Be watter, my friend! (Help evaluate my Tripping Flowing Monk)


Advice


Greetings!

I've made a particular build for a possible game coming soon, so I'd like the opinions of more experienced forum users regarding it.

The Build

Spoiler:

Human Monk (Flowing Monk, Monk of the Sacred Mountain)

Attributes (20 pts)
STR 10 00
DEX 19 04
CON 10 00
INT 13 01
WIS 14 02
CHR 09 -01

Weapons
Kama, double-chained 1d6/1d6 Reach 10ft. 20/x2

Traits

Desert Shadow (You move with a quick and quiet grace and your enemies are often taken unawares by your silent speed. When using the Stealth skill to move at full speed you no longer suffer a -5 penalty on your Stealth skill check.)

Adopted (Perseverance - In time, any obstacle can be endured and overcome. When you have more than 1 Will saving throw to overcome an effect (such as greater command, hold person, or by using the good fortune ability of the Luck domain), you receive a +3 trait bonus on the extra Will saves against that effect.)

FEATS and Habilities

1- FEAT (Dodge), FEAT (Crane Style), FEAT (Weapon Finesse)*, Flurry of Blows, Redirection*, Unarmed Strike
2- Unbalancing Counter*, FEAT (Toughness)*, AC +1 Natural
3- FEAT (Improved Trip), Flowing Dodge*, Maneuver Training4- Ki Pool (magic), Bastion Stance*
5- FEAT (Crane Wing), Elusive Target*, Iron Limb Defense AC +2/+4 Shield*
6- FEAT (Combat Reflexes)*
7- FEAT (Combat Expertise), Wholeness of Body
8-
9- FEAT (Greater Trip), Adamantine Monk DR 1/-*
10- FEAT (Spring Attack)*, Ki Pool (Lawful)

So this is another tripping variant, making AoOs to trip foes, and hit them in the ground. Thats basic.

The turning point is that Redirection gives me a +2 or +4 bonus to Trip, if the foe is Power Attacking or Charging (or both), just noting that a charging enemy looses -2 to his CMD. In addition, Improved and Greater Trip nets another +4 bonus to Trip, but that is basic.

Another strategy is not getting hit.

My defense lines are:

1- AoO due to reach weapon;
2- Redirection (before attacker rolls)
3- High AC (during attack)
4- Block (after hit) with Crane Wing
5- Roll REF for half damage
6- Apply DR

So, this build is a battlefield controller, that can not be Tripped back (Bastion Stance), has Reach, has Multiple Attacks (including AoO), can negate many attacks and heal himself.

Am I missing something?

Thanks for reading!

Liberty's Edge

Certainly a fine strategy. I have been playing around with my own Monk Tripper but appraoched it a little differently to yours - I pumped strength and dumped Cha and Int (I know, shame on me). He is currently lvl 7 and has been Most Valuable Player many a time in own games.

Human Quingong Flowing Monk of the Sacred Mountain

Str: 16
Dex: 18 (20 with a belt recently bought)
Con: 13 (14 as of lvl 4 stat bump)
Int 7
Wis: 14 (16 with headband recently bought)
Cha: 7

Worshipper of Torag (important for trait)

Traits:

Defensive Strategist (Am not considered Flat Footed even when I have not yet acted in Combat - Very important as Dex is a big part of my AC)

Indomitable Will (+1 WIll save because it can never be too high)

Feats:

Lvl 1:
Vicious Stomp - Unarmed AoO when I trip someone (Important as I am too dumb for Combat Expertise and therefore Greater Trip)

Fury's Fall - Add Str and Dex when making a Trip (important again because no Greater Trip

Improved Trip - +2 when Tripping, no AoOs against me

Lvl 2 - Nothing due to losing bonus Feat from Archetype

Lvl 3:
Combat Reflexes - More AoO (Thank goodness!)

Lvl 5:
Dodge - +1 AC

Lvl 6:
Weapon Finesse - Use Dex for To Hit (My stomps were missing too much, taking this meant getting the Dex to 20 gives an extra +2 To Hit)

Lvl 7:
Crane Style - +3 AC for -2 To Hit (Negates my Weapon Finesse, have only just reached lvl 7 so not confirmed whether or not to take this)

Key aspects of the build:

The Wis was lower than Dex due to the high number of AoOs I can make, I needed heavy Dex, that and the fact it boosts my Trip.

