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It seems like in any discussion of Gunslingers or of firearms, there's very little exploration of the various types of firearms. Either you choose a pistol (or two), and go Pistolero, or you choose a musket and go Musket Master. Never is there any discussion of the culverin, the pepperbox, the buckler gun, or so forth.
I can understand that a lot of it is to do with the fact that you begin play already owning a musket or pistol, and buying a firearm is prohibitively expensive. But one would think that the third firearm a gunslinger can begin play with, a blunderbuss, would garner a bit of discussion as well.
Are pistols and muskets really the only firearms worth using? Has the Scatter quality truly failed to capture the imagination? Does anyone have any experience to impart with any of these other guns?
And when Ultimate Combat says gunslingers may begin play with "a pistol", does that include the five other firearms that have "pistol" in their names, like the dragon pistol, sword cane pistol, etc.?
I have a Pistolero Gunslinger that carries around a dragon pistol and uses dragon breath cartridges. I use it to clear swarms and to attack groups of weaker enemies. Other than that I rather use the pistol.
I think most people are turned off by the fact you can't use precision based abilities with scatter weapons. Never mind the fact you can still use your gun training class feature to add Dex to damage and the Deadly Aim feat because Deadly Aim isn't technically precision damage, you can aim a shotgun at someone's head. It may be the wording of the Scatter quality entry because when they mention damage increasing feats and list Vital Strike they meant to lump that in with the precision exception. You have to also consider the fact that gunslingers shoot into melee. Scatter weapons run the risk of hitting your allies. Basically it'd be better to have a scatter weapon as a backup weapon when there's no risk of hitting friends.
And when they say Pistol in UC they just mean regular Pistol, not it's variants.
It seems like in any discussion of Gunslingers or of firearms, there's very little exploration of the various types of firearms. Either you choose a pistol (or two), and go Pistolero, or you choose a musket and go Musket Master. Never is there any discussion of the culverin, the pepperbox, the buckler gun, or so forth.
I can understand that a lot of it is to do with the fact that you begin play already owning a musket or pistol, and buying a firearm is prohibitively expensive. But one would think that the third firearm a gunslinger can begin play with, a blunderbuss, would garner a bit of discussion as well.
Are pistols and muskets really the only firearms worth using? Has the Scatter quality truly failed to capture the imagination? Does anyone have any experience to impart with any of these other guns?
And when Ultimate Combat says gunslingers may begin play with "a pistol", does that include the five other firearms that have "pistol" in their names, like the dragon pistol, sword cane pistol, etc.?
From my own experience, scatter and the blunderbusd holds no interest. When I think of Gunslinger, I think of pinpoint single target damage, which remains useful in group setting, as opposed to an area effect shot which increases the odds of friendly fire. That's just how my image of them is. I do think the pepperbox sounds interesting, but since it requires the shooter to manually rotate the barrels, it's far less useful than it sounds.
As for the battered pistol, it's just that, a regular pistol. If it said "any pistol type weapon" I would assume it meant it more broadly, but a pistol is a specific rules defined thing.
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Having played a Sorcerer, I've never really had trouble finding a good position from which to cast Burning Hands. If you know you have the spell, you can usually spot a good opening. I would think the same would apply if you had a blunderbuss-- use mostly bullets, but keep a few pellet cartridges on hand for when the opening presents itself. Plus, scatters only misfire if you roll a misfire against everyone in the scatter, so it seems like good "anti-misfire insurance".
Then again, pistols and muskets both have longer range increments--with a blunderbuss, if you want to hit touch AC you have to be within polearm range. Maybe that has something to do with it too.
The firearm I'd really like to see get some love is the culverin. 2d8/x4 with scatter, and a 30-foot range increment? YES PLEASE. (Although I just realized, there's no mention of how wide a cone the culverin hits when you scatter with it-- is it the same as the range increment unless noted?)
My experience is with 2 levels of Alchemist (Internal Alchemist archetype) for Vestigial Arm Discovery and the Two-Weapon Fighting Feats to use 2 Pistols at once. The DPR got realy up there when both pistols got the speed enchant for a nice 9 attacks a round.
Pretty sure you dont get 2 extra attacks for wielding 2 haste weapons.
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What they needed was a Shotgun Master Archaetype. Because who wouldn't want to fight evil in the world of magic and elves with a shotgun?
What they needed was a Shotgun Master Archaetype. Because who wouldn't want to fight evil in the world of magic and elves with a shotgun?
Should be called the Boomsticker.
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My experience is with 2 levels of Alchemist (Internal Alchemist archetype) for Vestigial Arm Discovery and the Two-Weapon Fighting Feats to use 2 Pistols at once. The DPR got realy up there when both pistols got the speed enchant for a nice 9 attacks a round.Pretty sure you dont get 2 extra attacks for wielding 2 haste weapons.
