How to make the Untouchable


Advice

Sovereign Court

Gonna start up a campaign again soon and was looking at making a Monk that would wear you down just by outlasting. How to do it though? 20 Point buy. PF products only. And no magic items, as of right now. Thanks for any help in advance!


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Master of Many Styles with Crane and Snake Styles, boost Wisdom and Dex over all else.

There you go, a roadblock for your GM to come on here and make thread #178176871 about "How do I hit the OMG Supah Overpowered Monk" where everyone will answer "...Just have the enemies walk around him, he can't hit for s&+% it's not like he's a threat."


Rynjin wrote:

Master of Many Styles with Crane and Snake Styles, boost Wisdom and Dex over all else.

There you go, a roadblock for your GM to come on here and make thread #178176871 about "How do I hit the OMG Supah Overpowered Monk" where everyone will answer "...Just have the enemies walk around him, he can't hit for s~~# it's not like he's a threat."

^This...

Sovereign Court

Hah. Thanks! I find that I'm the one who the the Job done in most games. So any chance to stay alive and see the objective through while the uber damagers flex their epeens at each other whilst trying to out DPR each other works for me. And I can always pick up Weapon Finesse, right?


Whenever possible I'd suggest picking up a Guided weapon or Amulet of Mighty Fists if your GM will allow it. It'll let you use Wis for to-hit and damage.


If you can get a AoMF Tattoo or Unslotted and can stack their special abilities but not your +X bonus you can get a Unslotted Guided AoMF and a Slotted +X bonus one.

Kinda Costly but worth it if it makes you slightly S.A.D. Though you will never be like a Zen Archer.


Alternatively, I've heard people do wonders with a Flowing Monk with Crane style. He sits there and goes full defensive and defends not only himself but also his allies who are clustered around him.


Thinking of taking Crane Style next for my Grindylow MoMS monk, at level 8, using Boar, Panther and Crane, fighting defensively, move to provoke an AoO, slapping them in the face, swift trip for being a grindylow, then another attack for the bleed on panther style. And if I get that panther b*&#&slap out of the way, they take a penalty to their attack, which, if it hits, I can deflect and slap them AGAIN for hilarity's sake, which by this point should give me enough to do the Boar Style 3d6 bleed damage.

I know I am hijacking your thread a bit here but this is how I've managed to work my Monk.

Sovereign Court

I was thinking throwing the FM in there with MoMS. May start out with Snake and Crane and pick up panther along the way. Weapon Finesse and Combat Reflexes (and Combat expertise?), I need to slip those in there somewhere... Should I concentrate on Dex or Wisdom more? Cause as of right now I dont see much use for it. Other than the obvious.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Would not Halfling be best, with the numerous defensive feats?

Combined with Crane Style feats, the two should sync quite well.


Aazen wrote:
Gonna start up a campaign again soon and was looking at making a Monk that would wear you down just by outlasting. How to do it though? 20 Point buy. PF products only. And no magic items, as of right now. Thanks for any help in advance!

Another good option would be a Zen Archer with Snake Style - staying at range and being able to avoid 1-2 ranged attacks (including ranged touch attacks) every round goes a long way in a character's surviability. You're also likely to deal more damage with all those full attack actions and the boosted Perception and Sense Motive helps as well.


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Does it have to be a monk? Casters really do this so much better...

And is being untouchable restrcited to having great defense? Or is preventing the enemy from attacking you also count?

You could use something like Bewildering Koan to just plain keep someone from even acting.

Sovereign Court

StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Does it have to be a monk? Casters really do this so much better...

And is being untouchable restrcited to having great defense? Or is preventing the enemy from attacking you also count?

You could use something like Bewildering Koan to just plain keep someone from even acting.

Oh, that is so very wrong....


Aazen wrote:
StreamOfTheSky wrote:

Does it have to be a monk? Casters really do this so much better...

And is being untouchable restrcited to having great defense? Or is preventing the enemy from attacking you also count?

You could use something like Bewildering Koan to just plain keep someone from even acting.

Oh, that is so very wrong....

Near as I can tell it would prevent AN action, not all actions - i.e. wouldn;t someone still be able to attack as a standard action even if answering you prevented his move action?