AC is good enough to avoid a lot:
10+5(Dex)+1(Monk)+1(Sacred Mountain)+1(Dodge)+3(Wis)=21 AC

Pearl of Power means Wizard keeps Mage Armour on me for +4 AC
Ring of Protection gives +1 AC

So I have a standard AC of 26.
When staying in same spot that becomes 28 AC.
Every mob (up to 3) gives additional AC, so my stand still AC is typically 29-31.

At lvl 7 Quingong Monk gives me access to Barkskin for an additional +3 AC. So AC is now 32-34.

If I go with Crane Style that puts AC to 35-37. Course, if monster is on floor that effectively adds 4 more. Then there is Ki to spend if needs be

Offensively I think I am running with +16 for Trip (without Crane modifier).

The Pros to this build is that while I don't do big damage, I have up to 3 attacks plus AoOs which thanks to my Str means I do reasonable damage when not tripping.

The Con of this build is that staying still for a round can be tricky assuming the monster moves 5ft. Most the time I just accept this, though I do carry a reach weapon - obviously the Reach weapon does not allow me to Vicious Stomp, but it still allows me to stay still for extra AC if required and lets me perform my primary duty of controlling the situation.

So it is a very fun build. I even tripped a Spider once.


Hi, thanks for answering!

In fact, they look very close to each other!

In my build, AC is important, but keeping the AC race is really hard, so my AC will be to shake off the minor nuisances.

Greater Trip is paramount to me, because I really wish to serve the party with AoOs from proned foes.

As a form of comparison, my PC at 7th level should have:

Spoiler:

AC: 10 + DEX 5 + WIS 2 + DODGE 1 + MONK 1 + F.Def. 3 + Shield 2 + N. Armor 1 + F. Dodge 1 + C. Expertise 2 = 28/30 (without magic)

Unarmed Attack: BAB 4 + DEX 5 - F. Def. 2 - 1 C. Expertise = +6
Flurry: BAB 7 + DEX 5 - F. Def. 2 - 1 C. Expertise - 2 Flurry = +7/+7/+2 (1d8 DMG)

TRIP Attack: BAB 7 + DEX 5 + I. Trip 2 - F. Def. 2 - 1 C. Expertise = +11 (+15 If enemy is P. Attacking and Charging).

As a routine, he could be standing next to his comrades, fighting defensively, and attacking with reach weapon.

IF the enemy attacks him/comrade he can (if possible) AoO for a TRIP, or Redirect the attack, tripping the opponent (possibly Sickening and becoming Flat-footed), before the roll is made.

IF the attack is made at the PC, he can, after the dice is rolled, Block the attack, and, last but not least, roll REF for half damage.

As you can see, DMG by itself will be at a minimum, but after 7th lvl, I plan in getting 2-3 lvls in Ninja.


I've managed to improve the build further, posting it bellow.

Husei, the Flowing Water

Spoiler:

Human Monk 7(Flowing Monk, Monk of the Sacred Mountain) Ninja 3

LVL 1
STR 10 00 FORT +2 AC 10 + 4 + 2 + 1 = 17 (+3 F.Def.)
DEX 19 04 REF +6 HP 8
CON 10 00 WILL +4 (+2 M.Effects) Attack +4 (+3/+3) (-2 F.Def.)
INT 13 01 Ki 0
WIS 14 02 Trip 5 + 0 = +5 (+2 Charge AND +2 P.Attack -2 F.Def.)
CHR 09 -01 CMD 10 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 17 (+3 F.Def.)

LVL 6
STR 10 00 FORT +5 AC 10 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 20 (+3 F.Def. +2 I.L.D. +1/Enemy F.D)
DEX 20 05 REF +10 HP 8 + 5d8 + 6 = 36 avg.
CON 10 00 WILL +7 (+4 M.Effects) Attack 4 + 5 = +9 (+9/+9/+4) (-2 F.Def.)
INT 13 01 Ki 5
WIS 14 02 Trip 5 + 6 + 2 = 13 (+2 Charge AND +2 P.Attack -2 F.Def.)
CHR 09 -01 CMD 10 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 6 = 25 (+3 F.Def.)

