Goblin Squad Member
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I was just thinking, I'd much rather have a human(oid) side-kick rather than a pet.
Pets have been done, and done, and done... I think it would be cool for a Paladin to have a squire; A Necromancer to have Zombie; An Assassin to have an Apprentice.
These side-kicks would function exactly like pets in other games, to keep it simple. But if GW was truly daring they might program the side-kicks to do simple tasks, like "fetch me a drink" or "distract that guard."
I'm not talking about side-kicks like in SWTOR, or the fighting pets that Hunters, Rangers or Druids get.
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Goblin Squad Member
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A good idea would be the side-kicks evolving too (sort of upgrade). So a mage starts with an apprentice and ends with a fully developped mage side-kick (weaker than him though).
We could have commands for side-kicks (and pets too actually) to flank the adversary among other moves.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Been discussed quite a bit in the olden days. I believe the key points that came up.
1. In mass PVP, it effectively doubles required characters to be drawn.
2. Doubles the complication of playing (may be good or bad depending on your perspective)
3. In games that do use such mechanics, the general purpose and use is to increase soloability, which could decrease human interaction.
I suppose the first key though is to define what the primary intent is for the value of the system, and is this really desirable?
I mean we are looking at a world where you will have humanoid companions most the time... thousands of other players, the decrease of the power curve should more than ensure that there will be droves of players capable of teaming with you if you so desire, odds are most of them should be better than any AI we could dream of.
As in from Leadership? I love it, yes. Please, do.
I was just thinking, I'd much rather have a human(oid) side-kick rather than a pet.
When the game gets going and I am turning a profit I hope to get a slave, err player, to brew my ale, repair my armor, etc. He gets experience in crafting and I live the life due to me. Plus, he's expendable.
Baring that, I wouldn't mind something else, but I think Onishi points out some drawbacks that need consideration. Maybe limited to inside a settlement, w/non-combatant status?|
Goblin Squad Member
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I was just thinking, I'd much rather have a human(oid) side-kick rather than a pet.When the game gets going and I am turning a profit I hope to get a slave, err player, to brew my ale, repair my armor, etc. He gets experience in crafting and I live the life due to me.
Actually fully viable, there are indeed players who want and enjoy the idea of being pure crafters, and they will depend on adventurers bringing back their spoils to turn into cool things.
I do doubt that crafting "experience" will really be a thing, as so far I've heard nothing to imply crafting is any different than other skills. IE once you have access to the training facilities, they level over time, at the same rate regardless of if you crafted non-stop, or just popped into the training facility to start the clock and then did nothing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would love to have the Leadership feat. That would be awesome.
Indeed, but leadership traditionally kicks when the main character hits about level 6 or 7, takes afeat and has other requirements and the secondary character is controlled by the player.
I have seen some pretty funky things done with leadership in PnP including captaining several corsair ships at once and sending a planar minion exploring other worlds unsafe for the main character.
HOWEVER ... I have a hunch what these guys want is something quite different ... a little body guard henchman to follow them around and help out in squabbles when they are vulnerable at low levels.
The Squire feat from Knights of the Inner Sea, errataed to be available at 3rd level, could take care of the bodyguard bit.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Maybe we could just limit the use of Kick-side NPCs while in party or war for example, allowing them only when you go solo. Lets keep in mind many dungeons and monster lairs may recquire party grouping and a Kick-side NPCs will not sufice to allow you to do it solo.
But I really think the leadership and handle animal skills should be key to people have access to this. Though I would not like to see all people around with animal companions all the time. Lets remmember that having animal companions is a Ranger and Druid key hability in PnP Pathfinder and adds to the char flavour and power. If everybody could easily have it balance would easily be broken. To get animal companions people should need to advance in druidic or Ranger archetype "skill tree".
Leadership should be available only for intermediate to advanced level chars, and bound to reputation maybe? That would be a way to control it a bit.
OMG... Lots of possibilities...
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would also like to see the leadership feat in game at some point. Nothing says badass like rolling into town with your own goon squad. I don't know how well it would work out balance wise. Perhaps you would be able to lead a unit of NPCs in a formation during mass combat.
Maybe, for example, our cohorts could help us just in the defense of our buldings, guild buildings, settlements we live in, when an attack is in course. That would be an interesting use of the leadership feat.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would also like to see the leadership feat in game at some point. Nothing says badass like rolling into town with your own goon squad. I don't know how well it would work out balance wise. Perhaps you would be able to lead a unit of NPCs in a formation during mass combat.
