Speed+Speed+Haste?


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5 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

Please excuse the intentionally mistaken title. In a discussion on the advice forum some people made the mistaken claim that the Speed property stacks with Haste and also that Speed would stack with itself if the property were on different weapons. So as to not derail the thread I am making a new thread here so that a discussion can take place. Also, a claim was made that SKR said in the FAQ that the Speed property on an AoMF would give extra attacks to all natural weapons but was disallowed because the combination was too strong so I am posting the relevant FAQ here.

FAQ wrote:

Amulet of Mighty Fists: If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as bite/claw/claw) wears an amulet with the speed property, does it get one extra attack with each of its natural weapons?

No... mainly because that combination is way too good for monsters with multiple attacks, and gets better the more natural attacks a monster has. Doubling a creature's attacks per round is really powerful, even for 80,000 gp (the price of a +4 amulet).

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11 Back to Top


Shinigaze wrote:
some people made the mistaken claim that the Speed property stacks with Haste and also that Speed would stack with itself if the property were on different weapons.

So some people was wrong on a forum. Is there a question hidden somewhere?

They don't stack... Read haste or speed or any of the "extra attack" abilities/spells they all say - don't stack..

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

My thought on the matter was also that the Speed property specifically says it does not stack with Haste or similar effects, so even if an AoMF applied the Speed property to every hand on a marilith, she'd still only end up with one extra attack.

I know others tried to counter this with arguments about Speed being limb specific etc., but since the Haste property doesn't designate a particular limb or weapon, I don't see why Speed, which doesn't stack with Haste, would somehow stack with additional instances of itself.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Bigtuna wrote:
Shinigaze wrote:
some people made the mistaken claim that the Speed property stacks with Haste and also that Speed would stack with itself if the property were on different weapons.

So some people was wrong on a forum. Is there a question hidden somewhere?

They don't stack... Read haste or speed or any of the "extra attack" abilities/spells they all say - don't stack..

This argument was derailing another thread on a completely different topic, so this thread was created so that any who wished to continue the discussion could do so without further derailments. I agree that it seems pretty cut and dry, but several other people apparently thought otherwise.


Bigtuna wrote:

So some people was wrong on a forum. Is there a question hidden somewhere?

They don't stack... Read haste or speed or any of the "extra attack" abilities/spells they all say - don't stack..

The question I guess is hidden in the fact that I said that people were arguing about this issue, so I guess the question is does Speed stack with itself if the property is on a separate weapon? I opened a thread in the proper forum so that the people having an argument about this issue would not derail the original thread, I don't understand your need to post a snarky response.


Speed: "(This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)"

If the Speed enchantment is similar enough to the haste spell to not stack, why isn't it similar enough to another weapon with the Speed enchantment to not stack?

speed effects, whether they come from multiple speed weapons or multiple haste spells or any combination of the two, do not stack. You can only ever gain 1 additional attack from a haste effect in a round.


Good! The relevent rules and quotes from devs have been posted, now we just need the person who was arguing against it to come to the thread so we can see if he is convinced.


snarky response - that wasn't my intention. i just didn't understand the topic. The post after mine cleared that up...


Well then I apologize if I came off as overly harsh. Tone not translating well over the internet I sometimes mistake what people are trying to say.


I would like to specify that James Jacobs has been overruled before.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
I would like to specify that James Jacobs has been overruled before.

Though that's unlikely to happen when the rule in question is pretty explicitly stating the same thing he's commenting on.


It only explicitly states for that weapon.

Silver Crusade

All that means is you can only use the extra attack with that weapon, rather than any weapon. It is an inferior form of the effect of Haste. The magic in the weapon affects the wielder.

Speed property wrote:
"When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)"

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Azaelas Fayth wrote:
It only explicitly states for that weapon.

Actually, the Speed property doesn't say anything about its property not stacking "only for that weapon". It says it doesn't stack with Haste or similar effects. Haste doesn't target a weapon, you get the ability to choose. Speed is just an inferior version of Haste that is permanently attached to a single weapon. If you have six Speed weapons in six arms, you'll still only have one extra attack, though you have the benefit of being able to choose which arm/weapon gets the extra attack.