LVL 10
STR 10 00 FORT +6 AC 10 + 5 + 2 + 1 + 1 + 1 = 20 (+3 F.Def. +2 I.L.D. +1/Enemy F.D +2 C.Expt.)
DEX 21 05 REF +13 HP 8 + 9d8 + 10 = 58 avg.
CON 10 00 WILL +8 (+4 M.Effects) Attack 7 + 5 = +12 (+12/+12/+7) (-1 F.Def. -1 C.Expt.)
INT 13 01 Ki 7
WIS 14 02 Trip 5 + 9 + 2 + 2 = 18 (+2 Charge AND +2 P.Attack -1 F.Def. -1 C.Expt.))
CHR 09 -01 CMD 10 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 5 + 9 = 28 (+3 F.Def. +2 C.Expt.)

Weapons
Kama, double-chained 1d6/1d6 Reach 10ft. 20/x2

Traits

Threatening Defender -1 on C. Expertise
Latent Psion (Human) +2 on saves against mind-affecting effects.

FEATS and Habilities

1- FEAT (Dodge), FEAT (Crane Style), FEAT (Weapon Finesse)*, FoB, Redirection*, Unarmed Strike
2- Unbalancing Counter*, FEAT (Toughness)*, AC +1 Natural
3- FEAT (Improved Trip), Flowing Dodge*, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
4- Ki Pool (magic), Bastion Stance*
5- FEAT (Crane Wing), Elusive Target*, Iron Limb Defense AC +2/+4 Shield*
6- FEAT (Combat Reflexes)*
7- FEAT (Crane Riposte), Wholeness of Body
8- Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6
9- FEAT (Combat Expertise), Ninja Trick (Greater Trip), Ki Pool
10- No trace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6

As it is, by the time it reaches 10th level it can:


  • Trip most opponents AND attack them dealing weapon damage + 2d6 Sneak
  • Tripped opponents are Flat-footed and possibly sickned
  • Tripped opponents triger AoO from adjacent allies
  • Trip an incoming attacker THEN deliver a AoO to the attacker (Sneak damage) THEN block the attack (Crane Wing) THEN Riposte attacker (Sneak damage). All of this during attacker's action.
  • AC 28 (possibly 34) WITHOUT magical support
  • Trip probably 30, maximized at 32, WITHOUT magical support.

Well, these are the implications of a 10th level PC on his own.

Comments?

Thanks for reading this far!


Venshad wrote:

Weapons

Kama, double-chained 1d6/1d6 Reach 10ft. 20/x2

FEATS and Habilities

1- FEAT (Dodge), FEAT (Crane Style), FEAT (Weapon Finesse)*, FoB, Redirection*, Unarmed Strike
2- Unbalancing Counter*, FEAT (Toughness)*, AC +1 Natural
3- FEAT (Improved Trip), Flowing Dodge*, Maneuver Training, Still Mind
4- Ki Pool (magic), Bastion Stance*
5- FEAT (Crane Wing), Elusive Target*, Iron Limb Defense AC +2/+4 Shield*
6- FEAT (Combat Reflexes)*
7- FEAT (Crane Riposte), Wholeness of Body
8- Poison Use, Sneak Attack +1d6
9- FEAT (Combat Expertise), Ninja Trick (Greater Trip), Ki Pool
10- No trace +1, Sneak Attack +2d6

This build will not work well. Kama, double-chained, while an awesome tripping weapon (the best in my opinion), is an exotic weapon. You have not taken a feat to pick up exotic weapon proficiency for this weapon which means you are -4 to attack and to your attempts to trip.

The only way to pick up this feat at 1st level is to go Half Elf and use Ancestral Weaponry alternate racial trait.


c873788,

Thanks for reading my topic!

Regarding the Kama

Spoiler:

The wielder can attack as if armed with a single kama in each hand or extend the chain to make a single reach attack.

As the Monk is proficient with Kama, and considering what is said about the equipment, can't we conclude that he is also proficient with the double-chained kama?

Liberty's Edge

You see what you wish to see grasshopper. How do you explain the monk knowing how to use the chain? He has no proficiency in the spiked chain.

If the monk is supposed to be proficient with the weapon, it would clearly state it in the description of the weapon that he is 'proficient'. This was noted by SK or JJ in another thread related to monk weapons.