SPEED
When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/speed
Historical trivia.
Dragoon comes from the fact they at first where armed with Dragon pistols.
So if your gunslinger whats to refer to himself as a Dragoon he should use one.
I agree with what was mentioned above--they needed to introduce a scatter weapon archetype. The easiest way to use two-handed firearms is the Musket Master archetype...which kinda limits you to a specific type of weapon.
Three levels in Bladbeound Magus for a Blackblade Sword Cane Pistol, or Musket Axe.
Immune to the Broken Condition.
Mmmmmmm, cheesing your way past the very important balancing factors.
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Mmmmmmm, cheesing your way past the very important balancing factors.Three levels in Bladbeound Magus for a Blackblade Sword Cane Pistol, or Musket Axe.
Immune to the Broken Condition.
I thought the balancing factor was that it takes so long to reload that you need to stack feats and abilities just to get it down to a move action.
And considering the sword cane pistol deals 1d4/x3, the DC to see past the camouflage is so low, and its range increment is only 10 feet, it seems like you're practically better off spending that 775 gold on a wand of Returning Weapon and a Starknife.
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Mmmmmmm, cheesing your way past the very important balancing factors.Three levels in Bladbeound Magus for a Blackblade Sword Cane Pistol, or Musket Axe.
Immune to the Broken Condition.
Not really. Those mentioned are not very good comparatively to other firearms, and this option makes them somewhat viable.
It's lemons to lemonade.
I thought most damage as a gunslinger came from gun training, not precision damage
Clearly you should go for culverin and vital strike.If only Vital Strike worked with scatter!
Pretty sure it does. As it is a normal attack that hit multiple.
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My experience is with 2 levels of Alchemist (Internal Alchemist archetype) for Vestigial Arm Discovery and the Two-Weapon Fighting Feats to use 2 Pistols at once. The DPR got realy up there when both pistols got the speed enchant for a nice 9 attacks a round.Pretty sure you dont get 2 extra attacks for wielding 2 haste weapons.SPEED
When making a full-attack action, the wielder of a speed weapon may make one extra attack with it. The attack uses the wielder's full base attack bonus, plus any modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This benefit is not cumulative with similar effects, such as a haste spell.)
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic-items/magic-weapons/magic-weapon-special-abil ities/speed
See how when you move the emphasis, things change? Pretty Sure Speed is a similar effect to Speed.
More on topic, I've seen a few Scatter weapons used by gunslingers, but they're almost always back-up weapons, saved for swarms or that rare situation when they're the perfect fit. Moreover, I see them used almost exclusively by Musket Masters or Pistoleros, since they're the only ones who can apply their abilities to them without having to wait until the second round of Gun Training to apply their bonuses.
It even stacks with Haste as it only applies to a single attack with one weapon.
This means a single weapon user can't get 2 attacks but a TWF can get an extra attack with both their Speed Longsword and their Speed Gladius. Or have a Speed Longsword and use their Haste Attack with their Gladius.
I have a Blunderbuss using Gunslinger in a Seafaring based campaign. In tight corridors the Cone is brutal. I am using the Musket Master Archetype and use the Musket as a Deck to Deck Weapon. Though I tend to end up crewing one of the Cannons.
and I am working on a Scatter Gunner Archetype. Any thoughts/Suggestions?
I banned double-barreled pistols in my games once I made a level 11 character who could kill any monster in the bestiary in a single full attack.
Also, I always thought a Double hackbut based character would be interesting if you could get around the action cost to set it up. Using the dead shot deed, and maybe the mysterious stranger archetype for tons of damage with a single shot.
I've never thought much of the scatter weapons, but I suppose they could be useful against swarms or as a backup weapon if your main weapon misfires.
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It even stacks with Haste as it only applies to a single attack with one weapon.
It specifically says it doesn't stack with Haste. Haste gives you an extra attack. Speed gives you an extra attack, and doesn't stack with similar effects like, oh, Haste and Speed.
I have a Blunderbuss using Gunslinger in a Seafaring based campaign. In tight corridors the Cone is brutal. I am using the Musket Master Archetype and use the Musket as a Deck to Deck Weapon. Though I tend to end up crewing one of the Cannons.
Our Gunslinger in Skulls and Shackles went a similar route and it's been quite effective. The Blunderbuss tends to be fun right up until melee combat starts, so any way to minimize friendly fire would be pretty essential to making it a viable full time weapon.
@Ssalarn:
A) The effects are on different weapons. Therefore they do stack.
B) The weakness you mention can be overcome through tactics.
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@Ssalarn:
The effects are on different weapons. Therefore they do stack.
I, for one, am 100% sure that they do not stack, no matter how many weapons you have. It's not that the weapon gets an extra attack, it is that the wielder gets an extra attack with the weapon. The fact that it does not stack with haste indicates that it is not intended to stack with ANY means of getting an extra attack, including a second weapon with speed.