Shinigaze wrote:

Please excuse the intentionally mistaken title. In a discussion on the advice forum some people made the mistaken claim that the Speed property stacks with Haste and also that Speed would stack with itself if the property were on different weapons. So as to not derail the thread I am making a new thread here so that a discussion can take place. Also, a claim was made that SKR said in the FAQ that the Speed property on an AoMF would give extra attacks to all natural weapons but was disallowed because the combination was too strong so I am posting the relevant FAQ here.

FAQ wrote:

Amulet of Mighty Fists: If a creature with multiple natural attacks (such as bite/claw/claw) wears an amulet with the speed property, does it get one extra attack with each of its natural weapons?

No... mainly because that combination is way too good for monsters with multiple attacks, and gets better the more natural attacks a monster has. Doubling a creature's attacks per round is really powerful, even for 80,000 gp (the price of a +4 amulet).

—Sean K Reynolds, 07/29/11 Back to Top

RAW they don't stack with each other. But you can benefit from all three. RAW, speed gives THAT weapon an extra attack. If you are wielding a pair of speed weapon (both would be equivalent to a +5 magic weapon it their own right) and were hasted, you could take an additional attack from haste with a natural or manufactured weapon but not with the speed weapon.

For example, let's say you have a Fighter who is wielding a pair of +1 speed short swords and armor spikes. A RAW legal attack routine would be:

sword1/sword1(speed)/sword2/sword2(speed)/armorspike/armorspike(haste)

While an illegal attack routine would be:

sword1/sword1(speed)/sword1(haste)/sword2/sword2(speed)

EDIT: Also, RAW, yes the amulet applies to each natural attack. Sean doesn't actually say why it doesn't work. Just that it shouldn't work because it's too awesome (which is debatable, as I've done experiments with it to try and push damage with it as a barbarian/fighter/druid in forms with excessive natural attacks {like a gargantuan giant octopus} and still couldn't break it).

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Ashiel, that's still not correct. What you've described is exactly what SKR is saying doesn't happen, that is, each individual weapon with the Speed property getting its own special attack. JJ also made it pretty clear in the post linked in by Grick above that "speed effects, whether they come from multiple speed weapons or multiple haste spells or any combination of the two, do not stack. You can only ever gain 1 additional attack from a haste effect in a round."


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Ssalarn wrote:
Ashiel, that's still not correct. What you've described is exactly what SKR is saying doesn't happen, that is, each individual weapon with the Speed property getting its own special attack. JJ also made it pretty clear in the post linked in by Grick above that "speed effects, whether they come from multiple speed weapons or multiple haste spells or any combination of the two, do not stack. You can only ever gain 1 additional attack from a haste effect in a round."

That's not in accordance with the RAW. To clarify:

Speed Enhancement wrote:
Speed: When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)

"It" being the speed weapon.

Haste wrote:
When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The attack is made using the creature's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor does it actually grant an extra action, so you can't use it to cast a second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

RAW, the speed weapon gives you an extra attack with THAT weapon. Haste gives an extra attack with any weapon, but it cannot be a weapon that is affected by Speed.

You're free to do as you wish, but this is the Rules forum and RAW = Rules.


On another note, it's actually very well balanced and has functioned like this since 3.x. It's very good at preventing you from stacking extra attacks on a powerful weapon while also ensuring that speed weapons aren't worthless.

If merely being affected by Haste prevented speed weapons from not working, such weapons would be worth no more than a +1 enhancement ever, and even then it would be hard to justify since haste is the most common buff spell in the game and is available to martial characters in the very affordable form of boots of speed even in a party that has no casters at all (rare as that is).

A speed weapon costs a minimum of 32,000 gp and only affects itself. You could purchase roughly 3 different pairs of boots of speed (12,000 gp each and free-activation) for that price and the result is you are wielding an otherwise inferior weapon (a +1 sword for the cost of a 32,000 gp plus masterwork). EDIT: And the haste effect also provides bonuses to your movement speed, to-hit, AC, and reflex saves as well.

Arguing that they don't work in tandem is arguing for a design failure of the highest order.

