Are Faerie Dragons Sorcerers?


Rules Questions

Dark Archive

7 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ.

Their entry in Bestiary 3 says they cast their list of spells as a 3rd level sorcerer, so are they sorcerers for the purpose of using spell-trigger and spell completion magic items? For example, would a faerie dragon need to make a UMD check to use a scroll or wand of a spell on the sorcerer/wizard list?

Liberty's Edge

"Wands use the spell trigger activation method"

"Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell."

"Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls."

"To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already."

Short answer: Yes.

Longer answer: They can cast spells as a sorcerer, basically having the "Spells" class ability, therefore, they meet the criteria for these magic items.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

And, if you advance the monster by adding sorcerer class levels, the creature's caster level stacks. So, a faerie dragon with threee sorcerer levels casts spells as a 6th level sorcerer.

Sovereign Court

Wait wait. A base faerie dragon does not have class levels. Their "class" is not responsible for their casting ability. Therefore they should not be able to use wands without a UMD check or a class level.

I'm going to disagree and request a FAQ.

Sovereign Court

I think Alice Margatroid is correct.

There is a lot of chatter about this topic over in the Pathfinder Society forums...

This post might help.

It does not specifically say they are or are not sorcerers, but for the purposes of using magic items, I do believe they are considered to have '(spontaneous) spell caster levels'

and they do draw those spells from the sorcerer spell lists...


I agree with Vendle, I see nothing to suggest it is actually a sorcerer. It has no class levels, its HD are d12's, and if it was a 3rd level sorcerer not only would it have more abilities (bloodline stuff) it would also not need to specify that it casts as a 3rd level sorcerer.

As such I don't think it could bypass the umd prerequisites. It simply casts as a 3rd level sorcerer, it is not a 3rd level sorcerer.


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The spell completion and spell trigger lines don't say you have to have the class, only that you must be able to cast the spell -- which the faerie dragon can do.

See also:

Advancing monsters wrote:


Once you have determined the creature's role, it's time to add class levels. The first step of this process is to modify the creature's ability scores. Creatures with class levels receive +4, +4, +2, +2, +0, and –2 adjustments to their ability scores, assigned in a manner that enhances their class abilities. Creatures with NPC class levels do not receive adjustments to their ability scores.

Next, add the class levels to the monster, making all of the necessary additions to its HD, hit points, BAB, CMB, CMD, feats, skills, spells, and class features. If the creature possesses class features (such as spellcasting or sneak attack) for the class that is being added, these abilities stack. This functions just like adding class levels to a character without racial Hit Dice.

A monster with class levels always possesses treasure equal to an NPC of a level equal to the monster's final CR (as calculated in Step 3, below). To determine the value of this gear, use the value listed for a heroic NPC of that level, as listed in Table NPC Gear. Once a total GP value is determined, follow the rules for outfitting an NPC as outlined in that section. Gear should help a monster with class levels remain challenging and retain statistics close to those presented on Table: Monster Statistics by CR.

There are a whole host of monsters with class abilities from animals with a form of rage, to the bogeyman with sneak attack to celestial creatures with smite evil to solars with spell casting abilities like the faerie dragon to many, many others.


I had considered that already but thank you for pointing it out.

I should have been more specific. While yes I agree they would be able to use wands from their limited spell list, they should not be able to do so for any spell on the sorc/wizard spell list. Dust Raven specifically asked about casting a wand that had a spell from that list, which is different from the Faerie Dragon's list.

I do realize, however, that I was pretty vague originally by just saying its not a sorcerer. So thank you again for bringing that up.

Edit: Of course for all I know I am misinterpreting how the Faerie Dragon's spells work, if he does somehow have access to the rest of the sorc/wiz spell list, I would like to see how, for future reference.


I'll show you:

Quote:

Spells

A faerie dragon casts spells as a 3rd-level sorcerer.

Quote:


A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level

SO my return question would be if a faerie dragon doesn't pull spells from the sorcerer/wizard list, where does the faerie dragon pull them from?