Ah, so like the CoX Mastermind powerset :D
(3 minions, 2 lts, 1 boss, plus with thugs you could summon an additional 9 or 18 non-controllable NPCs to go berzerk for ya)
I guess I don't really see what you want the "pet" to do for you, but as for the concerns over PvP lag and play complication, how would either of those be any worse with a humanoid shaped pet over an animal one?
also it seems like having a humanoid shaped pet could make for a cool "slaver" ability
The COH mastermind pets work pretty well,
LOTRO has several variations of heralds to carry your banner and stuff.
I don't see a good reason it couldn't be done in PFO, if everyone else can make it work
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Goblin Squad Member
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I guess I don't really see what you want the "pet" to do for you, but as for the concerns over PvP lag and play complication, how would either of those be any worse with a humanoid shaped pet over an animal one?
Quite true that both share the same flaws, and both would be particularly difficult in this style of game. Main flaw being for the most part, balancing them with not always present abilities.
For a companion of any sort to be balanced, your character itself has to be less in some way. In a class based game, this obviously is taken into account at the class level.
In PFO, a pet would have to take the place of some ability slots or something. Which... opens up a new can of worms with the ability slot system.
So, if we made it so that a pet took 2 of the 5 customizable weapon slots, that could work, but then comes a more difficult part... What happens when you switch weapons? Does the companion vanish? Become inert? etc...
If we assume the companion as a freebie, even at 2% the power level of a normal character, it still would be worth it as an essentially unslotted boost. At which point we run into issues of every person has it, and thus, a 100 vs 100 battle, has to render 200 vs 200 characters
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Goblin Squad Member
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I presume a pet or NPC would take one of the non-weapon slots.
Well that's pretty limited there. Here's what's left
Refresh SlotsMost combat abilities that are not tied to weapons are Refresh abilities, and they're placed in slots 7–10. These are things like spells, rage abilities, etc. If a character has a spellbook equipped, it can go into one of these slots; activating the spellbook turns all weapon slots into spell slots determined by the spellbook. Wizards will have to find and equip different spellbooks to get access to different spells, with some books being more valuable or rare than others.
Well not really a very good fit here, refresh slots these are pretty much by definition the slots that represent non-permanant burst type abilities that need to be regained.
Utility SlotsThe F1 and F2 slots are utility slots, used for abilities that are less combat-focused than those placed in the 1–10 slots. These include things like the Paladin's Detect Evil ability.
Well unless these are non-combat pets... not really appropriate, or fair to use for this
Consumable SlotsF3 and F4 are for consumable items like potions and scrolls.
Goes without saying, nope
Passive SlotsIn addition to the slots that require the player to hit a button or click to activate, there are a number of passive slots players can use to slot in permanent abilities that are always running. These are divided into three groups:
Defensive: Abilities that protect the character like Evasion or Uncanny Dodge.
Reactive: Abilities that activate when something sets them off, such as Diehard or Stand Up.
Aura: Abilities that affect characters in a radius, such as many Bard abilities or a Paladin's various Aura abilities.
OK now we're at something that can half way work... Depending on context I suppose it could be on par with an aura in power, though it doesn't really sound like one. Certainly not reactive. I suppose it technically could be defensive... but I can't think of any other possible skill that would also be offensive, as companions pretty much tend to fall into.
I see your point Onishi, but I'm not so sure it couldn't work on some combination of Refresh, Utility, and Consumable slots, beyond looking cool a human pet that recreates the effects (and burns charges) of potions or wands you carry would make a pretty cool pet that really does nothing.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm not really in to this, if everyone would have someone following them. .. I really don't like it other games when there's like tons of stuff following players. It brakes my immersion.
Would those that didn't want anyone following them be at a disadvantage or would it be a skill based system like everything else, that you would have to train to get followers and would they take action slots? Would they come to the bar with you? And stand there like stupid while you eat and drink? Would you have to gear them? So many question... Ah...
tons of people should have someone with them. Putting on a suit of armor is a multi person activity, you also wouldn't sleep in armor, and would have someone along the lines of a squire to clean, maintain, and dress you.
To a point you could think of anyone in a suit of metal armor as a modern day tank, how many people does it take to operate and maintain one of those?
how were pets handled in UO? i bailed about the time they came out
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Goblinworks Game Designer
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OK now we're at something that can half way work... Depending on context I suppose it could be on par with an aura in power, though it doesn't really sound like one. Certainly not reactive. I suppose it technically could be defensive... but I can't think of any other possible skill that would also be offensive, as companions pretty much tend to fall into.Aura: Abilities that affect characters in a radius, such as many Bard abilities or a Paladin's various Aura abilities.