At any rate, it burns up Ki points every round which tend to be in very short supply.

Sovereign Court

So feat progression?

1: Dodge, Crane Style, Crane Wing
2:
3:Snake Style
4:+1 Dex
5:Deflect Arrows
6:

??? Combat Finesse, Reflexes, Expertise I think should be in there somewhere.

Sovereign Court

A level of Unarmed Fighter or two can get you along in the style path stuff a level faster too, plus good HP and BAB and a bonus feat you could use for Dodge or something.


Aazen wrote:

So feat progression?

1: Dodge, Crane Style, Crane Wing
2:
3:Snake Style
4:+1 Dex
5:Deflect Arrows
6:

??? Combat Finesse, Reflexes, Expertise I think should be in there somewhere.

More like:

1: Dodge (Human), Crane Style, Snake Style (Bonus)
2: Crane Wing
3: Deflect Arrows
4: +1 Dex
5: Combat Reflexes
6: Snake Fang

Or thereabouts. That way you don't have to wait until level 9 to get Snake Fang.


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Or....

1 Crane Style [Unarmed Fighter 1]
1 Imp. Unarmed Strike [Unarmed Fighter 1]
1 Snake Style or Dodge
2 Crane Wing [MoMS 1]
3 Snake Style or Dodge
3 Snake Fang [MoMS 2]


Flowing monk does not get level 2 bonous feat. Prehaps he was thinking of using that archetype?


Not much point taking both snake and crane style if he was using flowing monk since he'd lack the ability to use them simultaneously.


Where did the OP say he was taking Flowing Monk? I thought he was doing Master of Many Styles? Hence my "MoMS" notation...

Lantern Lodge

If it does not have to be full monk then ive built the following a while back that may interest u.

-Race-
Human

-Classes-
Fighter (Lore Warden) 14/ Monk (Monk of the Four Winds / Monk of the Sacred Mountain) 2/ Ranger (Weapon and Shield) 2/ Rogue 2

-Stats-
STR 14 (+6 magic item) = 20
DEX 16 (+4 leveling)(+6 magic item) = 26
CON 15 (+2 racial)(+1 leveling) = 18
INT 14
WIS 10
CHA 08

-Saves-
fort 22
ref 22
will 13

ac 47 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 55
touch 24 (+5 combat expertise)(+3 fighting defensively) = 32
flat-footed 29

to hit with unarmed attacks with weapon finesse 26 (-4 combat expertise)(-1 fighting defensively) = 21

-Traits-
Threatening Defender

-Feat / Level Progression-
Ra01) Combat Reflexes, Stand Still
Ra02) Shield Focus
M 03) Elemental Fist, Dodge, Crane Style
M 04) Toughness, Deflect Arrows
F 05) Weapon Focus Unarmed Strike, Missile Shield
F 06) Combat Expertise, Weapon Finesse
F 07) Crane Wing
F 08) Saving Shield
F 09) Bodyguard
F 10) Crane Riposte
F 11) Draconic Defender
F 12) Greater Shield Focus
F 13) Disruptive
F 14) Spellbreaker
F 15) Pin Down
F 16) Ray Shield
F 17) Mobility
F 18) Spring Attack
Ro19) Whirlwind Attack
Ro20) Talent - Combat Trick (Weapon Specialization Unarmed Strike)

-Magic Gear-
Bracers of Armor(+8)
Mithril Heavy Shield (+5 Arrow Catching, Arrow Deflection)
Ring of Protection (+5)
Ring of Regeneration
Amulet of Natural Armor(+5)
Belt of Physical Might (+6 str / +6 dex)
Cloak of Resistance (+5)

-Tanking Method-
Fight with caster standing behind u since any thing that enters ur threaten area will not be able to exit ur threaten are via Stand Still and Pin Down as well all incoming missile attacks would veer towards u via Arrow Catching. When making an attack action fight defensively and use combat expertise to up personal ac and grant 1 adjacent party member a natural armor bonus equal to the dodge bonus from combat expertise and fighting defensively via Draconic Defender. Use AoO to grant aid another ac to an adjacent party member via Bodyguard and an immediate action grant shield bonus via Saving Shield. Negate 1 melee attack, 1 ranged spell attack, and 3 ranged missile attacks a round via Crane Wing, Ray Shield, Deflect Arrows, Missile Shield, and Arrow Deflection.


