I am a sore loser


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Scarab Sages

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Laiho Vanallo wrote:

I guess that my general complain is the difficulty spike, on paper sending a APL 4 group versus a CR 8 is in my dear opinion, a bit hardcore.

After a lot of reflection I can now see many problems with our group:

The wizard is OVERLY using defensive spells, it's to the point where I think I will have to buy him a wand of magic missile or something. In the last combat, while out of big hitting spells, decided to cast *mount* to use the horse as a meat shield while already standing 70 feet away from combat.

Our Cleric is actually learning a lot about the game and how to use her character, she is overly shy and not very creative due to constant peer pressure, I will have to make sure that with the rest of the group we take the time to let her think her actions and give her more space.

The rogue of the party is a massive RP crazy character, she likes to look cool, act cool. I think that so far in every fight we had she may have shot 1 kobold out with a crossbow.

The ranger very often no showing up at our game, but otherwise he his an excellent player and a great ranged support character.

I will try to politely point out those things out to the group.

I think I am frustrated that the only characters that actually do the dirty job in the party so fight (AKA spilling monster blood) are the cleric and me, and more often than not I take the beating, I take the risk, I have to cover their asses and often end up facing a NPC that as 3-4 level (and gear) more than me while the cleric as to spam heal me. I think that the next fight we know we are about to face a NPC I will simply turn away and decide to not to go fight.

You know, for all the criticism of the GM in this thread, you do actually describe some serious tactical problems with the other players.

And you know these are problems, since you say so yourself.
There's two PCs doing all the work, while a wizard casts nothing but defensive buffs on himself, a rogue flitters about ineffectually, and another guy (while solid) is rarely there.

The GM isn't really at fault for creating boss encounters of higher CR than APL. The game assumes that PCs can handle up to APL+4 as a tough encounter.
But if he's doing so, in the belief the party can handle it between the five PCs, but only two PCs typically step up to the plate...who's at fault?


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Laiho Vanallo wrote:

The Big line:

I am a sore loser and I hate to be pushed over with ease by my DM overpowered "boss battles". I try really hard to calm down, take it with a grain of salt, but frankly I need advice on how to cope with my PC getting his rear-end being kicked by post epic encounter CRs (APL 4 vs. CR 8).
I am not trying to find a miracle solution here and I understand that I should be more open minded about the whole issue, I just want to see how other people deal with this kind of issues with their PCs.

The fine details (read if you want the extra info):

Playing a custom world campaign, 15 point buy, core rule book only.
The party consist of a cleric (kind of new to the game) , wizard, ranger/rogue, rogue and finally me the fighter, all of us level 5. We use a rotating cast, the campaign is very modular and it allow us to play with all kind of group configurations, that is allowing us to play if a player is unavailable. I do not know if it's my fighter build (falshion specialist) but we usually plow through most dungeons with ease (last session I took care of 3 ogres by myself).

My DM, however, as a nasty habit, he often make us face NPCs that are "important" to his story, you know the awesome character that basically has his own cut-scene when you see him for the first time. Half the party got incinerated after the second session because we "dared" barge in his room and shot everything we had at him (The DM later confirmed that we should not have harmed him and that we were only supposed to face his right hand man)

Other examples are: A ranger that sliced my throat using a crit card, a rogue that had improved faint and basically put my fighter unconscious in 2 rounds, a fight involving a blind monk and a large changeling. Every-time we almost get TPK but then to add humiliation to injury he pull his punches! I feel that at least he should suffer the consequences of his actions (unbalanced fights) by making the TPK happen.

I am tired of NPCs being always the coolest cats in the...

(Sorry in advance for the wall of text...)

I like to try to take a good look at both sides of an arguement, and in fairness, if you are unhappy or not having fun with your game then maybe it is in the best interests if both you and your DM to go your separate ways and not risk poisoning your friendship with such obviously hostility and hard feelings.

When it comes to the first situation, however...
You walked into a room, mowed down every obstacle in your way, and then picked a fight with a guy that your DM obviously (he even said so) didn't want you to fight.
If I were to play a game, bust down a door and go all "Leeeeeroooooy...!" on what is meant to be an RP situation involving the BBEG and get so aggressive that he lays me low I would be facepalming at my own recklessness. Some of us play the game for the story and not just the monster bashing and dice rolling.