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Ashiel wrote:
That's not in accordance with the RAW.

Ashiel, I think you're twisting the wording for RAW here a bit. Speed gives you an extra attack for that weapon, yes, but it doesn't stack with Haste. There is no qualifier that says "doesn't stack with Haste for this weapon". Similarly, Haste states it gives you an extra attack, and specifies that it is not cumulative with similar effects like Speed. Again, it doesn't specify that It doesn't stack with Speed for that weapon it just doesn't stack, period. That's RAW in this instance. Your interpretation, while preferable, requires a little inference that none of the written text or Paizo staff commentary supports.


If you are hasted and you take the extra attack from haste you CANNOT take another extra attack from a weapon that has speed...if you try to activate the ability of the weapon it DOES NOT STACK with haste...in the situation of "speed" or "haste" you ONLY EVER GET ONE EXTRA ATTACK...it has been CLEARLY stated by the devs and the rules...yes the speed weapon gives you an extra attack with that weapon...yes haste works with ANY weapon or natural attack...NO you cannot use both...you get one extra attack PERIOD...no if,and, or buts to it you only get one THEY DO NOT STACK

Furthermore I dont see how you can argue your point when the rules you quote clearly state the opposite...you even made the parts that argue against you in bold...(This effect is not cumulative) means they do not stack.

Level 6 fighter with TWF and Improved TWF (not adding anything to BAB for purpose of making it extremely simple)

attacks are +6/+1 +6/+1

if he is hasted they are +6/+6/+1 +6/+1 or....

if he uses a speed weapon the are +6/+6/+1 +6/+1

You get this many attacks no matter what...if you use your speed weapon while you are hasted you gain NOTHING...the "speed" on the weapon is just a lower version of the full buff you get from haste...its there so if you do not have a wizard or sorcerer to cast haste on you then you can always get an extra attack...if your caster gives you haste then you gain all the benefits of haste but lose the "speed" benefit of your weapon


The quote doesn't state the opposite. It clearly notes that the effects do not stack. But speed affects the weapon, haste affects the creature. Speed allows an extra attack with said weapon. Haste allows an extra attack with a weapon (but not a speed weapon). It's right there in black and white. And the alternative interpretation (which isn't strictly in accordance with the RAW) is mechanically problematic (because it makes a Speed weapon useless).

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

Ashiel wrote:
The quote doesn't state the opposite. It clearly notes that the effects do not stack. But speed affects the weapon, haste affects the creature. Speed allows an extra attack with said weapon. Haste allows an extra attack with a weapon (but not a speed weapon). It's right there in black and white. And the alternative interpretation (which is strictly in accordance with the RAW) is mechanically problematic (because it makes a Speed weapon useless).

It doesn't make a Speed weapon useless, just less useful than we'd probably all prefer it to be. Though ultimately, I think it's a solid ruling balance-wise, maybe only so-so for the players, and more for what they can reasonably expect to encounter. A marilith with 6 Speed swords may only be marginally increased in difficulty according to CR and creature wealth, but it's destructive potential has been violently increased. Similarly, Speed under your interpretation vastly favors TWF and multi-weapon fighters over any other character. An ability should be of approximately equivalent use to characters filling similar roles.


I think you're wrong on haste and speed being able to interact like that. The rules are pretty general; they don't stack in any way, and it specifically calls out speed weapons to make sure it's clear.

However, I think you're right about speed weapons stacking with each other. They have no such clause, and specify that the benefit they grant is for attacking with a specific weapon, and that's what doesn't stack.

That said, even if I were doing this I'd still want haste. Gotta go fast!


The RAW can be twisted to be interpreted as Ashiel has. Nobody in our group ever has, but we don't tend to be power gamers.

SKR and JJ both have stated that you only get one extra attack per round from any combination of haste and speed weapons. They have said this is RAW, not some errata ruling.

So the game designers have made their intentions clear so that RAI can be a guide to clarify RAW.