The Ultimate Caster Defender

Basically, you stand near/in front of the casters intercepting and redirecting attacks, knocking people over and stepping on their heads.

This build uses some errata'd rules that not everyone seems to be aware of. The first is that any weapon can be used to trip, even if it does not possess the Trip feature. The second is that a Small reach weapon can be used by a Medium creature in one had (with the usual -2 penalty for weapons of improper size). Third is that every 4 levels Fighters can Retrain a previously taken feat, replacing it with a more desirable feat that they now qualify for.

The Build!:

Starting Traits
Threatening Defender: -1 penalty when fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise
Suicidal (via Adopted): Once per day, redirect an attack from an adjacent ally to yourself.

1st level, Lore Warden Fighter 1
Weapon Focus (human bonus) Handy at early levels, especially if you are working with a lower point buy. Retrains to Improved Trip at 5th level
Combat Reflexes (1st level)
Bodyguard (fighter 1)
Use a reach weapon. At this point I'd recommend a Halberd or a Lucerne Hammer.

2nd Level, Lore Warden Fighter 2
In Harm's Way (fighter 2)
Combat Expertise (bonus, lore warden)
Start taking hits for your buddies

3rd Level, Lore Warden Fighter 3
Crane Style (3rd level)
When making Trip attempts Maneuver Master (lore warden 2) will cancel out the penalty you'll start having next level for using a weapon of Improper size.

4th Level, MoMS Monk 1
Crane Wing (monk 1)
You'll be tempted to ditch your armor at this point. Check the numbers before you decide. Most of the things monks lose for wearing armor aren't going to be important to you.

5th level, Lore Warden Fighter 4
Snake Style (5th level)
Vicious Stomp (fighter 4)
Retrain 1st level Combat Reflexes to Improved Trip.
This is where the build really takes off. At this point you switch to a Small reach weapon and take the -2 penalty for the size difference. This gives you a 1 handed reach weapon so you can use Crane Style.

6th level, MoMS Monk 2
Snake Sidewind (monk 2)

7th Level, Lore Warden 5
Open Feat Slot (7th level feat) Leadership, Lunge and Power Attack are good options. At later levels you may want to retrain this to Exotic Weapon Proficiency Fauchard to let you take advantage of Critical feats and it's high Crit range.

8th level, Lore Warden 6
Greater Trip (fighter 6) Now make 2 free AoOs on every successful trip!

9th level, Lore Warden 7
Crane Riposte (9th level)

10th level, Lore Warden 8
Snake Fang (fighter 8)

11th Level, Lore Warden 9
Butterfly Sting (11th level)

12th level, Lore Warden 10
Improved Critical Unarmed Strike (fighter 10)

Everything past this point is open. You are going to be making a lot of extra attacks, which ups your odds of a crit. Thus Critical feats are a good investment. Deflect Arrows is also nice since ranged defense is a build weakness.

If you can convince a buddy or two to take Seize the Moment with you, this build can get really, really nasty. It combines with Butterfly Sting to do really terrible things.

How it All Works:

This build is all about AoOs. Pump your Dex as high as you can. If you can somehow get Mythic Combat Reflexes, you win the game period.

When someone comes at your buddy, you redirect their attack to you (Suicidal trait, Bodyguard).

When someone attacks you (weather or not they meant to when they swung), you either negate it outright with Crane Wing, attempt to negate it with Snake Style or resolve it against your AC (which should be pretty high). Odds are, you don't get hit, then you knock them over and hit them a few times.

If your opponent is standing, every attack you make should be a trip attempt. When you trip someone you will get free attacks, one upon a successful trip attempt (Greater Trip. A quirk of the rules describes a successful Trip as "Matching or surpassing the opponent's CMD", so this bonus attack happens even if the baddie has a way of keeping from falling prone), and another attack when they hit the ground (Vicious Stomp).