Consider while you are answering that the true dragons.

As well as the solar -- where do their spells come from if not from the list of the class they cast as?


Faerie dragons are to sorcerers as spell like abilities are to spells.


You know Wale cancer I want to argue with that but it actually works.


Sah wrote:

I had considered that already but thank you for pointing it out.

I should have been more specific. While yes I agree they would be able to use wands from their limited spell list, they should not be able to do so for any spell on the sorc/wizard spell list. Dust Raven specifically asked about casting a wand that had a spell from that list, which is different from the Faerie Dragon's list.

I do realize, however, that I was pretty vague originally by just saying its not a sorcerer. So thank you again for bringing that up.

Edit: Of course for all I know I am misinterpreting how the Faerie Dragon's spells work, if he does somehow have access to the rest of the sorc/wiz spell list, I would like to see how, for future reference.

The faerie dragon's spells are a default selection, similar to how an NPC sorceror/wiz has a specific set of selected spells in his/her statblock. If you count the spells/day and spells/known, you'll see they match up perfectly to a 3rd level sorc with 16 CHA. You could quite feasibly construct a faerie dragon with a different spell selection (as long as it was still as a lvl 3 sorc)and totally be in RAW, just as you could create an NPC with 3 sorc levels and choose whatever spells you wanted. So yeah, the sorc/wizard spell list *is* the faerie dragon list. If this was not the intention, the FD spells would've been statted up as SLAs instead.

Liberty's Edge

I'm with Haladir, Blakmane, et al.

The faerie dragon is, for all game purposes, a 3rd level sorcerer when it comes to the Spells class feature. There is no more difference than if a creature had a racial +3d6 sneak attack and took rogue levels.

The faerie dragon can use any item that requires spellcasting just as a sorcerer would, and it can take sorcerer levels to improve casting further as the racial and class effective spellcasting levels stack. Heck, they could take a "+spellcasting" prestige class and skip sorcerer entirely.

As for other examples:

The Nymph does the same thing in relation to Druid spells.
The Dark Stalker does the same thing in relation to a rogue's sneak attack.
Older true dragons do the same thing in relation to Sorcerer spells.

This construct has existed in the game at least since 3.X and PF simply chose to continue it, as evidenced by rules text quoted by Abraham spalding above.


StabbittyDoom wrote:

I'm with Haladir, Blakmane, et al.

The faerie dragon is, for all game purposes, a 3rd level sorcerer when it comes to the Spells class feature. There is no more difference than if a creature had a racial +3d6 sneak attack and took rogue levels.

The faerie dragon can use any item that requires spellcasting just as a sorcerer would, and it can take sorcerer levels to improve casting further as the racial and class effective spellcasting levels stack. Heck, they could take a "+spellcasting" prestige class and skip sorcerer entirely.

As for other examples:

The Nymph does the same thing in relation to Druid spells.
The Dark Stalker does the same thing in relation to a rogue's sneak attack.
Older true dragons do the same thing in relation to Sorcerer spells.

This construct has existed in the game at least since 3.X and PF simply chose to continue it, as evidenced by rules text quoted by Abraham spalding above.

Those were quoted from pathfinder to be honest, but I can track the same language all the way through AD&D with my books personally, and I bet if I looked I could probably take it further back than that.

Dark Archive

This is good news! I seem to run into an alarmingly high number of faerie dragons which seem perpetually good natured and helpful. Seems it would be very helpful to talk one into hiding in the bushes with a wand of summon monster II once in awhile. And someday one of these helpful allies will be my sorcerer's familiar.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Dust Raven wrote:
Their entry in Bestiary 3 says they cast their list of spells as a 3rd level sorcerer, so are they sorcerers for the purpose of using spell-trigger and spell completion magic items? For example, would a faerie dragon need to make a UMD check to use a scroll or wand of a spell on the sorcerer/wizard list?