Anyone who still wants to get more than one extra attack per round from combinations of haste/speed is creating a house rule that is in direct contradiction to the game designers' intent.


yes but you were arguing that they can be used together...no one is arguing that one affects the weapon and the other the creature...and its not problematic...you can only gain one extra attack from either one or the other (never both)...as I stated speed is an enchant for people who do not have (or do not want to rely on) a caster to give them haste...speed isn't by any means "useless"

After a few more levels I am planning on getting my rogue/assassin a speed weapon since I tend to be the one going in alone and a lot of times fighting a few people by my lonesome (if they save against my death attack) while the rest of the party is waiting or continuing a different route...its not wise for me to need our caster to grant me haste EVERY time I sneak into somewhere alone just "in case" I run into trouble...so a speed weapon would not be a bad investment


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And just to give some food for thought...the best GM I ever had was when I played 3rd Ed...whenever someone would bring something like this (or any argument to rules) to the table...his response is one I always remember when I'm trying to find out if something works or not...he says the following

"Don't ask me where in the rules it says you cannot do something, your job as the player is to show me in the rules where it says you CAN do it."

Following this usually makes it a lot easier when trying to figure out if your "loop hole" around rules works and is a good argument to min/maxer's that say that very thing "where does it say I can't do it?"


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Drakkiel wrote:
yes but you were arguing that they can be used together...no one is arguing that one affects the weapon and the other the creature...and its not problematic...you can only gain one extra attack from either one or the other (never both)...as I stated speed is an enchant for people who do not have (or do not want to rely on) a caster to give them haste...speed isn't by any means "useless"

Except for the fact it is. Boots of speed is available earlier than speed weapons and is more powerful than speed weapons. Boots of speed can crafted by half of the core martials for 6,000 gp, and you can get roughly 3 sets of them for roughly the cost of a +1 speed weapon in market price vs market price. So even if it's just martials buying magic items, boots of speed are free-action activation, provide +1 to hit (which stacks with their weapon's enhancement bonus to hit), +1 to AC and Reflex (which stacks with resistance bonuses), +30 ft. to speed, AND provides an extra attack with ANY weapon EXCEPT a speed weapon (and unarmed strike but that's a system failing).

How on earth could you ever, ever, argue that speed weapons are at all not overpriced pieces of garbage when an item that is available much earlier and is more convenient and cheaper is so much more powerful and saves you on action economy, as opposed to a 32,300 gp minimum item that only allows +1 attack with that specific weapon (and not any weapon), and is otherwise neutered compared to any other weapon of similar cost (it doesn't add bonuses to hit or damage beyond a +1 weapon, it doesn't penetrate damage reduction, it doesn't add bonus damage of any sort, it only adds +1 attack)?

Seriously, at this point I don't even care about anything else concerning the topic, other than hearing as to how speed weapons aren't utterly useless with this interpretation. I'm legitimately curious. I want to know. Because this is one of the best laughs I've had all day.

It's like someone coming up and saying "Hey guys, shocking grasp is should totally be a 5th level spell, 'cause it's so awesome." when lightning bolt is 3rd level.

So either you have one interpretation that fits with the wording of the rules, makes sense, and works mechanically while giving props to everything, or you have the other which requires you to ignore how the two effects work and break one of the effects to the point of uselessness.

ಠ_ರೃ


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Drakkiel wrote:
"Don't ask me where in the rules it says you cannot do something, your job as the player is to show me in the rules where it says you CAN do it."

That is my philosophy as well. The alternative is stupid. However, the rules do say you can. It specifically says that you can make an extra attack with this weapon, but the effect doesn't stack with haste. Haste specifically says you can make an extra attack with any weapon, but it doesn't stack with speed or similar effects. Ergo, you can make an extra attack with a speed weapon and a non-speed weapon, but you cannot make two extra attacks with the same weapon, nor can you get multiple extra attacks with any weapon (as in the case of haste + divine power).

Silver Crusade

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Because there are other good boots. There seems to be a lot of "Well that makes this thing look weak then!" arguments that are really moot. The cynical tone doesn't do well.

Ultimately, you're assuming the speed property only has an effect on the weapon itself. That's wrong. It is affecting the wielder, allowing the creature to hit with that specific weapon again. The weapon doesn't twist and strike again, nor does it have a phantom that follows through on one swing. It is making the wielder attack faster. That is why it does not stack with itself.