Some of my favorite villains from the Baldur's Gate series were involved in the very same "shenanigans" that you're describing. (To speak to a game that at least a few of us could relate to).
Watching Jon Irenicus battle the Cowled Wizards at the start of the game when he could obviously grind me into a sticky paste left me with a sense of awe and appreciation at such an awesome villain. Fighting him in Spellhold alongside a large group of other powerful wizards when he would likely topple me let me get a taste of blood and yearn to be strong enough to beat him as I watched him teleport away... and all of that culminated into one of the most epic and satisfying boss encounters that I could think of when it finally came time to pit my strength against his at the end!
I didn't immediately cry foul and bemoan how I was the victim, that the makers of this epic story arc were just flaunting their "awesome NPC" in my face in effort to show how cool they were.

You got trounced by a feinting rogue. It sucks. But it happens. Yes, he could have maybe misunderstood the rules and accidentally given the NPC an extra move action in his first round. Maybe he was level 3 and had a flaming weapon? (A bit high for his gp limit, I know).
Would you have had more fun just facerolling everything in sight with your uber AC?
I have a character in my game who plays a Kensai Magus who stacked the ever living hell out of her AC. Most of the time it works to her advantage (so does yours if you are toppling some encounters prior to the bosses like you said you were). But every so often you and your team are going to face something that directly challenges your strong points.
She has come up against two run ins with a Darkness Domain Cleric who encased them in darkness and flatfooted her God-AC and with a sentient flesh golem who constantly utilized Shatter Defenses in order to keep her primary defense nearly invalid and would have pummeled her into a fine paste if not for the aid of the group cleric.
We had a blast. They narrowly won the encounter and those two encounters are still spoken of today as some of the group favorites for forcing them on their toes and making victory seem so razor thin. Even more-so when they won the odds and snatched triumph from the jaws of defeat!

You talk like your GM played the part of the tyrant in making you battle the blind monk and his brutish companion.
You won man! Whoo hoo! Take your victory and dance around the cave for a little bit and revel in your accomplishments!
You stormed the dungeon, laid waste to the enemies who stood in front of you as they quailed at your awesomeness and then took the fight to a duo that pushed you and your party to its limit. So what if the last fight was a challenge? Isn't that one of the reasons that we play?
He could have been wearing a Blind Man's Fold and had blindsight instead of trueseeing? Did his inability to see hamper your strategy in any way or could this character maybe have been inspired to be 'Illidan-esque' and provide you with a memorable villain?

I've found that people can be so quick to throw a DM under the bus for their style of DMing and automatically condemn them as "bad" and for someone to immediately confront them and make them conform their game to their standards... or just pick up and walk off if they don't get what they want because it seems to be a DM's job to make the game fun for the players.
But ultimately it's a game where everybody is meant to have fun. Believe it or not, the DM should be enjoying telling 'their' story and playing 'their' game too.
Maybe your DM is on a DMPC high and is throwing you guys around in order to flex his own deific muscle and relish at how awesome his characters are. I wasn't there for your game and I can't tell myself.
Or, and I may be just taking a shot in the dark here given that your your post is called "I am a sore loser"... you might be looking into the reasons behind the things that are being done and automatically thinking that they are meant to slight you and your group.

At the end of the day... your character has more triumphs than losses. You're still alive and paired up with at least one team member who has helped you overcome some challenging encounters while your party members drooled and did nothing.
And you have a a storyline with established villains that have built that sense of vengeance and rivalry with.

Doesn't sound like such a bad game to me.


Lorosfyr wrote:

(Sorry in advance for the wall of text...)

I like to try to take a good look at both sides of an arguement, and in fairness, if you are unhappy or not having fun with your game then maybe it is in the best interests if both you and your DM to go your separate ways and not risk poisoning your friendship with such obviously hostility and hard feelings.

When it comes to the first situation, however...
You walked into a room, mowed down every obstacle in your way, and then picked a fight with a guy that your DM obviously (he even said so) didn't want you to fight.
If I were to play a game, bust down a door and go all "Leeeeeroooooy...!" on what is meant to be an RP situation involving the BBEG and get so aggressive that he lays me low I would be facepalming at my own recklessness. Some of us play the game for the story and not just the monster bashing and dice rolling.

