We're all MAD here! A custom class project


Homebrew and House Rules


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This is just a preliminary hashing out of ideas to see if there's any interest in such a system. The premise is to allow a high degree of customisability of characters while also maintaining ability parity between them and ensure nobody is above and beyond the rest.

It works as follows:

We're all MAD here!

The MAD classes presented here are constructed from three paths of power, each based on a different ability score. The paths chosen determine the powers of the character; their sources and themes are very much up to the player to decide.

Each path grants the following:

1. A BAB rank.

When you have selected three paths, add up the BAB ranks. If the result is 1 or less, your MAD class has 1/2 BAB. If the result is 2, your MAD class has 3/4 BAB. If the result is 3 or more, your MAD class has full BAB.

2. A good save.

If two or more of your paths grant the same good save, they do not stack.

3. A number of skill ranks.

Add up the number of skill ranks each path gives you. The total is your class' skill ranks per level (plus Int modifier).

4. A progression of powers.

Choose one of the paths to be your primary path, another to be your secondary path and a third to be your tertiary path. This determines how many powers you gain from each path and at which levels you gain powers. No two of your paths may be based on the same ability score.

Primary Path: Gain a power at levels 1, 2, 5, 8, 11, 14, 17 and 20*.

Secondary Path: Gain a power at levels 1, 4, 7, 10, 13, 16 and 19.

Tertiary Path: Gain a power at levels 3, 6, 9, 12, 15 and 18.

*Your primary path determines your level 20 capstone.

In total, you gain 8 powers from your primary path, 7 powers from your secondary path and 6 powers from your tertiary path.

Paths of Power

This is not a comprehensive list, but rather a few ideas of mine. Add your own ideas if you like!

Paths of Strength


  • Berserker - Fueled by rage and ancestral might!
  • Brawler - An unarmed combatant specialising in punches, grapples and throws.
  • Weaponmaster - Awesome prowess with all manner of weapons, including amazing martial maneuvers.

Paths of Dexterity

  • Acrobat - Supremely evasive and mobile.
  • Bomber - Explosions!
  • Duelist - A clever combatant able to duel the most powerful foes.

Paths of Constitution

  • Armiger - A warrior skilled with armour and shield, guarding allies from attacks.
  • Dragonheart - An inner energy grants draconic powers.
  • Ironhide - A hardened body of iron weathers many blows.

Paths of Intelligence

  • Elementalist - A master of fire, ice and storm, calling down destruction from the heavens.
  • Summoner - One who calls things from beyond for aid and advice.
  • Tactician - A keen warrior, supporting and guiding allies to expert effect.

Paths of Wisdom

  • Druid - A servant of nature, at one with the wilds and beasts.
  • Priest - A favoured servant of the gods, blessed with boons of healing and spellcraft.
  • Monk - A martial artist whose inner clarity provides great power.

Paths of Charisma

  • Mesmerist - A beguiler and illusionist, confounding and confusing foes.
  • Scoundrel - A trickster capable of disarming foes with both sword and smile.
  • Templar - A divine champion, calling on the power of righteousness.

For example, if we wanted to build a paladin, we would pick Weaponmaster (Str), Armiger (Con) and Templar (Cha).

A bard might be Duelist (Dex), Tactician (Int), Scoundrel (Cha).

It's harder to make a conventional wizard, but maybe that's fine!


I don't get it... It seems cool, and like you put some serious thought and work into it, but I don't get the progression.

What does a dragon heart, weapon master, scoundrel get you?


Very cool. I had considered a template system once myself, though it never really went anywhere, have you got any crunch for this or is it just at the formative stages?


Byrdology wrote:

I don't get it... It seems cool, and like you put some serious thought and work into it, but I don't get the progression.

What does a dragon heart, weapon master, scoundrel get you?

Quite a variety! I haven't planned out powers specifically, but let's see...