Furthermore, every DM I have ever had has said that they do not stack.
Depends on how the magic works in the setting I guess. I view it as the Magic speeding up the wielder's arm, NOT their body. And it boosts Martials. It is one of the few shiny things they could get. And heck even then it require a bleeding Caster.
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Depends on how the magic works in the setting I guess. I view it as the Magic speeding up the wielder's arm, NOT their body. And it boosts Martials. It is one of the few shiny things they could get. And heck even then it require a bleeding Caster.
The Haste spell grants an extra attack that is not specific to a particular limb or weapon and doesn't stack with other haste effects. The Speed ability grants an extra attack that is specific to the weapon, and also specifically does not stack with haste, or any similar effects. There is no exception for this built into TWF and I cannot see any reason the ability should change because you're using a weapon in each hand instead of just one. If you have Haste cast on you and are wielding a pair of Speed weapons, you still only have one extra attack.
That being said we're getting off-topic here so if we need to continue this we should do so in another thread.On the note of Scatter weapons: Would there be a benefit to playing an archetype like the Ratfolk Gulchgunner that already uses pistols in melee range and dual-wielding a pair of Dragon Pistols? I feel like that might be an interesting way to utilize a Scatter weapon, since the shortened range increment for firing standard shots wouldn't be an issue.
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So does a Marilith with an Amulet of MF +X and speed make 12 slams a turn? Or an advanced Hydra?And that's exactly why Speed doesn't stack with Speed, or Haste, or similar effects.
Be careful when quoting me. I tend to have a pretty relaxed (anti-Cheese) interpretation of the rules. I'm not even sure that Natural attacks benefit from haste other than the +1 to hit.
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I made a bard gunslinger once. He had six pistols; 2 on the legs, two on his belt behind his back, and two shoulder holsters. 2 of the six were dragon pistols, 2 had regular ammo, and the other 2 had special ammo. I took quick draw and drew two different types of pistol depending on what I was facing. I got alot of mileage out of that combat style. Never took TWF though, just had a pistol for every occasion. By the time I was ready to reload, we were out of combat anyway.
The setting was 1886 America, but there were fantasy races and creatures. The price of firearms was less severe, and you could almost always find "burner pistols" and ammo from each encounter.
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Be careful when quoting me. I tend to have a pretty relaxed (anti-Cheese) interpretation of the rules. I'm not even sure that Natural attacks benefit from haste other than the +1 to hit.So does a Marilith with an Amulet of MF +X and speed make 12 slams a turn? Or an advanced Hydra?And that's exactly why Speed doesn't stack with Speed, or Haste, or similar effects.
Don't worry, Haste specifically states that a natural attack can be used for the extra attack granted. Your example was an excellent choice to show why the property specifically says it doesn't stack.
Seriously though, let's take this to another thread if we want to keep talking about it please.|
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I made a bard gunslinger once. He had six pistols; 2 on the legs, two on his belt behind his back, and two shoulder holsters. 2 of the six were dragon pistols, 2 had regular ammo, and the other 2 had special ammo. I took quick draw and drew two different types of pistol depending on what I was facing. I got alot of mileage out of that combat style. Never took TWF though, just had a pistol for every occasion. By the time I was ready to reload, we were out of combat anyway.
The setting was 1886 America, but there were fantasy races and creatures. The price of firearms was less severe, and you could almost always find "burner pistols" and ammo from each encounter.
Being in a campaign that actually supports firearms definitely goes a long way to making the class more effective.
Out of curiosity, did you have any problems with the Dragon Pistols staying viable throughout the game since your feats and abilities didn't work with them? Did you retake the feats like Rapid Reload for your Dragon Pistols as well, or did you find it was just generally unnecessary?
One thing to note the alchemical cartridges do not scale well, by about level 10 or so most monsters should easily be able to make the DC of the carts. I have my guntank dwarf with a blunderbuss and a warhammer but I can't use any of the fancy carts and reloading takes far too long for the musket without a the lightning reload - signature dead combo.
The Slam counts as a single weapon.
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The Slam counts as a single weapon.
You're wrong, read the entry, and maybe start that thread.
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One thing to note the alchemical cartridges do not scale well, by about level 10 or so most monsters should easily be able to make the DC of the carts. I have my guntank dwarf with a blunderbuss and a warhammer but I can't use any of the fancy carts and reloading takes far too long for the musket without a the lightning reload - signature dead combo.
It does seem like very few of the alchemical cartridges stay viable terribly long. It seems like the paper cartridges get used pretty consistently since they're (relatively) cheap, but you don't see the Dragon's Breath or Entangling Shot cartridges getting used at all after like 5th level or so. The odds of misfiring are drastically increased, and there's no way to make the save DC go up so it's all but worthless after a point.