Some of my favorite villains from the Baldur's Gate series were involved in the very same "shenanigans" that you're describing. (To speak to a game that at least a few of us could relate to).
Watching Jon Irenicus battle the Cowled Wizards at the start of the game when he could obviously grind me into a sticky paste left me with a sense of awe and appreciation at such an awesome villain. Fighting him in Spellhold alongside a large group of other powerful wizards when he would likely topple me let me get a taste of blood and yearn to be strong enough to beat him as I watched him teleport away... and all of that culminated into one of the most epic and satisfying boss encounters that I could think of when it finally came time to pit my strength against his at the end!
I didn't immediately cry foul and bemoan how I was the victim, that the makers of this epic story arc were just flaunting their "awesome NPC" in my face in effort to show how cool they were.

You got trounced by a feinting rogue. It sucks. But it happens. Yes, he could have maybe misunderstood the rules and accidentally given the NPC an extra move action in his first round. Maybe he was level 3 and had a flaming weapon? (A bit high for his gp limit, I know).
Would you have had more fun just facerolling everything in sight with your uber AC?
I have a character in my game who plays a Kensai Magus who stacked the ever living hell out of her AC. Most of the time it works to her advantage (so does yours if you are toppling some encounters prior to the bosses like you said you were). But every so often you and your team are going to face something that directly challenges your strong points.
She has come up against two run ins with a Darkness Domain Cleric who encased them in darkness and flatfooted her God-AC and with a sentient flesh golem who constantly utilized Shatter Defenses in order to keep her primary defense nearly invalid and would have pummeled her into a fine paste if not for the aid of the group cleric.
We had a blast. They narrowly won the encounter and those two encounters are still spoken of today as some of the group favorites for forcing them on their toes and making victory seem so razor thin. Even more-so when they won the odds and snatched triumph from the jaws of defeat!

You talk like your GM played the part of the tyrant in making you battle the blind monk and his brutish companion.
You won man! Whoo hoo! Take your victory and dance around the cave for a little bit and revel in your accomplishments!
You stormed the dungeon, laid waste to the enemies who stood in front of you as they quailed at your awesomeness and then took the fight to a duo that pushed you and your party to its limit. So what if the last fight was a challenge? Isn't that one of the reasons that we play?
He could have been wearing a Blind Man's Fold and had blindsight instead of trueseeing? Did his inability to see hamper your strategy in any way or could this character maybe have been inspired to be 'Illidan-esque' and provide you with a memorable villain?

I've found that people can be so quick to throw a DM under the bus for their style of DMing and automatically condemn them as "bad" and for someone to immediately confront them and make them conform their game to their standards... or just pick up and walk off if they don't get what they want because it seems to be a DM's job to make the game fun for the players.
But ultimately it's a game where everybody is meant to have fun. Believe it or not, the DM should be enjoying telling 'their' story and playing 'their' game too.
Maybe your DM is on a DMPC high and is throwing you guys around in order to flex his own deific muscle and relish at how awesome his characters are. I wasn't there for your game and I can't tell myself.
Or, and I may be just taking a shot in the dark here given that your your post is called "I am a sore loser"... you might be looking into the reasons behind the things that are being done and automatically thinking that they are meant to slight you and your group.

At the end of the day... your character has more triumphs than losses. You're still alive and paired up with at least one team member who has helped you overcome some challenging encounters while your party members drooled and did nothing.
And you have a a storyline with established villains that have built that sense of vengeance and rivalry with.

Doesn't sound like such a bad game to me.

+1


There are players (and GMs) who only enjoy a game when they get to feel 'cooler' than everyone else in the room, all the time. They have no consideration for whether anyone else is having fun.

They make lousy teammates in the player's role because they're always trying to show up the other PCs. And they make even worse GMs because of their tendency to trot out 'much more awesome than you' enemies and NPCs. If it's a villain, the villain easily defeats the PCs; if it's an NPC, the NPC gets to do all the impressive stuff while everyone else stands around and watches. Applause is recommended.

When our group had to deal with such a player, we simply quit gaming with him. We do other stuff when he's around, but gaming is not an option.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
DeathQuaker wrote:

I wish I could remember where I heard it from, but someone once said something to the effect of, "A good GM knows how to let the party win while making them think they just barely snatched victory from the jaws of defeat."

My goal for every important encounter is to make the players THINK they are all going to die, and then pull it out. That is my goal. Obviously sometimes I am going to miss the mark by simple law of averages if nothing else. But I have become pretty adept at keeping along that water mark. I have found the key is to have an enemy that for story reasons has less resources then normal, but some of those resources are friggan scary, but that I know the party has a solution to. And for those times when I screw it up, I use a version of hero points allowing players to prevent death of their characters or party members.

