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I am mostly new to PF only been playing for two months and I want to make a monk for a new campaign. I want him to use flurry of blows and grappling I am just not sure what weapon to use with it. Also any suggestions on good feats/traits for levels 1-10 would be great. My goal is to be a tanky dps but I am not sure how good monks are at that because I have yet to play with one. I love the saves but the ac is low, do monks make up for this with rings/necks/wrist/headband because they don't have to buy armor??
Sooo tired time to sleep ill reply after sleep. :)
thanks
I think you are asking too much of a weak class.
Damage: if you want DPS, the monk is a poor choice. Barbarians, fighters, paladins, rangers, even the magus without spells does it better. Your unarmed damage looks great, but in damage the deciding factors are not the damage dice but the threat range and static bonuses are more important deciding factors at high level. That doesn't mean a monk cannot inflict DPS, it's just not as easy and you won't do as much.
MAD means that you need three good stats: dexterity and wisdom for the AC, monk abilities, skills etc. Strength to hit and do damage. You just can't manage all three, and still have a decent Con score (you only have d8 hit dice). If you want to be good at maneuvers, you need Combat Expertise and that means you need some intelligence.
All that said, you can manage a decent approximation of what you want, if you are prepared to suck up the disadvantages.
1) Hulk-Smash Monk
Yes, it's not the traditional orange-robed little Shaolin wise man, it's a hulking mountain of muscle. But he has good hit and damage from the start, even if his AC isn't going to be great. Dexterity will be mediocre, so AC won't be the best, but this monk design lets you hit things and hit them reasonably hard. At low levels, use a Temple Sword as it's the only half-way decent a monk gets.
2) Wise Monk
Concentrate on wisdom rather than strength, and at the earliest opportunity take an amulet of mighty fists with the guided weapon property, which will give you wisdom to hit and damage rather than strength. Until you do, though, you will suck, and you won't make a very good grappler. However, you can have a great AC with high dex and wis, and your stunning fist might work more than once in a blue moon.
3) Fast Monk
I think this may suit you best. The fast monk ignores strength and maxes out dexterity. You take Weapon Finesse and Agile Maneuvers at first level (always), and that Dex bonus now aids you in maneuvers and hitting, so you can grapple as well as hit things, even if your damage isn't great. Take an agile amulet of mighty fists at the first chance you get and you add your dex bonus to damage as well. AC is good again, as your main stats are dex and wis.
Feats and Styles:
You can't avoid style feats, in fact you want them, they are the best thing to happen to monks even if they were implemented in such a way that other classes get more out of them. However, if you want flurry of blows you don't want a Master of Many Styles (it's a dip class for other classes anyway) as it gives it up, so you want to choose one Style and stick with it.
Others may disagree, but with your stated objectives I would suggest considering the following:
Crane Style - If you want defensive, this is the best as you deflect one attack per round with Crane Wing. It does penalise your chances to hit, though.
Dragon Style - great for hulk-smash monk, as you get a nice damage boost. Good for DPR.
Panther Style - is great if you are going to use that mobility, although it means NOT avoiding AoO's.
Snake Style - perfect for the fast monk, as you get attacks coming out of your ears when the enemy attacks you and misses. Always combine with Combat Reflexes.
Feats to aim for:
Monks are not damage kings, so I would suggest some maneuvers would help you contribute in combat. Grapple, Trip and Disarm are my favourites, and you can get all of them through bonus feats. You've already mentioned you want to grapple, and that's a good idea at low level. At higher levels maneuvers taper off in usefulness, so don't invest too much if you are not going to be a maneuver specialist.
One problem many monk tank builds suffer from is an inability to do much if the enemy doesn't directly attack you. Combat Patrol allows attacks of opportunity over a wider area around you, and it's a feat worth considering working toward.
Feats to avoid:
The one feat I see monks taking that they really shouldn't is Power Attack. Tiger Style allows you to take the hit to AC rather than attack bonus, but that's a mixed blessing. On the whole for any combat class Power Attack usually costs you as much in lost hits as it gains you in damage per hit. The only exception is a two-handed specialist with Furious Focus. As a monk, your number of attacks is usually more important and you hitting chance suffers enough as it is.
Archetypes
Qinggong Monk is the best all-round archetype, period. You get to select your abilities rather than suffer a mixed grab-bag of abilities that do not synergise. If you want a tank, the barkskin ability at 4th level is a must.
Zen Archer and Sohei are decent, if not stellar performers. Flowing Monk is interesting, and if you want damage the Monk of the Four Winds is OK.