They're sorcerers in the way that all magic-using dragons are sorcerers. They cast the spells and can use the appropriate items.

They don't have bloodlines and the attendent mechanics, because they ARE dragons after all, albeit very small ones.

Sovereign Court

"Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell."

While Abraham spalding is wrong, I think the condition is still being met.

Casting (Spells) as a sorcerer qualifies for the purpose of spell trigger items.

Glad to have my humble pie once in a while.

Paizo Employee Official Rules Response

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FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fo#v5748eaic9qps

Spells: Can a monster with spellcasting ability use spell trigger and spell completion items?

Yes, a spellcasting creature counts as a member of that class for any effect or ability relating to casting spells as that class. For example, it can use spell completion and spell trigger items usable by that class or use magic items that affect that class’s spellcasting (such as incense of meditation or a pearl of power).

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

So if you give a faerie dragon sorcerer levels, does it get bloodline powers based on it's actual sorcerer levels, but spellcasting based on its combined sorcerer+racial sorcerer levels?


My assumption is yes. A Wizard has spellcasting ability, and also gets free spells every level. Once a Wizard takes levels in a prestige class, many prestige classes advance the spellcasting but do not grant the free spells. That's how I see a faerie dragon, except the levels without extra features come first.

This would also be a little strange, since a Great Wyrm Dragon that takes a single sorceror level would otherwise suddenly gain access to a very high level class ability for just one level. Doesn't fit.


I was looking at the various improved familiars, and the tidal dragon appears to be a caster much as the Faerie Dragon, but the wording is a little different than the Faerie Dragon entry, so I wondered.

I use the Pathfinder d20pfsrd usually when I look something up on the computer.


Ascalaphus wrote:
So if you give a faerie dragon sorcerer levels, does it get bloodline powers based on it's actual sorcerer levels, but spellcasting based on its combined sorcerer+racial sorcerer levels?

You are correct.


Ascalaphus wrote:
So if you give a faerie dragon sorcerer levels, does it get bloodline powers based on it's actual sorcerer levels, but spellcasting based on its combined sorcerer+racial sorcerer levels?

I would assume so. However, I also wonder if it's necessary to give it class levels at all. True dragons advance their spellcasting as they gain HD, so would advancing the Faerie Dragon's racial HD have the same effect?


Ascalaphus wrote:
So if you give a faerie dragon sorcerer levels, does it get bloodline powers based on it's actual sorcerer levels, but spellcasting based on its combined sorcerer+racial sorcerer levels?

Tagged this for FAQ. One of my co-workers is playing an awakened faerie dragon in an upcoming campaign, and he was interested in the answer. His assumption was the same as the responses below - you gain bloodline powers based on your sorcerer levels, but for general spellcasting you include your racial hit dice as levels as well.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Ok, just so I have it straight in my head. From SKR's response, it seems like :

A Fairie Dragon Sorcerer 1 (Dragon bloodline obviously) would have all the abilities of a 1st level Sorcerer, but would have spellcasting as a 4th level sorcerer. So he'd have access to 7 1st level spells (6 base, + 1 for stat, theoretically), as well as 4 2nd level spells (3 base, +1 for stat, theoretically). He'd also have 6 cantrips known, 3 1st level spells known, and 1 second level spell known. He'd have a caster level of 4.

Sound right?


Faerie Dragons don't need to be awakened. They are intelligent on their own.


Thrund wrote:

I would assume so. However, I also wonder if it's necessary to give it class levels at all. True dragons advance their spellcasting as they gain HD, so would advancing the Faerie Dragon's racial HD have the same effect?

Faerie dragons are not true dragons. They are just creatures with the dragon type.

The only true dragons in the Bestiaries are the chromatic and metallic ones in the first Bestiary, Primal dragons from Bestiary 2, and Imperial dragons from Bestiary 3.