To the OP, it seems to me that your dm shows a significant lack of maturity. This is the sort of stuff my group did in highschool. Because we were kids. If you and your group are older then that, its not really acceptable. Talk to him about it. If you dont get significant give on the subject, offer to take over as dm, or find a difference one. You cant MAKE someone more mature, you can only point out the issue and see if they respond.


I've been here. The guy who introduced me to D&D and who was my DM'd for about 15 years was great at making his world come alive, but he loved his invincible NPCs.

We frequently had DMPCs coming along with our group, and you could be sure they would be experts in everything, overshadowing the PCs. Fighter specialised in swordfighting? A mere amateur compared to the expert fencing skills of the bard DMPC. That sort of thing.

Added to this 'friendly' NPCs like church leaders or local authorities treated the group like dirt even when asking (demanding) our help. Dealing with the good guys was frequently as dangerous as dealing with the villains.

Encounters were so difficult that the TPK-fudged-into-capture was a recurring event.

I eventually made a character that followed the tactics described here - never entering towns, never talking to NPCs, running from encounters when they got dangerous. Ironically I became exactly what his NPCs treated me like - a cowardly, unreliable mercenary.

Anyway I managed to keep this up for a few levels, but eventually the DM cornered my character with a Lamia (I think). It used its Suggestion to mind control me and then flew off with me in its claws.

All attempt to find my character failed. DM announced my character was on another plane and out of the campaign.

That's when I quit the game. I'm afraid you may have to do the same.


Laiho Vanallo wrote:
but frankly I need advice on how to cope with my PC getting his rear-end being kicked by post epic encounter CRs (APL 4 vs. CR 8).

Tell your GM you don't prefer over-the-top unfair battles. Most GMs assume you want the boss battles to be super tough, and that you want to get wrecked a bit. It will probably surprise him that you don't like that.


A TPK has happened. Some of this advice is a bit late.

APL+4 is the CR of a standard adventuring group, which is to say a 50% chance of defeat / TPK. If the group is not very skilled / optimised, defeat is almost certain.

I was originally going to defend the GM.
A lot of campaigns - and Paizo adventure paths - have a pattern where PCs travel through the world, meeting enemies, and immediately killing those enemies. At the end you meet the final villain, someone you've never met and are largely indifferent to, and you defeat them too.
You never get the kind of drama you get in fiction where the hero meets an enemy, is outclassed and mocked, but the hero barely survives and later comes back and wins a very satisfying victory.
I got the impression the GM was trying to manipulate events to bring about that kind of situation, which is a valid play style, though not for everyone.

But if the campaign also features instant deathtraps triggered by missing a hard Perception roll, forget it. Volunteer to be the new GM.


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Lincoln Hills wrote:

Perhaps the GM will make a few minor changes to his style when he reviews the campaign log:

Feburary 3rd. Demonic sludge monsters appear. Group runs away from monsters. Paladin appears to smite sludge monsters. Group runs away from paladin.
February 10th. Fey overlord lays quest on PCs. Group runs away while dropping cold iron caltrops. Battle with minotaur ninja/shadowdancer. Group runs away in brightly lit area.
February 17th. Group fell in pit: villain arrives and begins monologue. Group forms human pyramid to escape pit and then runs away. Group caught in sticky webs by giant spider. Group uses Escape Artist to wriggle out of entangled clothing/armor and runs away.

As a side note, the feats Acrobatic, Fleet, Mobility, Nimble Moves and Run are all of great help in this play style.

Also, that's the style of play where the monk is king!


Durinor wrote:

I've been here. The guy who introduced me to D&D and who was my DM'd for about 15 years was great at making his world come alive, but he loved his invincible NPCs.

We frequently had DMPCs coming along with our group, and you could be sure they would be experts in everything, overshadowing the PCs. Fighter specialised in swordfighting? A mere amateur compared to the expert fencing skills of the bard DMPC. That sort of thing.

Added to this 'friendly' NPCs like church leaders or local authorities treated the group like dirt even when asking (demanding) our help. Dealing with the good guys was frequently as dangerous as dealing with the villains.

Encounters were so difficult that the TPK-fudged-into-capture was a recurring event. . .

