Help Please: Catfolk Melee Arcane Dualist GOD!


Advice


Okay so I have given up all hope playing a dual shield, or even simple TWF, Arcane Dualist. So I am now looking for help to simply make the most OP melee arcane dualist catfolk possible! I got tired of complaints of my characters ineffectiveness and oddness; mostly due to others lacking of imagination and acceptance of real life examples (A and B of C).

So while I hate playing for the mechanical viability purposes this much, I am now feeling like "To Hell With It."

Conditions:
1) Melee DPS fighting focus
2) Catfolk
3) 20 level build
4) At-least 13/20 levels in Arcane Dualist (adding other archetypes as well is alright thought)!
5) 18 pt buy
6) IF possible; At least 50% Arcane Dualist levels past level 5. (Sorry I really hated suggestions for when you ask for help with playing a class and they tell you to just take 3-5 levels and leave it (Your not really playing that class then now are you)).

Goal:
To make the character as viable in melee as soon as possible, with as many levels out of the minimum 13 Arcane Dualist levels as possible.

Thanks for your help and sorry for all the conditions.


It is my understanding I want to get to 13th as soon as possible, allowing me to use bardic performance as a swift action, enabling me to get right into combat ASAP. Wish there was a feat to get this sooner, then maybe I would go right into EK at 7th.


Captain, I feel the need to point out that any dualist character would be broken on the grounds of action economy alone. However a duelist character would probably be alright.

I would suggest for such a breed of cat that 2 levels of ninja can go a long way giving you an extra attack at the expense of a swift action. I would further suggest that archeologist might serve your purpose slightly better too.

If not then beyond that I would consider the tried and true dex focused scimitar weapon finesse catfolk.

But two ninja levels. Seriously, it's an extra attack and if you take vanish trick you have an awesome way to be a bit more like the cheshire cat... and who wouldn't want that?


Abraham spalding wrote:

Captain, I feel the need to point out that any dualist character would be broken on the grounds of action economy alone. However a duelist character would probably be alright.

I would suggest for such a breed of cat that 2 levels of ninja can go a long way giving you an extra attack at the expense of a swift action. I would further suggest that archeologist might serve your purpose slightly better too.

If not then beyond that I would consider the tried and true dex focused scimitar weapon finesse catfolk.

But two ninja levels. Seriously, it's an extra attack and if you take vanish trick you have an awesome way to be a bit more like the cheshire cat... and who wouldn't want that?

Did I mention that REALLY I hate dyslexia sometimes?

Are we talking about the same Arcane Duelist?

How does a ninja get an extra attack by chance?


Yes we are, I just feel you could get more use out of archeologist archetype instead as it opens up options (in the form of ninja tricks and rogue talents) that you can't get from the arcane duelist.

That said, if the arcane duelist the the archetype you want, then go with it, it's strong too. I stand by my recommendation of 2 levels of ninja though, it's what I did with my catfolk bard and I didn't regret it at all.


Abraham spalding wrote:

Yes we are, I just feel you could get more use out of archeologist archetype instead as it opens up options (in the form of ninja tricks and rogue talents) that you can't get from the arcane duelist.

That said, if the arcane duelist the the archetype you want, then go with it, it's strong too. I stand by my recommendation of 2 levels of ninja though, it's what I did with my catfolk bard and I didn't regret it at all.

Sorry, how do I get the extra attack you mentioned please?


Spending a point of Ki to get an extra attack when the ninja performs a full round action. Spending the point is a swift action.
You get the ki pool ability at 2nd level, as a ninja.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:

Yes we are, I just feel you could get more use out of archeologist archetype instead as it opens up options (in the form of ninja tricks and rogue talents) that you can't get from the arcane duelist.

That said, if the arcane duelist the the archetype you want, then go with it, it's strong too. I stand by my recommendation of 2 levels of ninja though, it's what I did with my catfolk bard and I didn't regret it at all.

Sorry, how do I get the extra attack you mentioned please?
Quote:

At 2nd level, a ninja gains a pool of ki points, supernatural energy she can use to accomplish amazing feats. The number of points in the ninja’s ki pool is equal to 1/2 her ninja level + her Charisma modifier. As long as she has at least 1 point in her ki pool, she treats any Acrobatics skill check made to jump as if she had a running start. At 10th level, she also reduces the DC of Acrobatics skill checks made to jump by 1/2 (although she still cannot move farther than her speed allows).