Ssalarn wrote:
Ashiel wrote:
The quote doesn't state the opposite. It clearly notes that the effects do not stack. But speed affects the weapon, haste affects the creature. Speed allows an extra attack with said weapon. Haste allows an extra attack with a weapon (but not a speed weapon). It's right there in black and white. And the alternative interpretation (which is strictly in accordance with the RAW) is mechanically problematic (because it makes a Speed weapon useless).
It doesn't make a Speed weapon useless, just less useful than we'd probably all prefer it to be. Though ultimately, I think it's a solid ruling balance-wise, maybe only so-so for the players, and more for what they can reasonably expect to encounter. A marilith with 6 Speed swords may only be marginally increased in difficulty according to CR and creature wealth, but it's destructive potential has been violently increased. Similarly, Speed under your interpretation vastly favors TWF and multi-weapon fighters over any other character. An ability should be of approximately equivalent use to characters filling similar roles.

Please note that breaking the rules with monsters isn't a good argument. 6 speed swords would cost 193,800 gp. A marilith only has 62,000 gp with her treasure rating. You'd be giving the marilith roughly triple her already doubled treasure value to make such a situation work. And even then, the effects of such a crazy boost in equipment would be much stronger by simply giving her other magic items (such as amulets of natural armor, some armor, a cloak of resistance, maybe some ability score items, etc) for far, far cheaper.

When you have to create extreme situations that break the normal rules and guidelines for the game to create a corner case that still isn't impressively breaking stuff, you may wish to try a different argument.

The argument for NPCs and speed weapons is effectively impossible to make. NPCs always have less wealth than PCs, unless the GM breaks the guidelines and throws PC wealth on them. It's like trying to say that +5 weapons are unbalanced because giving them to 1st level orcs isn't a good idea.


Ashiel, it takes a special sort of chutzpah to completely and utterly disregard the clear interpretation of two developers who write and interpret the rules of this game for a living and tell them that they are wrong.

I have to give you credit for that. You've got a pair.


Nightskies wrote:

Because there are other good boots. There seems to be a lot of "Well that makes this thing look weak then!" arguments that are really moot. The cynical tone doesn't do well.

Ultimately, you're assuming the speed property only has an effect on the weapon itself. That's wrong. It is affecting the wielder, allowing the creature to hit with that specific weapon again. The weapon doesn't twist and strike again, nor does it have a phantom that follows through on one swing. It is making the wielder attack faster. That is why it does not stack with itself.

If it simply makes the wielder attack faster then it would apply to any weapon, as haste does. Also, keep in mind the boots are optional and only required if you lack a spellcaster (as someone tried to argue the sword was for when you lack a spellcster) and are bother cheaper and more powerful.

Yes, there are other good boots, but the boots of speed are competitive with them because of them being reasonably powerful in their price range. Simple enough. The same argument when applied to weapons applies too, except if speed weapons don't function as they say, then they are not competitive as a magic item, because virtually all other sorts of weapons and items around the same price range are clearly superior.

Worse yet, speed weapons are a +3 weapon equivalent, which means that the cost to put a speed property on a weapon is exponential. A +1 speed weapon is 32,000 gp, but a +2 speed weapon is 50,000 gp, and a +3 speed weapon is 72,000 gp.

If speed was a +1 enhancement I could maybe see it not being useless (the minimum you could acquire one for would be 8,300 gp which would make it reasonable prior to boots of speed) though it would be a permanent handicap on the weapon if you ever wanted to enhance it (because the moment haste is reasonably available, it's just a price penalty on your weapon).


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Ashiel, it takes a special sort of chutzpah to completely and utterly disregard the clear interpretation of two developers who write and interpret the rules of this game for a living and tell them that they are wrong.

I have to give you credit for that. You've got a pair.

Enlarge person has its uses. :P

EDIT: Though if it DOES work that way (which I think the text disagrees with), then this could be a good opportunity to revise the text and fix speed weapons. They said that the amulet of mighty fists gets an errata for being craptastic. Maybe now it's time for the speed property to get some errata for being craptastic.

