of them level 20, so that's another +10...36-42 is pretty respectable, isn't it?
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Might I introduce you to the Behemoth Hippopotamus? With it's 4d8 bite your vital striking will hit like a truck! It might not be better than some other forms, but there's something to be said about one big attack.
Indeed. I think the most amount of damage I can get is 2d8, from form of the dragon III.
Haha, wow! I was not aware of this form! Yeah, you know, why not? The idea is just too funny, and I can just imagine the look on my DM's face when I tell her I'm rolling 18d8 for a basic attack.
INA (Bite) it is.
Improved critical bite takes that to a 17 and all your str is x2 haha... if someone wanted to do some math it could be fun
Ah, missed dragon form. Silly me.
I wouldn't allow magic vestments on the robes because they're not actually armor, but if you think your DM will go with it more power too you.
Hmm... Well, a balor, a CR 20 creature, has a +31 main with is sword not power attacking, a +26 with, so I guess a 36-42 is pretty good. If you can find ways to make it higher for things like a greatwyrm black dragon, CR 23 I think, that would be best. Full on bruisers like that tend to abit higher attack bonuses than the SLA beasties like the balor.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this, use a feat to pick up the Multimorph arcane discovery. If you combine it with a general purpose spell like Polymorph, it gives you tons of flexibility. Even with just straight beast shape, it's incredibly versatile.
18d8 averages out to 81 and your str w/huge beast shape is a 45 which is a +17, so that's 98. Add in +4 more for arcane strike and your looking at 102 on average. Crits don't actually add that much though, only adding another 4d8+21 for an average of 39 extra and 142 total.
Heaven forbid you get a druid to cast strong jaw. Because we are attacking as though we are gargantuan due to INA it would just about double the damage. 36d8 on a single attack... ouch.
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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this, use a feat to pick up the Multimorph arcane discovery. If you combine it with a general purpose spell like Polymorph, it gives you tons of flexibility. Even with just straight beast shape, it's incredibly versatile.
Multimorph is a little pointless since I have the shapechange spell already.
18d8 averages out to 81 and your str w/huge beast shape is a 45 which is a +17, so that's 98. Add in +4 more for arcane strike and your looking at 102 on average. Crits don't actually add that much though, only adding another 4d8+21 for an average of 39 extra and 142 total.
+5 with Arcane Strike. My CL is still 20 because of the Magical Knack trait. Then another +10 from the Power Attack feat, for 109 average damage, or 173 on a crit. Pretty good, all around.
Heaven forbid you get a druid to cast strong jaw. Because we are attacking as though we are gargantuan due to INA it would just about double the damage. 36d8 on a single attack... ouch.
I shall, in fact, convince my druid to cast strong jaw...it will take me forever to roll all those dice XD
Now I want to see this character (with Cleric and Druid buffing) go up against the Terrasque. It'd be like a Godzilla movie.
Does Enlarge Person work on shapeshifted forms?
Monk Stuff...
(a 1 for 1 trade, but I lose +1 BAB and 2 hit points and I gain +2 AC and +2 Ref/Will, but I must be Lawful...ugh)
Er... aren't Hobgoblins usually Lawful?
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function).
Also, for the armor, I'm already wearing armor. My robe of the magi, which gives me a +5 armor bonus to my AC, as well as a +4 resistance bonus to my saves, and SR 18 (Pretty irrelevant, but nice for resisting monster SLAs with low caster levels). And I don't need feats or ACP to cast in it.
As I understand it, you cannot use armor bonuses while polymorphed, without the wild enhancment, which only works with wild shape.
An amulet of natural armor would work.
Greater mm rod extend+ shape change = 6.6-ish hours per casting. Memorize it twice and have over half the days shape changing spells covered.
Also arcane discovery Multimorph + polymorph any object on yourself = effectively unlimited shape shifting as long as you turn humanoid with at least 2min remaining o your current form and do not return to your original form.
Shapechange is still better than poly any, but both are good tricks.
If you went with druid alone, you would be out monstrous physique and form of the dragon spell access, but would be able to use wild armor, and use natural spellcaster for full casting in wild shape.
There are feats to enhance wildshape that allow you to talk in wildsahpe as well as other effects.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I'm surprised no-one has mentioned this, use a feat to pick up the Multimorph arcane discovery. If you combine it with a general purpose spell like Polymorph, it gives you tons of flexibility. Even with just straight beast shape, it's incredibly versatile.Multimorph is a little pointless since I have the shapechange spell already.
You said "My main combat spells will be beast shape IV, form of the dragon III, and monstrous physique"
... Multi morph would be available any time you are using those. Not to mention it's probably more efficient to use lower level spells rather than burn your 9th level slots every time you want to shift.