By spending 1 point from her ki pool, a ninja can make one additional attack at her highest attack bonus, but she can do so only when making a full attack. In addition, she can spend 1 point to increase her speed by 20 feet for 1 round. Finally, a ninja can spend 1 point from her ki pool to give herself a +4 insight bonus on Stealth checks for 1 round. Each of these powers is activated as a swift action. A ninja can gain additional powers that consume points from her ki pool by selecting certain ninja tricks.

The ki pool is replenished each morning after 8 hours of rest or meditation; these hours do not need to be consecutive. If the ninja possesses levels in another class that grants points to a ki pool, ninja levels stack with the levels of that class to determine the total number of ki points in the combined pool, but only one ability score modifier is added to the total. The choice of which score to use is made when the second class ability is gained, and once made, the choice is set. The ninja can now use ki points from this pool to power the abilities of every class she possesses that grants a ki pool.


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Straight-up ninja'd on the subject of ninjas


Cool, thank you.
What weapon/s and feats do you suggest?


Archaeologist has nonscaling performance rounds and doesn't benefit your allies. Not a good choice of archetype unless you absolutely need trap handling.

The ninja dip will hurt your BAB, hurt your fortitude and will saves, slow your performance progression, and slow your casting progression. It's not a good deal in the long run. Ki isn't worth it.


Atarlost wrote:

Archaeologist has nonscaling performance rounds and doesn't benefit your allies. Not a good choice of archetype unless you absolutely need trap handling.

The ninja dip will hurt your BAB, hurt your fortitude and will saves, slow your performance progression, and slow your casting progression. It's not a good deal in the long run. Ki isn't worth it.

Well, could you present a build please? Maybe stats and feat list?


A build isn't needed for proof. You're going to have pretty much the same stat distribution and feat progression for pretty much any option here. Archaeologist is going to lose a feat to arcane strike, but you're not strapped for feats unless you try to do something fancy.

What matters is the class features.

If you dip two levels out of bard into ninja you will be behind in your inspire courage progression for 1/3 levels thereafter. You will be down 1 will and 2/3 of levels you will be down 1 fortitude. You will be down 4 spells/day and 2/3 of your levels your highest spell level will be lower. You will be down 4-5 spells known, at least one of which is at your highest level. For 1/2 of your levels after the dip you will be down 1 BAB. Discordant voice will be delayed by 2 levels.

Going from AD to archaeologist you lose 2 performance rounds per level past the first and your allies lose your inspire courage bonus. The rogue talents are useless for combat. You have to pay for arcane strike but don't have anything better to do with your level 1 feat and can shift your flavor feats down since you won't qualify for discordant voice (another reason not to use this archetype)

If you're going to have item access your charisma should be 12. That will last you until you can start affording headbands. You want at least 12 constitution, probably 14. In the long run I'd expect to get a +2 dex ioun stone so you can so can reserve your belt for strength and maybe con so you want 14 dex to max out mithril fullplate. You can then afford 17 strength and can afford to buy one of int or wis back up to 8. All your level ups will go into strength.

Your want weapon focus and power attack fairly early, but don't need to rush them. Your level 11 (13 with the ninja dip) feat is discordant voice. You will want iron will early to compensate for your poor wisdom. You can use the rest of your feats for luxuries.


Atarlost wrote:
A build isn't needed for proof. You're going to have pretty much the same stat distribution and feat progression for pretty much any option here. Archaeologist is going to lose a feat to arcane strike, but you're not strapped for feats unless you try to do something fancy.

Was actually looking for builds in general, as stated from OP. Not looking for any more proof.


I gave stat distribution in the penultimate paragraph of my last post.

For feats I'd go something like:
1: iron will
3: weapon focus (longsword)
5: power attack
7: whatever
9: whatever
11: discordant voice
13: whatever
15: whatever
17: whatever
19: whatever

I was misremembering the Discordant Voice prerequisites. It's a skill not bard level so the ninja dip doesn't effect the timing on it (just the BAB and saves and casting and performance progression). If you do decide to dip ninja the feat plan doesn't change.