'Cause, well, this has "monks" written all over it in the sense of "designers say one thing, text says another, breaks the game by making something woefully unplayable".

But right now, yeah, I'm more interested in how you guys think that the speed property is worth its weight under your interpretations.

EDIT: Such a great word Chutzbah. I like it. It's got a ring to it.


boots of speed only 10 rounds a day (i would love to meet the GM that only makes you fight 10 rounds a day) versus speed weapon the gives you extra attack EVERY time you full attack (average number of full attacks i do in one session is 30 or so at LEAST)...that would be the price difference reason...crafting is extremely time consuming unless you are playing a long module like kingmaker or something so they are 12,000g for boots not 6,000g (i mean if i had the time to craft them then sure but that quite a bit of time) but if your GM is cool with saying "yea sure, take 6 weeks off from adventuring your characters do nothing" then more power to ya...and as for you last comment

OMFG NO YOU CANNOT...the devs say it themselves...are you going to argue with the cop that pulls you over going 80 in a 30 mph zone giving you a ticket for reckless driving because you say you were in complete control of the vehicle?

You get one extra attack period...it lists haste as a similar effect but it mean ANY effect of the same type Haste, Speed (from weapon), Blessing of Fervor....those all fall under the same ruling that you can only benefit from one of them for an extra attack...ONE EXTRA ATTACK that's it

I'll try to explain it this way...

Fighter level 6 (not adding to BAB for simplicity's sake) has TWF and Improved TWF, has a +1 speed longsword and a +4 shortsword and has haste cast on him

you cannot BENEFIT from more than one of the effects so it goes...

+6/+6/+1 longsword +6/+1 shortsword normal (since you have speed on longsword) but you are hasted so you get another attack with your shortsword right? NO you benefited from one effect already so you DO NOT get another attack from being hasted

What part of "they do no stack" is so hard for you to understand? I mean if we go by your rules then someone can have improved critical and use it in conjunction with the "keen" weapon property right?


dot


OK, Ashiel, you want to argue that speed stacks with speed. That't fine, but let's stay civil, shall we?

I have to disagree with you on this based on one simple factor in the wording of the speed quality: "This quality is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell."

The speed quality is, by definition, similar to itself. If for no other reason, this should prove that it should not stack with itself, IMO.

That said, if your DM is willing to allow it to stack, that's up to them. However, should they restrict this quality from stacking with itself, they not only have the right to make that decision, they have my support and that of many of the other players on this thread.


Drakkiel wrote:
boots of speed only 10 rounds a day (i would love to meet the GM that only makes you fight 10 rounds a day) versus speed weapon the gives you extra attack EVERY time you full attack (average number of full attacks i do in one session is 30 or so at LEAST)...

Which is 3 boots of speed. Which you only need activate on rounds that you can full-attack to get +1 attack, +1 hit, +1 AC, +1 reflex. Again, if they were the same price, sure. Except the boots of speed are available much earlier, and by the time you can get so much as a +1 speed weapon you can use the same cash to get about 3 pairs of boots. Going from a +1 speed weapon to a +2 speed weapon is enough to buy an additional set of speed boots. From a +1 to a +3 speed weapon is enough for 3 additional pairs of boots.

Quote:
OMFG NO YOU CANNOT...the devs say it themselves...are you going to argue with the cop that pulls you over going 80 in a 30 mph zone giving you a ticket for reckless driving because you say you were in complete control of the vehicle?

I'll argue a cop trying to cite me for going 80 when I was actually going 55.

Quote:
You get one extra attack period...it lists haste as a similar effect but it mean ANY effect of the same type Haste, Speed (from weapon), Blessing of Fervor....those all fall under the same ruling that you can only benefit from one of them for an extra attack...ONE EXTRA ATTACK that's it

It doesn't say that.

Quote:
What part of "they do no stack" is so hard for you to understand? I mean if we go by your rules then someone can have improved critical and use it in conjunction with the "keen" weapon property right?

Nothing at all. I've already said they don't stack. That doesn't mean they cease functioning. One grants an extra attack with itself, the other grants an extra attack with any weapon. I've no problem with a speed weapon not gaining an extra attack from haste.