I've played that game. That game sucks. That guy shouldn't GM a game, he should stay home and write a novel.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Evil Lincoln wrote:
Lincoln Hills wrote:

Perhaps the GM will make a few minor changes to his style when he reviews the campaign log:

Feburary 3rd. Demonic sludge monsters appear. Group runs away from monsters. Paladin appears to smite sludge monsters. Group runs away from paladin.
February 10th. Fey overlord lays quest on PCs. Group runs away while dropping cold iron caltrops. Battle with minotaur ninja/shadowdancer. Group runs away in brightly lit area.
February 17th. Group fell in pit: villain arrives and begins monologue. Group forms human pyramid to escape pit and then runs away. Group caught in sticky webs by giant spider. Group uses Escape Artist to wriggle out of entangled clothing/armor and runs away.

As a side note, the feats Acrobatic, Fleet, Mobility, Nimble Moves and Run are all of great help in this play style.

Also, that's the style of play where the monk is king!

Imagine what their daily routine is. Instead of just getting up and brushing their teeth:

1. Wake up.
2. Cast all day buffs. Keep second set in reserve because GM will auto-dispel them off of you so his NPC boss can destroy in a single round.
3. Drink Antitoxin because you are going to be poisoned.
4. Drink Antiplague because you are going to be diseased.
5. Apply Alchemical Grease to armor/clothes because you know you going to get hit with Web/Black Tentacles/Improved Grab monsters.
6. Spam Detect Evil/Magic every step you take to warn you of ambush. Not that it works because they'll get the surprise round on you anyway.
7. Wear shoes of Feather Step because all terrain is difficult terrain. Keep Slippers of Spider Climb/Boots of Flying in Haversack.
8. Carry Air Crystals for when you get teleported underwater.
9. Know that no matter how well you prepare or plan, you are going to lose anyway. Sometimes at the hands of your teammates.
10. Sniffle, snort, repeat. Or find a new GM. Or become the GM. :)

I agree a campaign like this defensive monk/caster builds are king. Paladins normally would be a good defensive choice...except they are too slow when they run away. But they can spam Detect Evil...so it may buy you that round of warning...or not.


You seem to really be viewing this game as a competition between yourself and the GM's avatars, while completely brushing the fact that it's a co-operative story telling mechanism with a few supposed random elements aside. When this game really comes right down to it it doesn't matter how much damage you rolled, how much damage your foe rolled, whether or not it's mechanically possible for you to strike each other, once you've joined a game you've subjected yourself to playing that Gamemaster's judgements, and if that foe needed to strike you down, there must be a reason for it. This is, of course, assuming that your GM isn't a dick.

Also, when the GM puts you up against a difficult encounter, and then "pulls his punches" it's because he's not actually *trying* to kill you, he's just putting you up against a difficult encounter for the fun of it.

Now, none of these GM specific variables may be valid in your game, as your GM might just be a dick, but he doesn't sound all that unreasonable. Sometimes in Pathfinder you get screwed up, because things are stronger than you.

One more thing; My group just completed a quest arch written by my GM for 7 level 4 characters, we had 5 show up consistently...nearly all the encounters were CR7,the final was a CR8 fight against a Magus with DR 10 with no weakness, except for a story element coming into play that wasn't active for 12 rounds, because my GM is a dick. We had no arcane caster, and one Cleric, difficult encounters can be overcome.

Pathfinder ain't a competition, yo, but I wasn't there, so don't take me all that seriously.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

TBH I kind of get butt hurt when faced with encounters I am supposed to lose. Encounters that are designed to be difficult, or even encounters that are overwhelming to the point you need to run away, I can deal with. Because in those kinds of encounters, if you figure out a way to win, or you get lucky, you can still win. But if a GM has laid out an encounter that can only have one possible resolution, you're just getting hosed. If I want to get hosed, I can go to work. I game to have fun, not to get hosed.


Rerednaw wrote:


Imagine what their daily routine is. Instead of just getting up and brushing their teeth:
1. Wake up.
2. Cast all day buffs. Keep second set in reserve because GM will auto-dispel them off of you so his NPC boss can destroy in a single round.
3. Drink Antitoxin because you are going to be poisoned.
4. Drink Antiplague because you are going to be diseased.
5. Apply Alchemical Grease to armor/clothes because you know you going to get hit with Web/Black Tentacles/Improved Grab monsters.
6. Spam Detect Evil/Magic every step you take to warn you of ambush. Not that it works because they'll get the surprise round on you anyway.
7. Wear shoes of Feather Step because all terrain is difficult terrain. Keep Slippers of Spider Climb/Boots of Flying in Haversack.
8. Carry Air Crystals for when you get teleported underwater.
9. Know that no matter how well you prepare or plan, you are going to lose anyway. Sometimes at the hands of your teammates.
10. Sniffle, snort, repeat. Or find a new GM. Or become the GM. :)

I agree a campaign like this defensive monk/caster builds...