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This isn't exactly what you're looking for I know, but this is the build our Arcane Duelist has been using and to great effectiveness (an optimized melee fighter obviously wouldn't be a Bard):
.
.
.
Human 20th level Arcane Duelist
Focused Study, Favored class option for Bards

Attributes: (20 point build)
STR - 15 (+2 racial bonus, +1 at 4th level)
DEX - 12
CON - 12
INT - 10
WIS - 12
CHA - 15 (+1 at 8th, 12th and 16th level)

Traits:
Reactionary
Focused Mind

Feats:
1st - Arcane Shield*
1st - Skill Focus: Knowledge (Arcana)
1st - Arcane Strike
1st - Arcane Armor (Light and Shields)
2nd - Combat Casting
3rd - Improved Initiative
5th - Eldritch Heritage - Arcane Bloodline (Arcane Bond - Shield)
6th - Disruptive
7th - Spell Focus: Enchantment
8th - Skill Focus: Diplomacy
9th - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
10th - Spellbreaker
10th - Arcane Armor (Medium)
11th - Discordant Voice
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage - Arcane Bloodline (New Arcana: 13th level - Dimension Door, 15th level - Feeblemind, 17th level - Transformation)
14th - Penetrating Strike
15th - Spell Penetration
16th - Skill Focus: Perception
16th - Arcane Armor (Heavy)
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage - Arcane Bloodline (School Power - Enchantment)
18th - Greater Penetrating Strike
19th - Greater Spell Penetration

A few things:

Bards normally get limited progression on spells and other abilities, I find when possible you're almost always better off not multi-classing, even to dip. Human was chosen due to its Focused Study option which both provided the Eldritch Heritage pre-requisite for free and gave some nice bumps to oft-used skills besdies and for its favored class option for Bards which greatly expands the spell-casting options it has.

At 5th level, you gain Arcane Bond from the Eldritch Heritage feat as well as Arcane Bond from the Arcane Duelist class feature, giving you 2 additional spells each day which is a huge boon for a limited caster. Combined with the Human favored class option and the other Eldritch Heritage feats, this Arcane Duelist is a not inconsequential spellcaster in his own right.

He wields a rapier and small steel shield, the shield allowing him to carry somethign like a wand or metamagic rod in his off-hand. At first level he gets Arcane Strike and takes Arcane Shield - not the official Pathfinder Arcane Shield but rather this is one of the very, very few instances we allowed a 3PP feat because it fit so nicely, the Arcane Shield found here. The rapier and shield are both Bonded items, it makes sense that the Arcane Duelist would be able to use his magical powers offensively or defensively.

This character has proven to be a very effective caster, a solid healer, a world-class buffer, an awesome face man and a damned strong secondary fighter - spells like Dance of a Hundred Cuts, Transformation, etc. can go a long way in melee, and his Enchantment spells are as potent as your typical Wizard's. I figured I'd offer the build up so that you could glean what you would from it.

One last comment - If you play primarily to the Bard's melee abilitities and neglect the other aspects of him, you're really selling yourself and the class short. He'll never be as effective a melee combatant as any of the full BAB classes, but he shouldn't be because he can do SO MANY other things and do them superbly well...

EDIT: I'm readoing over the Catfolk entry for the first time... seems like they'd make a damn fine Rogue. I might have to play with that a bit.


The melee bard doesn't just melee. Even with barely enough charisma to cast his spells he's still a first rate buffer.

You can emphasize casting. Dirge of doom drops saving throws enough you can be viable. You don't have to emphasize casting, though, because the bard list has so many good harmless or no save spells your casting won't be wasted even if you can't land a saving throw to save your life.

It's probably better to not emphasize casting. If you emphasize casting you're severely weakened against anything immune to mind effecting effects, especially undead who are immune to all the low level sonics as well because they have fortitude saves.

Scarab Sages

Personally, I would go Kensai 3, Arcane Duelist 13, Kensai 4. Another option would be magus 4, Arcane Duelist 16.

Take spell blending at 3 and use Dervish Dance + Spell Combat as a bard. If going standard magus, you can cast in a mithral breastplate with no spell failure.


Does Discordant Voice effect the bard using the ability?

Discordant Voice

By singing out a precise tone, you cause discordant vibrations to run through allies’ weapons.

Prerequisites: Bardic performance class feature, Perform (oratory or sing) 10 ranks.

Benefit: Whenever you are using bardic performance to create a spell-like or supernatural effect, allies within 30 feet of you deal an extra 1d6 points of sonic damage with successful weapon attacks. This damage stacks with other energy damage a weapon might deal. Projectile weapons bestow this extra damage on their ammunition, but the extra damage is dealt only if the projectile hits a target within 30 feet of you.


Alright here is what I have so far. I am going for total personal feats. Wish there was a feat to up the speed at which I can activate bardic performance, would take it in a heart-beat. Anyone have any suggestions of better choices?