On A Side Note
Speed weapons haven't really changed since the game was made before Pathfinder. And it's not that hard to argue when the rule remains and probably wasn't written by either of the developers involved in the clarification (no disrespect implied, but the original rules were authored by Monte Cook, Skip Williams, and Jonathan Tweet according to the book).

It's been shown time and time again that developers do not always agree on things, and in this case we're basically looking at a rule that has been around for quite a while, wasn't errata'd, and at this point the devs are like us. It's not particularly hard to say "Nah, I think you're mistaken" given the circumstances. Especially true when it's repeatedly shown that the developers themselves aren't exactly sure of things and how they work in the rules. A great example is how Sean K. tried to overcomplicated unarmed attacks and say that you had to apply magic fang to each individual limb of a monk or character.

I'm not trying to be a douche. I'm just callin' 'em like I see 'em.


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well i can see this is no longer an argument or clarification for Pathfinder so I am stopping now...I cannot argue the rules of "The world according to Ashiel" and I won't even try...those are the rules...I will say one last thing

Quote:
Nothing at all. I've already said they don't stack. That doesn't mean they cease functioning. They have different effects.

I mean this line alone is enough that I don't HAVE to say anything but I will..."they don't stack" means that one does not work...they are similar effects....which mean by all definitions of the word "similar" that they are not different

I look forward to reading the CRB of "The world according to Ashiel" btw...will it have vampires? monkey people? Will it be based of Dark Souls so that people die everyone ten minutes or so until they learn better? I'm excited to play so get to writing!!!


Drakkiel, The World According to Ashiel may not have monkey people, but it has pet Tarrasques!

Ah, who am I kidding, it probably has monkey people too. Flying monkey people who can be used as PC races... :)


PC's first encounter...

"Is that a Mindflayer Blackguard riding a beholder mount?"

GM "Umm....well it says that's a CR 1 encounter so....yes...roll for initiative." /cry


Oh, & if you want to know why the speed property is priced so high, consider that it provides the same basic benefit of the haste spell in terms of an extra attack, but that that spell is 3rd lvl and lasts only 1rnd/lvl. So, by pricing guidelines it should be (as a use activated item):

Spell lvl x CL x 2,000gp x duration modifier =
3 x 5 x 2,000gp x 4 = 120,000gp

Even if you decrease the spell lvl to 2nd, & the CL to 3:

2 x 3 x 2,000gp x 4 = 48,000
Still well above the asking price.

-----

Versus boots of haste which cast 10 rnds/day (effectively 1/day broken up as desired, properly calculated as 50 charges spell trigger with the charges/day special modification):

Spell lvl x CL x 750gp x 1/5 =
3 x 5 x 750gp x 1/5 = 2250gp
Actually well below the asking price of 6,000gp. But then remember that prices must be modified by the functionality of the item, especially considering that it can be used in one round increments as a free action instead of using it all up in one go.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:

Drakkiel, The World According to Ashiel may not have monkey people, but it has pet Tarrasques!

Ah, who am I kidding, it probably has monkey people too. Flying monkey people who can be used as PC races... :)

Heheh, well as you know (since I did say in that thread) the tarrasque thing was a joke (legal, but a joke, kind of like Pun Pun was legal, but a joke). Though Pathfinder totally has flying monkeys. This as a wizard means you have flying monkies. :P

On a side note, the world according to Ashiel (IE - my campaign setting) actually doesn't have Vanaras, but I suppose if a druid and wizard got together...who knows?


Master_Crafter wrote:

Oh, & if you want to know why the speed property is priced so high, consider that it provides the same basic benefit of the haste spell in terms of an extra attack, but that that spell is 3rd lvl and lasts only 1rnd/lvl. So, by pricing guidelines it should be (as a use activated item):

Spell lvl x CL x 2,000gp x duration modifier =
3 x 5 x 2,000gp x 4 = 120,000gp

Even if you decrease the spell lvl to 2nd, & the CL to 3:

2 x 3 x 2,000gp x 4 = 48,000
Still well above the asking price.