Now I want to challenge the charop folks to build the most cowardly party possible.


UPDATE 2

After having a group meeting we decided to start another campaign, we will be meeting soon to discuss the details how we will proceed. I personally and clearly stated that I will not play a game of Player versus DM, everyone was ok with that decision. I also said that I was not into the sado masochist type of adventuring, I want to have fun and explore a wonderful world, not be shown that the DM is really good a making hard encounters.

I DM my Rise of the Runelord campaign on my side + a few other home brewed campaign over the years and never once I used a APL+4 CR versus a low level party. I rather love to make interesting encounter by having the baddies use mundane alchemical items, nets and other tricks like that, it add stress to the fight without clearly showing that every player should be ready to re-roll new PC every damn fight. I may not have 30 ++ years of experiences and played D&D with G. Gygnax in his basement, but I design video game for a living and I am pretty sure that most people would agree that when you have new players on board you should not torture and maim their PCs and have them killed in a trap butt naked at level 8 to prove a point, no?

Also I am sorry if you have to pull back your punches and you tell your players that they will only live on a whim of your generous and benevolent heart, what does that say about your DMing when it comes to monster and enemies NPCs? Do you refuse to acknowledge that "1" you rolled? Do you auto confirm crits left and right for the kick of it? How many times did you cheated to makes things happen the way you wanted it?
A DM should know what kind of danger he his exposing his player to and I honestly think that it's insulting your players when you look at them in the eye and you tell them "You know what you would be dead now if I would keep that roll".

Either way, we will try that again, this time I am there for character creation and I will ensure to have a properly optimized party. The player that used to play the cowardly wizard is now not playing anymore with us and will be replaced by another new player new to the system, I told the DM that he should think of the new players first when doing encounters.

I will keep this post updated and catalog progress we make from a neutral point of view, hoping this will help people avoid the mistakes our DM and our group will make in the future game. Feel free to ask questions or PM.


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Absynthyne wrote:
Lorosfyr wrote:

(Sorry in advance for the wall of text...)

+1

You know, rather than quoting AN ENTIRE WALL OF TEXT just to add +1, you could just, oh I don't know, maybe, just hit that little + symbol there in the upper right hand corner, put there for that very thing?

The Exchange

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Can I quote that last post and then write '+1' just to be ironic? Or would that make me a hipster?


Lincoln Hills wrote:
Can I quote that last post and then write '+1' just to be ironic? Or would that make me a hipster?

+Whatever, man.


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DrDeth wrote:
Absynthyne wrote:
Lorosfyr wrote:

(Sorry in advance for the wall of text...)

+1
You know, rather than quoting AN ENTIRE WALL OF TEXT just to add +1, you could just, oh I don't know, maybe, just hit that little + symbol there in the upper right hand corner, put there for that very thing?

Didn't notice the symbol in the upper corner.

I apologize if being forced to take the extra 0.0005 seconds to scroll your page down that extra inch was an ordeal that you had to struggle through. :(
Thank you for your polite criticism though. Obviously, I wouldn't want to anger anybody with my foolishness.


do not worry about it
you could play a rogue and use herolab like me and be called both stupid and useless in one day

it is a good thing I have no actual feelings or I would be crying in the shower right now with a bottle of wild turkey

Shadow Lodge

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Kimera757 wrote:
Quote:
Anyway the GM did not like my 24 AC at level 3 and decided that I should be thought a lesson, enter super awesome roguish NPC able to feint me and deal about 1d3 + 3d6 + 2 dmg, and also he was able to use spring attack.
How did you get such high AC?

Reminds me of a brand new PFS party in which two of the players made complementary "300"-style Phalanx Soldier fighters (0ne of the players also grew his beard just like a Spartan warrior out of the movie). They took the trait Defender of the Society and the Dodge feat, and spent their meager starting cash on Four Mirror armor (they had DEX:14 each) and tower shields...for 1st-level ACs of 24. The bad guys at Tier-2 could only hit them on natural 20s.

But they would roleplay every infrequent, minor scratch as if were life-threatening trauma:

"Oh! My brother! You have been WOUNDED!" (after one of them was nat-20/no-confirmed for 3 pts of damage)

-- We all just about died laughing.