Things you desperately want:

Enlarge person. With this build, bigger is better. A lot better.

Glove of Arrow Snaring. Ranged weapons are your bane.

Basic weapon enhancements. Don't bother with the fancy stuff. Just get that numerical bonus up as high as you can. That's your bread and butter.

Agile Enchantment on an Amulet of Mighty Fists. Your damage is going to be below average. This will help that a lot.

Keen Knuckle Axes (or any other way of getting slashing unarmed strikes). More crits is good, especially after you get Butterfly Sting.

Some build options:

Monk of the Sacred Mountain: Stacks with MoMS. Swaps Evasion for Toughness and a +1 natural armor bonus. Since you'll be aiming a lot of attacks toward you, this might be a good choice.

Drop Snake Style, take Archon Style: This makes you more Bodyguard-y and gives your buddies AoOs if you get hit. They'll like that. A good choice for a game with a larger than average number of warrior-type PCs. Stacks really well with the next option

Dip Cavalier: Any time after you pick up Improved Critical. Take Seize the Moment as your Tactician feat. Give it to everyone as a standard action. Gang beat things with your friends.


Um, you swap out combat reflexes at lvl 5 but then talk about getting multiple AoOs at lvl 8? Fail.

Dark Archive

Doomed Hero wrote:

The Ultimate Caster Defender

Basically, you stand near/in front of the casters intercepting and redirecting attacks, knocking people over and stepping on their heads.

This build uses some errata'd rules that not everyone seems to be aware of. The first is that any weapon can be used to trip, even if it does not possess the Trip feature. The second is that a Small reach weapon can be used by a Medium creature in one had (with the usual -2 penalty for weapons of improper size). Third is that every 4 levels Fighters can Retrain a previously taken feat, replacing it with a more desirable feat that they now qualify for.

** spoiler omitted **...

There are several problems with this build. First of all, you somehow grabbed Crane Style without any of the prerequisites at level 3. Neat, I don't know how you did that.

Second, there's the small reach weapon thing. It's dumb, and I would have a hard time respecting someone who abused something like that. Yes it's legal, no you probably shouldn't do it.

Third, Vicious Stomp only works if they fall adjacent to you. If you're tripping them from reach, they aren't falling adjacent to you.

Fourth, as Kazaan states, you traded out Combat Reflexes but are still acting like you have it. As a matter of fact, you cannot trade out Combat Reflexes because it is a prerequisite for Bodyguard.

Lastly, you seem to be suggesting both enlarge person and an agile amulet of mighty fists. Is this a strength build or a dexterity build?

That's not to say there's nothing good about the build. If I were to edit it to keep a lot of the spirit of what you've put together, I would change it as so:

1. Temple sword instead of small reach weapon. It doesn't have reach so you can use it with Vicious Stomp, and it's a trip weapon which means you can drop it if you fail to trip; you can also use it with Reposition, which is an amazing manoeuvre when you can't manage to trip.

2. More focus on moving/subduing your opponent and less focus on being completely untouchable. If you keep it like so, they won't want to touch you, because all you're doing is tripping them and then not doing anything after. I've thrown Dirty Trick and Reposition in, and taken out Snake Style.

My take on the lore warden/monk:
Lore Warden/Manoeuvre Master

Fig1 Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Power Attack
Mon2 Improved Unarmed Strike, Improved Trip, Stunning Fist
Fig3 Combat Expertise, Crane Style, Improved Reposition
Fig4 (not a dead level; +2 to CMB)
Mon5 Crane Wing, Improved Dirty Trick
Fig6 Vicious Stomp
Fig7 Greater Trip; Weapon Training +1
Fig8 Greater Dirty Trick
Fig9 Crane Riposte; +2 to CMB

It's not quite the same build, but it's certainly effective. I agree with you that armour should be considered, as both the MMOS and the MM lose very little from wearing it.

Liberty's Edge

If wanting pure monk, I have a build I have been using recently which has been a lot of fun. The build has high AC so that you can stand and take focus, but more importantly he is also a pain in the butt which gives the bad guys reason to want to try take you down.

Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Str: 16
Dex: 18 (20 with a belt recently bought)
Con: 13 (14 as of lvl 4 stat bump)
Int 7
Wis: 14 (16 with headband recently bought)
Cha: 7

Worshipper of Torag (important for trait)

Traits:

Defensive Strategist (Am not considered Flat Footed even when I have not yet acted in Combat - Very important as Dex is a big part of my AC)

Indomitable Will (+1 WIll save because it can never be too high)

Feats:

Lvl 1:
Vicious Stomp - Unarmed AoO when I trip someone (Important as I am too dumb for Combat Expertise and therefore Greater Trip)

Fury's Fall - Add Str and Dex when making a Trip (important again because no Greater Trip

Improved Trip - +2 when Tripping, no AoOs against me

Lvl 2 - Nothing due to losing bonus Feat from Archetype

Lvl 3:
Combat Reflexes - More AoO (Thank goodness!)

Lvl 5:
Dodge - +1 AC

Lvl 6:
Weapon Finesse - Use Dex for To Hit (My stomps were missing too much, taking this meant getting the Dex to 20 gives an extra +2 To Hit)

Lvl 7:
Crane Style - +3 AC for -2 To Hit (Negates my Weapon Finesse, have only just reached lvl 7 so not confirmed whether or not to take this)

Key aspects of the build:

The Wis was lower than Dex due to the high number of AoOs I can make, I needed heavy Dex, that and the fact it boosts my Trip.

AC is good enough to avoid a lot:
10+5(Dex)+1(Monk)+1(Sacred Mountain)+1(Dodge)+3(Wis)=21 AC

Pearl of Power means Wizard keeps Mage Armour on me for +4 AC
Ring of Protection gives +1 AC

So I have a standard AC of 26.
When staying in same spot that becomes 28 AC.
Every mob (up to 3) gives additional AC, so my stand still AC is typically 29-31.

At lvl 7 Quingong Monk gives me access to Barkskin for an additional +3 AC. So AC is now 32-34.

If I go with Crane Style that puts AC to 35-37. Course, if monster is on floor that effectively adds 4 more. Then there is Ki to spend if needs be

Offensively I think I am running with +16 for Trip (without Crane modifier).

The Pros to this build is that while I don't do big damage, I have up to 3 attacks plus AoOs which thanks to my Str means I do reasonable damage when not tripping.

The Con of this build is that staying still for a round can be tricky assuming the monster moves 5ft. Most the time I just accept this, though I do carry a reach weapon - obviously the Reach weapon does not allow me to Vicious Stomp, but it still allows me to stay still for extra AC if required and lets me perform my primary duty of controlling the situation.

So it is a very fun build. I even tripped a Spider once.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yes, any weapon can be used to Trip. But the Trip feature has something which can be of some importance, a protection against being counter tripped when Trip maneuver fails to work. Maybe your GM doesn't enforce that rule.... I do.

Liberty's Edge

Using a Trip weapon is always smart, as long at it is not with Reach you can still make use of Vicious Stomp. Course if you are a Monk of the Sacred Mountain, assuming you start and end in the same spot, you cannot be countertripped anyway

Dark Archive

I like trip weapons for Reposition and Drag best. They're the only weapons you can use to perform these manoeuvres, which means a fighter who Drags or Repositions is going to seriously benefit from Weapon Training a trip weapon.


Mergy wrote:
stuff

1st) Forgot about the Dodge prereq. Swap Weapon Focus for it.

2nd) Your opinion is noted. It's also completely subjective. Historically, spears are, and have always been, usable in one hand. You shouldn't have to be a specific kind of third level fighter to use a lightweight spear in one hand. If you don't want to use a reach weapon, fine. I like them.

3rd) As long as you haven't moved yet, after tripping with a reach weapon you can take a 5' step to take advantage of Vicious Stomp. Read the 5' adjust rules. You can do it as a free action between attacks. You could even trip someone, take your Greater Trip attack at reach, then 5' in to take your Vicious Stomp attack (they are all part of the same attack sequence).

4th) Oops. That's a typo. It should say "retrains weapon focus to improved trip." (see the level one entry where I got it right). Because of the need for Dodge this isn't an option anymore, sadly. Guess it has to wait for a later level.