My best advice is look at these and see if any grab you.
dont use a weapon instead be unarmed because you gain bonues on flurry of blows plus if you are not wearing armor you gain a natural bonues to you ac. Monks are great aginst fighters, because they are mostly close combat a charaters with lots of armor and monk can do lethal damage to them with armor.
If you still want Flurry, I do suggest using a weapon. Two-handing a Temple Sword can put out a very respectable amount of DPS, you've effectively got the best of both worlds, 1.5x Str to damage, and Two-Weapon Fighting's amazing number of attacks, all with effective Full BaB and no penalty on hits besides the usual -5 from iteratives later on.
Snag the Sacred Mountain Monk archetype for tanking, they get +1 Natural armor to AC and a +4 (I believe) when starting and ending in the same square, and Toughness for free, all for the loss of a few meh abilities like Slow Fall and High Jump. Qinggong is generally assumed to be the default, I suggest trying to pick up some utility abilities like Barkskin later on.
Stats-wise, pump Str, make sure not to neglect your Con, and go halvesies on Dex and Wis. Both add to your AC AND Saves, so you don't want to neglect one just to pump the other one up a mod or two. You can dump Cha but I'd suggest leaving Int at 10 at least.
Human for the bonus Feat and floating +2 (and extra skill point) is always good, but a Dwarf's natural Con and Wis bonuses are nothing to sneeze at for a Monk, and your Fast Movement offsets his movement penalty pretty nicely.
I still also suggest getting Power Attack and maybe Furious Focus. Every little bit of damage counts, and if you're Flurrying and have pumped Str you should have to-hit to spare for it to matter. Won't be able to get it until 3rd level, but oh well. Crane Style could really help with AC as well.
dont use a weapon instead be unarmed because you gain bonues on flurry of blows plus if you are not wearing armor you gain a natural bonues to you ac. Monks are great aginst fighters, because they are mostly close combat a charaters with lots of armor and monk can do lethal damage to them with armor.
Um...no. Just not going to happen, the fighter has too many advantages and will splatter the monk. They will have comparable AC, but the fighter hits way better and does more damage. The monk's best option is using maneuvers to trip and disarm the fighter before beating on him, and given that the fighter's weapon training also adds to their CMD disarming isn't likely to happen all that often.
I have seen a monk have a chance of winning this in two ways:
1) A monk at range racing from cover to cover using Shot On The Run and his Deflect Arrows. Dear god, but it took hours.
2) A monk trip-master with Crane Style. The fighter kept getting dumped on his butt, getting up, making a single attack and then getting it deflected with Crane Wing as he was whittled down. Then he got smart, got up, took a five-foot step backwards, and drank a potion of fly. Then he chopped the monk to bits, but it was close!
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Well after all that information i am not totally convinced i want to go monk now. :( Although maybe my answer is to level dip into it with fighter. I am also confused why you can use flurry with temple sword if its not on the list of weapons you can flurry with. ( on the PFSRD) If i do just get a level or 2 in monk what gets me the best bang for my buck. I would be going twf fighter in this case.
BIG thanks i love the pathfinder community <3.
Temple sword is the only weapon in the APG that monks get default proficiency with, and can flurry with. Monks can flurry wioth any weapon of type 'monk' although they are not automatically proficient with it (yes, I agree, that's dumb).
Monks are hard work. They can work in some games, and I would recommend using your skills and traits to make your monk more useful to the party in other ways.
Here's an example of a working monk that functions pretty well:
Male Human (Vudrani) Monk 13
LG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +8; Senses Perception +21
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Defense
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AC 34, touch 30, flat-footed 25 (+4 armor, +8 Dex, +2 deflection, +1 dodge)
hp 81 (13d8+13)
Fort +12, Ref +19, Will +16
Defensive Abilities Evasion, Improved Evasion; Immune Diamond Body, disease, poison; SR 23
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Offense
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Speed 70 ft.