Catfolk
18pt buy
Ability Scores (Cost)
Str: 17 (13) (+5 From leveling) (+6 From book:heritage)
Dex: 13 (1)
Con: 14 (5)
Int: 7 (-4)
Wis: 8 (0)
Cha: 16 (5) (+1 from book: minimum)

Feats:
1st - Weapon Focus: Falchion
1st - Arcane Strike
1st - Arcane Armor (Light and Shields)
2nd - Combat Casting
3rd - Skill Focus: Knowledge Plaines
5th - Eldritch Heritage: Abyssal
6th - Disruptive
7th - Lingering Performance
8th - Improved Initiative
9th - Toughness
10th - Spellbreaker
10th - Arcane Armor (Medium)
11th - Eldritch Heritage, Greater: Abyssal (Strength Bonus)
13th - Dimensional Agility
14th - Penetrating Strike
15th - Dimensional Assault
16th - Dimensional Dervish
16th - Arcane Armor (Heavy)
17th - Dimensional Savant
18th - Greater Penetrating Strike
19th - ?

Honestly speaking, this class just screams Two Weapon Fighting. You have flat bonuses to hit and damage all attacks, Penetrating Strike feats for free, plus my race choice. Will come up with another build with that in mind. Guess I will be another dual kukri, but I am getting board of that, wish there was another weapon that granted some different options of damage type.

Again any suggestions would be great.


I don't know where you are getting the Improved Toughness feat from.

By the way, most of the complaints about your arcane duelist's "ineffectiveness" have come from you. TWF is inherently less accurate - that is the trade off for swinging more often. Several suggestions have been made to help your character. The complaints came from playing a two shield fighter. So far the videos have failed to convey the badassery you see in itto the rest of us.


Turin the Mad wrote:
I don't know where you are getting the Improved Toughness feat from.

Ah thanks, old habit from 3.5.

Turin the Mad wrote:
By the way, most of the complaints about your arcane duelist's "ineffectiveness" have come from you. TWF is inherently less accurate - that is the trade off for swinging more often. Several suggestions have been made to help your character. The complaints came from playing a two shield fighter. So far the videos have failed to convey the badassery you see in itto the rest of us.

edits:

Well, I am giving up on TWF entirely if it makes a more effective character. Using shields actually made the character MORE effective mechanically, but purely due to mechanics. I have really fallen for this class more so than the fighting style. Back in the Final Fantasy XI days the character did use a Two handed Weapon, so perhaps going back to this is fine. I just hoped with the openness of a table top game I would be able to fix things more to my creative ideal rather than the rigid rules of a computer game and remain effective. In all honesty I have gotten a bit fed-up with the limitations of PF in building this concept and I am thinking about just writing my own class and seeing if I can get it published at this point.

P.S.
Its fine you don't like the fighting style. I am just irritated that I am getting such a resistance to the concept, but I have decided to work with you and let it go for now.

P.P.S.
Also, the fighting style didn't become effective till almost end-game so it really doesn't fit the class due to non-full base attack bonus.


Grab quicken spell at level 19 -- for those rounds you don't do the d.door dash.


Captain Sir Hexen Ineptus wrote:
Turin the Mad wrote:
I don't know where you are getting the Improved Toughness feat from.

Ah thanks, old habit from 3.5.

Turin the Mad wrote:
By the way, most of the complaints about your arcane duelist's "ineffectiveness" have come from you. TWF is inherently less accurate - that is the trade off for swinging more often. Several suggestions have been made to help your character. The complaints came from playing a two shield fighter. So far the videos have failed to convey the badassery you see in itto the rest of us.

edits:

Well, I am giving up on TWF entirely if it makes a more effective character. Using shields actually made the character MORE effective mechanically, but purely due to mechanics. I have really fallen for this class more so than the fighting style. Back in the Final Fantasy XI days the character did use a Two handed Weapon, so perhaps going back to this is fine. I just hoped with the openness of a table top game I would be able to fix things more to my creative ideal rather than the rigid rules of a computer game and remain effective. In all honesty I have gotten a bit fed-up with the limitations of PF in building this concept and I am thinking about just writing my own class and seeing if I can get it published at this point.

P.S.
Its fine you don't like the fighting style. I am just irritated that I am getting such a resistance to the concept, but I have decided to work with you and let it go for now.

P.P.S.
Also, the fighting style didn't become effective till almost end-game so it really doesn't fit the class due to non-full base attack bonus.

So you are liking arcane duelist but not two weapons combat?

There are very few true "open design" game systems. PF is not as open as you want it to be, inherited from d20. A lot can be done with it with the caveat that one must acknowledge those limitations. Being the best at TWF exacts a significant price that is not easy to pay for everyone but fighters and rangers (mostly).

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