Which would mean something if it was casting haste on you every time you swung your sword. Items that don't replicate the effects of spells don't generally have prices based on those spells. For example, an efreeti bottle uses planar binding as a requirement and it does technically bind an efreeti, but it is not planar binding anymore than +1 attack with a specific weapon is haste.

Quote:

Versus boots of haste which cast 10 rnds/day (effectively 1/day broken up as desired, properly calculated as 50 charges spell trigger with the charges/day special modification):

Spell lvl x CL x 750gp x 1/5 =
3 x 5 x 750gp x 1/5 = 2250gp
Actually well below the asking price of 6,000gp. But then remember that prices must be modified by the functionality of the item, especially considering that it can be used in one round increments as a free action instead of using it all up in one go.

You did the math for the boots of speed wrong. The boots of speed are priced exactly as the item creation rules say. That is CL 10 * spell level 3 * 2000 (use activated) divided by 5 (effects split into the equivalent of 1/day) and even gives a kicker effect of allowing you to split the rounds up.


Drakkiel wrote:

PC's first encounter...

"Is that a Mindflayer Blackguard riding a beholder mount?"

GM "Umm....well it says that's a CR 1 encounter so....yes...roll for initiative." /cry

Assuming the mindflayer has 2 levels of Blackguard, the CR of the encounter would be 14.


so you have 0 ranks in knowledge (sarcasm)?


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Drakkiel wrote:
so you have 0 ranks in knowledge (sarcasm)?

I think Ashiel is epic level in sarcasm Drakkiel.


Drakkiel wrote:
so you have 0 ranks in knowledge (sarcasm)?

Sarcasm is one of my favorite things. It's just generally that people attempting sarcasm usually reference something relevant or make a point on a topic.

I'm not really seeing what was sarcastic about your comment about CR. Nobody's said anything about CR, or encounters. Nobody said anything about blatantly ignoring the rules. I did say that I think the rules say X. I explained why I think the rules said X, and explain why the way it is written leads me to this. I explained why metagame analysis leads me to believe that between two possible explanations of X and Y, I believe it is X because X is both consistent with the wording while also facilitating play, whereas Y produces problems.

Kinda failing to see how your sarcasm fits in here. I'm probably am pretty new to this whole sarcasm thing though (I probably don't understand irony either), so thanks for clearing it up for me.


Adamantine Dragon wrote:
Drakkiel wrote:
so you have 0 ranks in knowledge (sarcasm)?
I think Ashiel is epic level in sarcasm Drakkiel.

I love you AD (no sarcasm, I promise)! ^.^


No reason to link your posts...I have read them...the quip about your 0 ranks in sarcasm was itself sarcasm (which I KNOW YOU KNOW...dont deny MUWHAHAHA!!!)

as for my post about CR...it had nothing to do with CR itself...I just thought in "the world according to Ashiel" that a Mindflayer Blackguard riding a Beholder mount would be FUNNY to be listed as a CR 1 encounter...as I said I was done arguing anything and was just having fun now :) as before in a post I will leave you with the Kirby Dance

<(")> <("<) <("^) <(")> (>")> (^")> <(")>


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Drakkiel wrote:
No reason to link your posts...I have read them...the quip about your 0 ranks in sarcasm was itself sarcasm (which I KNOW YOU KNOW...dont deny MUWHAHAHA!!!)

Heehee. Then I imagine you got the humor in my comment about probably not understanding irony. I do so love a good witty riposte and a game of wit-ninjas! :P

Quote:
as for my post about CR...it had nothing to do with CR itself...I just thought in "the world according to Ashiel" that a Mindflayer Blackguard riding a Beholder mount would be FUNNY to be listed as a CR 1 encounter...

Oh okay. :P

It would be kinda funny (like all those monks with spring-attack in the Paizo statblocks). Ever seen Stringburka's CR-breaking thread? It's hilarious (got some sort of CR 5 skeletal champion pit fiend with CL 20 SLAs :P).

Quote:

as I said I was done arguing anything and was just having fun now :) as before in a post I will leave you with the Kirby Dance

<(")> <("<) <("^) <(")> (>")> (^")> <(")>

Now you're talkin'! <(^.^)>

I leave you with Kirby's repressed memories!
(>(>O.o)>

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