RedDogMT, thanks for the reply!

Liberty's Edge

Shouldn't you take agile manuevers somewhere in there, to allow you to apply your DEX to your CMB instead of your non-existant STR bonus?


RedDogMT, regarding the weapon proficiency I can see 2 possible and viable solutions: a trait that gives me proficiency woth an specific weapon, or taking a level in Ninja before 8th level, so I can get access to Kusarigama, which os also a reach tripping monk weapon.

StrangePackage, having Weapon Finesse enables me to use DEX in Trip maneuvers, instead of STR.

Any more comments?

Thanks for reading


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Venshad wrote:

RedDogMT, regarding the weapon proficiency I can see 2 possible and viable solutions: a trait that gives me proficiency woth an specific weapon....

You're talking about the Heirloom Weapon trait, and it's been badly nerfed.

It now only works with one specific weapon (passed down in your family for generations) and if you lose that weapon you're out of luck. You cannot use any other example of the same weapon.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Venshad wrote:

RedDogMT, regarding the weapon proficiency I can see 2 possible and viable solutions: a trait that gives me proficiency woth an specific weapon, or taking a level in Ninja before 8th level, so I can get access to Kusarigama, which os also a reach tripping monk weapon.

StrangePackage, having Weapon Finesse enables me to use DEX in Trip maneuvers, instead of STR.

As far as I'm aware, Weapon Finesse enables you to use Dexterity instead of strength so long as you can use weapon finesse with the weapon. For example you can't use weapon finesse to trip with a temple sword since it's not a finessable weapon.

Kusarigama is not finessable. Elven sword, spiked chain and a few others are. I don't believe the double kama is finessable either, though I would let you use finesse when wielding it as a kama.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Trying to track down the best options for tripping with my halfling underfoot adept also... the Kusarigama is the perfect tripping weapon, but sadly not finesse friendly. I believe paying for Agile Maneuvers opens up even non-finessable weapons, but that's an extra feat. Not sure if it's worth it myself.


Dennis Baler,

I can't belive why such weapons aren't finessable, considering that without a chain (light?) they are all light weapons.

Well, it seems more like a bug than an intentional weapon feature to me.

I strongly belive, though, that DEX could be used instead of STR, without paying for Weapon Finesse (this feat could allow DEX to damage), but this was not a system's choice, however.

In conclusion, there are no finessable weapons with reach, sadly.


Venshad wrote:

Dennis Baler,

I can't belive why such weapons aren't finessable, considering that without a chain (light?) they are all light weapons.

Well, it seems more like a bug than an intentional weapon feature to me.

I strongly belive, though, that DEX could be used instead of STR, without paying for Weapon Finesse (this feat could allow DEX to damage), but this was not a system's choice, however.

In conclusion, there are no finessable weapons with reach, sadly.

Why would you want a finessable weapon anyway? That is an inferior build for the tripper.


Agile Maneuvers solves the problem of a finesseable weapon. It allows your maneuver to use dex regardless of what you employ.

However, I would pick one problem out with this build: what happens when you face thing that cannot be tripped? I have run into this a lot with a maneuvers character. Multiple legs, no legs at all and flying creatures all cannot be tripped. I would recommend another maneuver at least, if not two.

I would also suggest taking a style - either Crane or Snake - get get AoOs on targets that attack you and have some extra defences.


c873788, a finessable reach weapon can be used to threat 10ft, allowing the PC to trip foes from a distance.

Dabbler, this PC already has Crane Style listed.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor

Venshad wrote:

Dennis Baler,

I can't belive why such weapons aren't finessable, considering that without a chain (light?) they are all light weapons.

Well, it seems more like a bug than an intentional weapon feature to me.

I strongly belive, though, that DEX could be used instead of STR, without paying for Weapon Finesse (this feat could allow DEX to damage), but this was not a system's choice, however.

In conclusion, there are no finessable weapons with reach, sadly.

I'm pretty sure this was by design not a bug. Reach, trip, finnesse, all are very desireable weapon traits. The whip has all three, but it has other downsides and isn't a monk weapon.


Dennis Baker, I've managed to accomodate a 4th Ninja level in this 10 level build, so I can buy Agile Maneuvers.

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