5th) Yes. Enlarge for additional Reach and additional spacing so you can be adjacent to more allies (maximizing the effect of Bodyguard). You aren't doing it for damage. You'll actually take a -1 hit/damage penalty. No big deal considering the reach benefit. Similar effect could be gained with Longarm Bracers, but they are only usable 3x per day, so some reliable way of Enlarging is better.

Why you think Reposition and Dirty Trick are better than Snake Style, I don't think I'll ever understand.

As for the "they'll avoid you if you're untouchable" thing, well, yeah. They'll try. That's why you have Bodyguard. They try to avoid you. You get in the way, take the attacks on yourself, and then punish them for it.

Sovereign Court

Cant you be a flowing monk AND MoMs? Im using Herolab and hadnt noticed any hiccups.


They both replace the Bonus Feats.


Doomed Hero wrote:
3rd) As long as you haven't moved yet, after tripping with a reach weapon you can take a 5' step to take advantage of Vicious Stomp. Read the 5' adjust rules. You can do it as a free action between attacks. You could even trip someone, take your Greater Trip attack at reach, then 5' in to take your Vicious Stomp attack (they are all part of the same attack sequence).

I'd debate this. Considering that an AoO pre-empts the action that provokes it, your AoO would land in the moment before the falling prone takes place. It's questionable as to whether your 5' step as part of the trip action would resolve before the falling prone resolves since AoOs interrupt normal battle flow. It might work since, technically, falling prone is a separate action from "being tripped", but it depends on whether the "force falling prone" is, itself, a non-action joined at the hip to the "trip" action.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

By the way, this PC needs to wear Parachute pants.

Sovereign Court

blackbloodtroll wrote:
By the way, this PC needs to wear Parachute pants.

Cqtm. Well, he is a monk. And I was thinking of making him Vadruni or Keleshite.


Kazaan wrote:
I'd debate this. Considering that an AoO pre-empts the action that provokes it, your AoO would land in the moment before the falling prone takes place. It's questionable as to whether your 5' step as part of the trip action would resolve before the falling prone resolves since AoOs interrupt normal battle flow. It might work since, technically, falling prone is a separate action from "being tripped", but it depends on whether the "force falling prone" is, itself, a non-action joined at the hip to the "trip" action.

Debate Away.

You can take a 5' step in between attacks, and iterative and free attacks do not have to be made with the same weapons as the first.

Seems pretty straight forward to me.

How fast do you think you could step forward and kick someone who's legs you'd just hooked with a stick? My bet is that if you are in half-way good shape, it would take you about a half a second.

Dark Archive

Of course you can take a five-foot step between attacks. I would argue, however, that you cannot take a five-foot step during your attack, or during someone else's fall. By the time you five-foot step, they are already prone on the ground, and you have missed the opportunity to use Vicious Stomp.


Depends how fast they fall to the ground and how quickly you can move into position. There's more than one way to make someone fall down. Some might involve lifting them off the ground a bit to throw them off balance first.


@Doomed:
I refer you to this thread regarding 5' step during a reach-trip. The recipient of a trip falls prone instantly by game mechanics. He also has to fall prone adjacent to you for you to take VS AoO. So once you roll for trip and succeed, the target is instantly on the ground; there's no room, mechanics wise, for a 5' step because you'd have to be already 5' away when they fall prone to benefit from VS. You can't 5' step simultaneous with your attack because you have to maintain reach distance. So, it's a no-go. You can take a 5' step between attacks, that's fine. But you can't take a 5' step between a provoking action that you don't threaten and taking an AoO. I could see, however, being already adjacent to a target and using your 5' step to move to another adjacent spot and taking the AoO simultaneous with the 5' step.

X is you, A is a person falling prone.
OOO
OXA
OOO

You take a 5' step "down" and still take your AoO because you maintained threat distance:

OOO
OOA
OXO


I disagree. A 5' step can be taken as part of another action, before during or after. I can 5' adjust immediately after my trip attempt, even before I know if it's successful or not.

By the time the opponent hits the ground, I'm already in place.

If the trip is unsuccessful, oh well. I'm close now. Time to switch to fists for the rest of that full attack.

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