Laiho Vanallo wrote:
I will keep this post updated and catalog progress we make from a neutral point of view, hoping this will help people avoid the mistakes our DM and our group will make in the future game.

As a side note, it's always a good idea to assume that at least your GM checks the boards on occasion for reference, and identifiable complaints like the ones you make here will be spotted eventually if you keep the thread bumped to the top.

Liberty's Edge

Whale_Cancer wrote:

Two options, as far as I can see:

1) Talk to the DM about how it is boring for PCs to lose the spotlight to NPCs. I think this point will be echoed by many, in which case you can direct your DM to this thread.

2) Find another DM.

So long as your DM is treating the NPCs as his Player Characters, you and your party are going to get trounced.

You said these NPCs are important to the campaign and the story. The problem is that no one should be more integral to the campaign and story than the Player Characters.

It seems as though the DM has relegated the PCs to the status of bit players.


Heymitch wrote:

So long as your DM is treating the NPCs as his Player Characters, you and your party are going to get trounced.

You said these NPCs are important to the campaign and the story. The problem is that no one should be more integral to the campaign and story than the Player Characters.

It seems as though the DM has relegated the PCs to the status of bit players.

I've seen that happen a lot. GMs who wish they were playing instead of running, so they make their own PC and stick it in the game to show the players' characters how it's done. Or frustrated wannabe authors who resent the fact that PCs aren't under their direct control, so they're shunted to the sidelines to watch the "main" characters in action.


Ximen Bao wrote:
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
I will keep this post updated and catalog progress we make from a neutral point of view, hoping this will help people avoid the mistakes our DM and our group will make in the future game.
As a side note, it's always a good idea to assume that at least your GM checks the boards on occasion for reference, and identifiable complaints like the ones you make here will be spotted eventually if you keep the thread bumped to the top.

What is the worse thing that could happen?

He would yell at me for for wanting the input and the somewhat neutral opinions of people on the board to make sure that the next campaign will be pleasant for everyone at the game table?

It's not like I said that he was a bad person, I just feel that he lacks certain abilities and proper skills when it comes to GMing with a group not entirely composed of veteran players.

What pushed me to post this tread in the first place was a desire of self examination, the fundamental question was: Am I overreacting to those displeasing element? What can I do as a player to ensure that I do not get stuck in those said displeasing elements?

If he as a problem with that well too bad for him and that's it! hahaha


Hello People!

We had our first session a few days ago, we also had our almost first party kill! it seams that my DM still do not understand that 1 level 4 caster can mop the floor with a level 1 party. One simple burning hand of a evocation focused sorcerer dropped 3/4 of the party.

This did not kill any players but we had to beg mercy to get away with this. The sad thing is that we took a lot of effort to go around that dungeon without killing any of the enemies, we focused with purely non- lethal combat tactics (color spray + slumber Hex + barbarian dealing non lethal).

I think simply put that spell-casters are too powerful to be put as enemies of a first level party, facing any level 2 spell when level 1 can be deadly for a group.

Even with optimized character our DM LOVE of spell-casters is starting to irritate me, have any of you ever faced a level 4 enemy while being level 1? if so how did that encounter did go?

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8

Laiho Vanallo wrote:

Hello People!

We had our first session a few days ago, we also had our almost first party kill! it seams that my DM still do not understand that 1 level 4 caster can mop the floor with a level 1 party. One simple burning hand of a evocation focused sorcerer dropped 3/4 of the party.

This did not kill any players but we had to beg mercy to get away with this. The sad thing is that we took a lot of effort to go around that dungeon without killing any of the enemies, we focused with purely non- lethal combat tactics (color spray + slumber Hex + barbarian dealing non lethal).

I think simply put that spell-casters are too powerful to be put as enemies of a first level party, facing any level 2 spell when level 1 can be deadly for a group.

Even with optimized character our DM LOVE of spell-casters is starting to irritate me, have any of you ever faced a level 4 enemy while being level 1? if so how did that encounter did go?

I don't know if I've seen that exact combination, although I will actually be running my 1st level party at a higher level caster... but he will be somewhat hindered due to a ritual he is trying to complete. I'll let you know how it goes. :)

That said, if I were a PC and we encountered a spellcaster who seemed much tougher than we were individually, I would do one of two things:

- If he won initiative, and immediately did major damage to us, I would run away.