Quote:

Ok, just so I have it straight in my head. From SKR's response, it seems like :

A Fairie Dragon Sorcerer 1 (Dragon bloodline obviously) would have all the abilities of a 1st level Sorcerer, but would have spellcasting as a 4th level sorcerer. So he'd have access to 7 1st level spells (6 base, + 1 for stat, theoretically), as well as 4 2nd level spells (3 base, +1 for stat, theoretically). He'd also have 6 cantrips known, 3 1st level spells known, and 1 second level spell known. He'd have a caster level of 4.

Sound right?

Correct. Though it doesn't have to choose the Dragon bloodline. That would just be the one that makes the most sense.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Faerie Dragons don't need to be awakened. They are intelligent on their own.

Thanks, didn't realize that. I'm just playing in that particular game so I haven't seen his character\reviewed its creation.

@MDT: I believe you're correct. Co-worker may have found the answer in the bestiary.

Sovereign Court

For most draconoids though, the Dragon bloodline is (unsurprisingly) lackluster; lots of stuff you already have.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

In my own game, I'd probably restrict dragons to draconic bloodline. Although, I might also allow a faerie dragon to take the Fey bloodline. :)


They use that for 2 reasons

1 using the Class determines the Modifiers... Since it is already there it makes it easier when calculating...

Second it is because the spells are innate and informing you the type of caster they are. Granted I really don't know any Wizard types but I believe there are other classes that use abilities as if they were a class level.

If you gave them levels in that class

For those spells the caster level goes up but they would only be a Caster level say 3 if they had 3 levels of Sorc

Sovereign Court

I think they went with sorcerer because sorcerer NPCs/monsters are much less of a hassle than wizards; you don't have to worry about which spells it's got prepared and which ones it already used. No complaints from players about how the NPCs are metagaming to have precisely the right spells prepared, and all that. And just plain less preparation; make a spell list and figure out what to use based on the situation as it unfolds.

They didn't use oracles for the divine beasties because oracles aren't in the CRB, otherwise they probably would have. Witness some monsters casting as sorcerers but drawing (also) from the divine spell lists.


mdt wrote:

Ok, just so I have it straight in my head. From SKR's response, it seems like :

A Fairie Dragon Sorcerer 1 (Dragon bloodline obviously) would have all the abilities of a 1st level Sorcerer, but would have spellcasting as a 4th level sorcerer. So he'd have access to 7 1st level spells (6 base, + 1 for stat, theoretically), as well as 4 2nd level spells (3 base, +1 for stat, theoretically). He'd also have 6 cantrips known, 3 1st level spells known, and 1 second level spell known. He'd have a caster level of 4.

Sound right?

Correct. :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeraa wrote:


Correct. Though it doesn't have to choose the Dragon bloodline. That would just be the one that makes the most sense.

Not really, Fey, Sylvan, make even more sense.


mdt wrote:
In my own game, I'd probably restrict dragons to draconic bloodline. Although, I might also allow a faerie dragon to take the Fey bloodline. :)

Oh, now that's fun!

"Say...you're not ticklish, are you? I'll bet you are!"


Clearly a faerie dragon should be arcane bloodline, and take improved familiar at seventh level to get a faerie dragon familiar.


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"Sweet, I get a girlfriend automatically!"


Ascalaphus wrote:

I think they went with sorcerer because sorcerer NPCs/monsters are much less of a hassle than wizards; you don't have to worry about which spells it's got prepared and which ones it already used. No complaints from players about how the NPCs are metagaming to have precisely the right spells prepared, and all that. And just plain less preparation; make a spell list and figure out what to use based on the situation as it unfolds.

They didn't use oracles for the divine beasties because oracles aren't in the CRB, otherwise they probably would have. Witness some monsters casting as sorcerers but drawing (also) from the divine spell lists.

Wizards typically come with loot built in, too (the spellbook). At least with sorcerors it's possible to have them arrive with a signature spell without automatically giving it to the wizard after the battle. Even if the GM takes pains to keep spellbooks away, they may be a mere create treasure map away.

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