Melee +1 Mithral Kama +18/+13 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham +18/+13 (1d6+1/x2) and
. . Unarmed Strike +19/+14 (FoB +21/+21/+16/+16/+11) (2d6+9/19-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Crossbow, Light +18/+13 (1d8+1/19-20/x2) and
. . Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken +18/+13 (1d2+1/x2)
Special Attacks Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1, Ki Strike, Lawful, Ki Strike, Magic
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Statistics
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Str 10/12, Dex 20/26, Con 10/12, Int 14, Wis 16/20, Cha 8
Base Atk +9; CMB +21 (+23 Grappling, +23 Tripping); CMD 40 (42 vs. Grapple, 42 vs. Trip)
Feats Agile Maneuvers, Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round), Crane Riposte, Crane Style, Crane Wing, Dodge, Improved Critical (Unarmed Strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Monk Weapon Proficiencies, Spring Attack, Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (Unarmed Strike)
Traits Vagabond Child (urban) (Disable Device), Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb)
Skills Acrobatics +24, Appraise +3, Climb +20, Disable Device +32, Escape Artist +13, Heal +6, Intimidate +3, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +4, Knowledge (history) +10, Knowledge (local) +6, Knowledge (religion) +8, Perception +21, Ride +12, Sense Motive +21, Sleight of Hand +13, Stealth +24, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Varisian, Vudrani
SQ Abundant Step, AC Bonus +8, Astrolabe, Earplugs, Fast Movement (+40'), High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point), Ki Defense, Ki Pool, Maneuver Training, Map Maker's Kit, Purity of Body, Ram, portable, Slow Fall 60', Smoked Goggles, Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger), Unarmed Strike (2d6), Vow of Truth (+2 Ki), Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use)
Combat Gear +1 Crossbow, Light, +1 Mithral Kama, Masterwork Cold Iron Shuriken (50), Masterwork Cold Iron Siangham; Other Gear Acid Flask (3), Agile Amulet, Alchemist's Fire Flask (3), Alkali Flask (3), Astrolabe, Bedroll, Belt of Incredible Dexterity, +6, Bladeguard, Blanket, winter, Bracers of Armor, +4, Caltrops (2), Chalk, 1 piece, Climber's kit, Cloak of Resistance, +3, Crowbar, Earplugs, Everburning torch, Fishhook, Flint and steel, Goggles of Minute Seeing, Grappling hook, Hammer, Handy Haversack (67 @ 129.64 lbs), Headband of Inspired Wisdom, +4, Heatstone, Holy Water Flask (3), Ioun Stone, Dusty Rose Prism, Ioun Stone, Pale Blue Rhomboid, Ioun Stone, Pink Rhomboid, Liquid Ice (3), Map Maker's Kit, Mirror, small steel, Oil of Bless Weapon (2), Piton (10), Pole, 10-foot, Pot, iron, Potion of Cure Moderate Wounds (2), Potion of Fly, Potion of Invisibility, Potion of Remove Curse, Potion of Resist Acid 10, Potion of Resist Fire 10, Powder (2), Ram, portable, Rations, trail (per day) (3), Ring of Protection, +2, Rope, silk (50 ft.) (2), Sack (empty), Sack (empty), Sewing needle, Smoked Goggles, Spade or shovel, Spyglass, Sunrod (3), Tanglefoot bag (3), Thieves' tools, masterwork, Twine (50'), Whetstone
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Special Abilities
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Abundant Step (Su) For 2 Ki points, use dimension door.
AC Bonus +8 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Agile Maneuvers Use DEX instead of STR for CMB
Astrolabe +2 navigation
Combat Reflexes (9 AoO/round) You may make up to 9 attacks of opportunity per round, and may make them while flat-footed.
Crane Riposte When you deflect an attack, you may make an attack of opportunity
Crane Style Take -2 penalty when fighting defensively
Crane Wing May deflect one attack per round while fighting defensively or using total defense
Diamond Body (Su) At 11th level, a monk gains immunity to poisons of all kinds.
Earplugs +2 save vs. hearing effects, -5 hearing-based Perception.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+40') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +11/+11/+6/+6/+1 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full action.
High Jump (+13/+33 with Ki point) (Ex) +13 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You grapple at +2, with no attacks of opportunity allowed.
Improved Trip You Trip at +2 and don't cause an attack of opportunity.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Map Maker's Kit +2 Circumstance for Survival to avoid becoming lost.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Ram, portable +2 to STR checks to break open a door, and allows a second helper (+2).
Slow Fall 60' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Smoked Goggles +8 save vs. visual effects, -4 sight-based Perception and you treat all opponents as having 20% concealment.
Spell Resistance (23) You have Spell Resistance.
Spring Attack You can move - attack - move when attacking with a melee weapon.
Stunning Fist (13/day) (DC 21) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken, Stagger) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (2d6) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Vow of Truth (+2 Ki) The monk is not allowed to deliberately speak any lies, including bluffing, stating half-truths with the intent to deceive, exaggerating, telling white lies, and so on. This applies to all forms of communication. If presented with circumstances where
Wholeness of Body (13 HP/use) (Su) Self-heal monk level in damage for 2 Ki points.
Wisdom in the Flesh (Climb) Climb becomes a Wisdom-based, class skill.