I made a bard gunslinger once. He had six pistols; 2 on the legs, two on his belt behind his back, and two shoulder holsters. 2 of the six were dragon pistols, 2 had regular ammo, and the other 2 had special ammo. I took quick draw and drew two different types of pistol depending on what I was facing. I got alot of mileage out of that combat style. Never took TWF though, just had a pistol for every occasion. By the time I was ready to reload, we were out of combat anyway.
The setting was 1886 America, but there were fantasy races and creatures. The price of firearms was less severe, and you could almost always find "burner pistols" and ammo from each encounter.
Being in a campaign that actually supports firearms definitely goes a long way to making the class more effective.
Out of curiosity, did you have any problems with the Dragon Pistols staying viable throughout the game since your feats and abilities didn't work with them? Did you retake the feats like Rapid Reload for your Dragon Pistols as well, or did you find it was just generally unnecessary?
The dragon pistols were fine, if only situational. I wouldn't specialize in them, but its nice to have as a back up. Almost all the ranged feats work with guns, so it was surprisingly easy to stay viable with the rest of the party. I got alot of mileage out of it as I said. I was role playing/ channeling Doc Holiday from tombstone. It was a great campaign. My role was as primary healer/ support, but the pistols made me feel special.
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The dragon pistols were fine, if only situational. I wouldn't specialize in them, but its nice to have as a back up. Almost all the ranged feats work with guns, so it was surprisingly easy to stay viable with the rest of the party. I got alot of mileage out of it as I said. I was role playing/ channeling Doc Holiday from tombstone. It was a great campaign. My role was as primary healer/ support, but the pistols made me feel special.
I definitely think that every Gunslinger should have a scatter weapon on them just in case, it's nice to hear that your experience indicates they don't fall too far behind in usefulness as you level.
Did you have any experience with alchemical cartridges (other than paper) and them staying useful after about level 5 or so?
Didn't like the alchemical rounds. Mostly stuck with silver/ cold iron shot.
It does seem like very few of the alchemical cartridges stay viable terribly long. It seems like the paper cartridges get used pretty consistently since they're (relatively) cheap, but you don't see the Dragon's Breath or Entangling Shot cartridges getting used at all after like 5th level or so. The odds of misfiring are drastically increased, and there's no way to make the save DC go up so it's all but worthless after a point.
I'm not sure, since entangle isa rare condition to find a cure for (seriously hardest condition to cure), it stays relevent.
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I think I can see why people don't choose the blunderbuss out of the starting 3 more often-- you're taking a 1d8/x2 weapon over a 1d8/x4 or a 1d12/x4 weapon, both with longer range increments. It's good to hear the ability to scatter can make the choice worth it.
It also sounds like some people here are forgetting, you can use a dragon pistol or a blunderbuss to shoot an ordinary bullet as well. There's no need for a second gun, just keep a variety of cartridges on hand.
I was thinking of concocting a scatter archetype too, but I'll save it for another thread.
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well then every DM you have ever talked to is wrong. Paizo did a FAQ on it(specifically, using Speed on an Amulet of Mighty Fists). And yes, you would get an extra attack with each natural attack. Although they wouldn't allow it on the basis of it being too strong.I, for one, am 100% sure that they do not stack, no matter how many weapons you have. It's not that the weapon gets an extra attack, it is that the wielder gets an extra attack with the weapon. The fact that it does not stack with haste indicates that it is not intended to stack with ANY means of getting an extra attack, including a second weapon with speed.
Furthermore, every DM I have ever had has said that they do not stack.
John, show the FAQ or admit you're wrong here, I can find nothing to back your statement that there is a FAQ saying they work together up, and the ability itself specifically says it doesn't stack with similar properties. Now, If you had Speed on an AoMF, it would apply the property to all of your natural attacks, but you'd still only get one extra attack per round since the multiple instances don't stack with each other. When and if you locate that FAQ, please post it in another thread and drop a link to it here so we can continue that discussion without further disrupting this thread.
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I think I can see why people don't choose the blunderbuss out of the starting 3 more often-- you're taking a 1d8/x2 weapon over a 1d8/x4 or a 1d12/x4 weapon, both with longer range increments. It's good to hear the ability to scatter can make the choice worth it.
It also sounds like some people here are forgetting, you can use a dragon pistol or a blunderbuss to shoot an ordinary bullet as well. There's no need for a second gun, just keep a variety of cartridges on hand.
I was thinking of concocting a scatter archetype too, but I'll save it for another thread.
The problem is that Scatter weapons typically have terrrible range increments, usually 10 feet, making them impractical for combat for most characters. I know that certain archetypes and builds like the Sword and Pistol build, or the Gulch Gunner Archetype actually benefit from using guns at point blank ranges (and even they typically focus on pistols, not two-handed firearms), but generally it's a very poor idea to be that close to an enemy with a two-handed ranged weapon that takes so long to reload.