- If he lost initiative, or his first volley was survivable, I would have everyone charge the sucker, preferably with the person with the best CMB grappling the dude. Which should be reasonably easy to do--a 4th level sorcerer should still have a lousy CMD versus the CMB of a well designed 1st level fighter or barbarian. A lone spellcaster may have nasty cannonfire, but should also be made of very, very fragile glass, and given the action economy favors the players, they could get the upper hand in that fight VERY quickly if they're smart about it.

All that said, is this the same GM as before? Why are you voluntarily joining a game he is running again? I guess some people just prefer to choose misery over fun, I guess.


A CR 4-5 enemy facing a level 1 group is always going to be devastating and unfair. Why would anyone do that?


Calybos1 wrote:
A CR 4-5 enemy facing a level 1 group is always going to be devastating and unfair. Why would anyone do that?

Because some encounters, every once and a while, should be devastating and unfair?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Lvl 5s are no where near badass. Maybe you will out level them soon and then be badass.

High rank generally means a powerful person. Maybe you and the GM have different views on how powerful people are in the world.


DeathQuaker wrote:


I don't know if I've seen that exact combination, although I will actually be running my 1st level party at a higher level caster... but he will be somewhat hindered due to a ritual he is trying to complete. I'll let you know how it goes. :)

That said, if I were a PC and we encountered a spellcaster who seemed much tougher than we were individually, I would do one of two things:

- If he won initiative, and immediately did major damage to us, I would run away.

- If he lost initiative, or his first volley was survivable, I would have everyone charge the sucker, preferably with the person with the best CMB grappling the dude. Which should be reasonably easy to do--a 4th level sorcerer should still have a lousy CMD versus the CMB of a well designed 1st level fighter or barbarian. A lone spellcaster may have nasty cannonfire, but should also be made of very, very fragile glass, and given the action economy favors the players, they could get the upper hand in that fight VERY quickly if they're smart about it.

All that said, is this the same...

Yes, it's the same group as before minus 1 player.

The game went super well until that fight I just saw "that" look on my girlfriend face after she got KO by failing one reflex save. She built her barbarian with 18 CON and took the toughness feat at first level. She had about 20 HP at level 1 and still she got shot down.

We are playing a no-evil allowed campaign, meaning that we cannot resort to assassinate the bastard sorcerer. Plainly said we have to find a way around that level 4-5 magic user.

I think that Paizo needs to review their CR scaling for low level parties versus higher CRs.


Laiho Vanallo wrote:
We are playing a no-evil allowed campaign, meaning that we cannot resort to assassinate the bastard sorcerer. Plainly said we have to find a way around that level 4-5 magic user.

What? Killing attackers isn't evil, assassinating evil isn't evil(it's agaist a paladin's code of honor, but not evil). A paladin's smite evil doesn't exactly tickle enemies into submission.

What does 'no evil allowed' mean?

And you're right: The CR scaling is no good for a single enemy with optimized PC-class levels as his or her main source of power. It's more for putting together teams of varying CRs. Especially at level 1.


Vamptastic wrote:
Calybos1 wrote:
A CR 4-5 enemy facing a level 1 group is always going to be devastating and unfair. Why would anyone do that?
Because some encounters, every once and a while, should be devastating and unfair?

I'll buy that argument as soon as I hear about a GM allowing a mid-level group of PCs to wipe the floor with a gang of low-level monsters.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Laiho Vanallo wrote:
We are playing a no-evil allowed campaign, meaning that we cannot resort to assassinate the bastard sorcerer.

Define "assassinate". Does your DM insist that you not get the drop on him? That's trying to force you to play Lawful Stupid. Good guys can and do fight sneaky and dirty, even paladins get to do it in extreme circumstances.

Laiho Vanallo wrote:
Plainly said we have to find a way around that level 4-5 magic user.

Have you bows you can shoot him with? Win initiative and charge him before he gets a chance to buff or attack?

Laiho Vanallo wrote:
I think that Paizo needs to review their CR scaling for low level parties versus higher CRs.

No, the CR system works IF you apply it properly. CR assumes basic stats for the creature - better stats = increase the CR. Same as better gear, advantageous circumstances etc.

For example, if the NPC is a 4th level sorcerer, he's base CR 3. If you have to fight him on unfavourable terrain (you can't just fill him with arrows out of range of his spells, for example) then that's a +1. If he has exceptional gear (PC equivelant gear) that adds another +1. That's CR 5, which for four 1st level characters is basically unwinnable.

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