We are, in fact, broadening the "Aura" slot into a more general "Special Role Feature" slot. So it'll still be Auras for Paladins but potentially other more appropriate powers for other roles. And we're doing some other cool things with the passive slots that we'll hopefully have designed out sufficiently to talk about soon.
Full power pets (like Ranger and Druid companions) will likely be heavily based on this slot. We're not deep enough on consideration for other types of minions to know if it will make sense to hook them in as well, though, or balance them some other way.
We have no firm concepts on Leadership companions/pets, though, so please continue to debate. Just wanted to clear up the Aura slot thing because we changed it a while ago and hadn't had a good chance to mention it. :)
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Goblin Squad Member
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We have no firm concepts on Leadership companions/pets, though, so please continue to debate. Just wanted to clear up the Aura slot thing because we changed it a while ago and hadn't had a good chance to mention it. :)
* Alternate use for leadership *
Consider making leadership an alternate way of gaining a "Destiny Twin".
That way the destiny twin will not be limited to just the KS contributing early starters main characters. Anyone can get a Destiny Twin by investing skills in leadership. Maybe even allow KS people a second if they also take leadership.
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Goblin Squad Member
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OK now we're at something that can half way work... Depending on context I suppose it could be on par with an aura in power, though it doesn't really sound like one. Certainly not reactive. I suppose it technically could be defensive... but I can't think of any other possible skill that would also be offensive, as companions pretty much tend to fall into.Aura: Abilities that affect characters in a radius, such as many Bard abilities or a Paladin's various Aura abilities.
We are, in fact, broadening the "Aura" slot into a more general "Special Role Feature" slot. So it'll still be Auras for Paladins but potentially other more appropriate powers for other roles. And we're doing some other cool things with the passive slots that we'll hopefully have designed out sufficiently to talk about soon.
Full power pets (like Ranger and Druid companions) will likely be heavily based on this slot. We're not deep enough on consideration for other types of minions to know if it will make sense to hook them in as well, though, or balance them some other way.
We have no firm concepts on Leadership companions/pets, though, so please continue to debate. Just wanted to clear up the Aura slot thing because we changed it a while ago and hadn't had a good chance to mention it. :)
Great info, thanks!
So while you have mentioned Auras for Paladins and Animal Companions for Druid/Rangers taking this slot, would be safe to assume that this would be where things like Domains for clerics, rage powers for Barbarians, sneak attack for Rogues, bloodline powers for Sorcs, and Unarmed and Unarmored fighting for monks would go?
This could be used in conjunction with the focus system to make single-classing more rewarding, as you would have limited slots to use those powers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see animal companions being taunted. So a ranger see a bear in the wilds and (if your skill level allow it) instead of attacking it for pelt he taunts the bear and the animal is now his companion.
I believe you mean tamed.
Taunting would be yelling at it to provoke it to attack you.
Taming would be to get it to learn not to attack you, and reach beyond it's normal instincts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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SRD:
Wild Empathy (Ex)
A druid can improve the attitude of an animal. This ability functions just like a Diplomacy check made to improve the attitude of a person. The druid rolls 1d20 and adds her druid level and her Charisma modifier to determine the wild empathy check result.
The typical domestic animal has a starting attitude of indifferent, while wild animals are usually unfriendly.
To use wild empathy, the druid and the animal must be able to study each other, which means that they must be within 30 feet of one another under normal conditions. Generally, influencing an animal in this way takes 1 minute but, as with influencing people, it might take more or less time.
A druid can also use this ability to influence a magical beast with an Intelligence score of 1 or 2, but she takes a –4 penalty on the check.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see animal companions being taunted. So a ranger see a bear in the wilds and (if your skill level allow it) instead of attacking it for pelt he taunts the bear and the animal is now his companion.I believe you mean tamed.
Taunting would be yelling at it to provoke it to attack you.
Taming would be to get it to learn not to attack you, and reach beyond it's normal instincts.
LOL indeed indeed
*taking notes*
"This human language has lots of trick words, and they don't have runes just this crazy alphabet!"
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Goblin Squad Member
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I would like to see animal companions being taunted. So a ranger see a bear in the wilds and (if your skill level allow it) instead of attacking it for pelt he taunts the bear and the animal is now his companion.I believe you mean tamed.
Taunting would be yelling at it to provoke it to attack you.
Taming would be to get it to learn not to attack you, and reach beyond it's normal instincts.
LOL indeed indeed
*taking notes*
"This human language has lots of trick words, and they don't have runes just this crazy alphabet!"
and now I can't get the image of a druid using speak with animals on a bear. "Your mother is so lazy, she had to take a nap after hibernating."