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Here is an interesting Feat Choice: Hamatula Strike. Basically, when using a piercing weapon (which includes cestus or unarmed strikes under snake style), you can make a free grapple check on a successful hit. If you succeed, you impale the target on your weapon, and you both gain the grappled condition. So if I am reading this right, you can take a few of the better hits on your Flurry of blows, pick the last one you think you can get away with, and then start grappling (which also still does damage)
It comes a bit late though, since you need 7 BAB. The cestus is a good choice of weapon for this feat, since it does bludgeoning or piercing damage, it is a monk weapon which monks get automatic proficiency in, and it is in APG. Also, your hands are still technically free for general purposes (though you lose -2 dex based checks, but hey, you are not a skill monkey anyways unless you go for Brother of the Seal)
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Temple sword is the only weapon in the APG that monks get default proficiency with, and can flurry with. Monks can flurry wioth any weapon of type 'monk' although they are not automatically proficient with it (yes, I agree, that's dumb).
Monks are hard work. They can work in some games, and I would recommend using your skills and traits to make your monk more useful to the party in other ways.
Here's an example of a working monk that functions pretty well:
** spoiler omitted **...
What was your point buy at 1? It must be 30???
If I had 30 I would go for it but mines only 20. :(
Temple sword is the only weapon in the APG that monks get default proficiency with, and can flurry with. Monks can flurry wioth any weapon of type 'monk' although they are not automatically proficient with it (yes, I agree, that's dumb).
Monks are hard work. They can work in some games, and I would recommend using your skills and traits to make your monk more useful to the party in other ways.
Here's an example of a working monk that functions pretty well:
** spoiler omitted **...
What was your point buy at 1? It must be 30???
If I had 30 I would go for it but mines only 20. :(
It was 20 point buy, with the +2 from human in Dex. Remember he has a lot of stat boosters, and +3 from level increases (all in Dexterity as well).
@Aterlost:
Two things to remember, is that at low level grapple is very effective with Agile Maneuvers. While it wasn't Icandu (he was constructed as an example monk in a long-dead thread) my previous played monk was similarly built and very effective against single foes once he got his hands on them - remember they have to beat HIS CMD to break free, and monks have great CMD!
The other, is that monks now get to bypass DR/Silver or Cold Iron at 7th level, making the Singham or Kama unnecessary above that level. An agile property on an amulet of mighty fists costs 4,000gp now, so it's affordable at around the same level or earlier that the maneuvers start to fade out in effectiveness.
A third point is that Icandu is a trapspringer, he's there to play the party scout role so that he stays an active party member even when his combat performance is lacklustre. With a Perception of +21 and Disable Device of +32 he's pretty good at this.
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Icandu doesn't look like he worked well at low levels. Greater grapple is probably the most important greater maneuver feat and he lived without it until level 9. He has two feats sunk into using dex, but this means he had poor damage until he got his agile AMF. It also means that when he needs to bring his kama or siangham out to bypass DR his damage will be terrible.
I don't think I believe in the dex monk. Unless your monk emerged fully grown from Zeus's head it's going to be painful. And the payoff just won't be worth it.
What would you do instead?
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The other, is that monks now get to bypass DR/Silver or Cold Iron at 7th level, making the Singham or Kama unnecessary above that level. An agile property on an amulet of mighty fists costs 4,000gp now, so it's affordable at around the same level or earlier that the maneuvers start to fade out in effectiveness.
You can have 4k at level 4 and if maneuvers fade out then why get them?? My ranger just got his +2 belt at 4 :D.
Actually there are several feats that help the base damage type by allowing you to change what type of damage your fist do.
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Grappled is a nice condition against opponents with no weapons they can use in a grapple. It's lousy against things that can full attack you back. Pinned is a good condition against anything, but your enemy gets a free shot at you and you take three rounds to tie him up before you can move on to other targets.
Monks do not bypass DR/slashing or DR/piercing. Nor are they guaranteed to meet no hostile fey before that level.
I'm not sure how being a trapspringer redeems him. I wouldn't excuse lackluster combat in a face being suggested to a new player so why a trapspringer?
And you're still reliant on an enhancement that's popular among munchkins, but that Paizo did not consider balanced enough to republish in Ultimate Equipment. That's fine for a theoretical forum build, but not so great when suggesting builds to a new player.
I can agree with most of that, I came to many of the same conclusions. I just wish monk was more appealing. The vision I had in my mind is not what I have found. I want to be Bruce Lee damit! :(
Actually there are several feats that help the base damage type by allowing you to change what type of damage your fist do.Such as?
Boar Style and Tiger Style make them Slashing and Snake Style makes them Piercing (all three have other bonuses too, though Tiger's is decidedly underwhelming). Damage type can be changed as a Free action.