In order of primary, secondary, tertiary:

Dragon Heart, Weapon Master, Scoundrel
A draconic master of arms that can fall back on hidden trickery and deception to gain advantage in combat.

Weapon Master, Scoundrel, Dragon Heart
A supreme swordsman that has quite a few dirty tricks, who is slowly awakening a draconic power in himself.

Scoundrel, Dragon Heart, Weapon Master
A trickster and charlatan empowered by a draconic ancestry, whose deceptions are backed up by martial skill where they might otherwise fail.


Trogdar wrote:

Very cool. I had considered a template system once myself, though it never really went anywhere, have you got any crunch for this or is it just at the formative stages?

Nothing of substance yet. It's just in the initial ideas stage. Some paths might allow multiple choices within them, such as elementalist allowing choices between conventional magical blasting and such powers as magus-like weapon empowerment.

Feel free to suggest more paths if you like!

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Umbral Reaver wrote:
Trogdar wrote:

Very cool. I had considered a template system once myself, though it never really went anywhere, have you got any crunch for this or is it just at the formative stages?

Nothing of substance yet. It's just in the initial ideas stage. Some paths might allow multiple choices within them, such as elementalist allowing choices between conventional magical blasting and such powers as magus-like weapon empowerment.

Feel free to suggest more paths if you like!

I would recommend against adding too wide a variety under each option, since players are already choosing three paths keeping them simple will go a long way to preventing choice paralysis and aid in ease of understanding.

As far as I can tell each path needs 8 abilities, and number 6 & 7 need to be cool enough on their own because they might be secondary or tertiary abilities.

Taking your Elementalist I would keep blasty spellcaster on one path, and Blade-Charger (or whatever you call it on a separate path). That's in order to keep paths simple and cut down on submenus all the way down.


That's a good point.

And yes, the progression of abilities as such was deliberate. You get the best power for your primary, the second best of your secondary and the third best of your tertiary. Third best is still the sixth power in the list, so it should be pretty good (around 6th-7th level spell equivalent).


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Byrdology wrote:

I don't get it... It seems cool, and like you put some serious thought and work into it, but I don't get the progression.

What does a dragon heart, weapon master, scoundrel get you?

Quite a variety! I haven't planned out powers specifically, but let's see...

In order of primary, secondary, tertiary:

Dragon Heart, Weapon Master, Scoundrel
A draconic master of arms that can fall back on hidden trickery and deception to gain advantage in combat.

Weapon Master, Scoundrel, Dragon Heart
A supreme swordsman that has quite a few dirty tricks, who is slowly awakening a draconic power in himself.

Scoundrel, Dragon Heart, Weapon Master
A trickster and charlatan empowered by a draconic ancestry, whose deceptions are backed up by martial skill where they might otherwise fail.

Kinda seems like an arcane duelist bard with draconic bloodline. Or a cad/sorc/ dragon disciple, by the way you word it.


Yeah, something like that!

Some more path ideas:

Jotunblud (Str) - A descendant of giants or powerful beings, growing larger over time.

Striker (Dex) - A precise combatant with expertise in ranged weapons.

Guardian (Con) - A mystic art that expands the user's health and bolsters the defense of others.

Savage (Con) - A rugged survivalist that depends on the powers of the wilds for sustenance and prowess.

Sage (Int) - Arcane loremaster and diviner.

Spellstriker (Int) - Delivers devastating magic through martial combat.

Necromancer (Cha) - This is placed in Charisma so it can combo with either priest or sage for either style of arcane or divine undead master, plus suits liches as Cha is a key stat for undead.


It sounds good. I think that you'll have to build a prototype power tree if you want to put peoples ideas into the right context. Would it be safe to assume a weapon master progression would have something similar to a fighters weapon training? I would imagine that you would have something a little more interesting in the later brackets.


Yeah, something like that.

Let's give this a go. Please excuse the total lack of editing or any consideration for balance. This is just an example idea.

Path of Strength: Weaponmaster

BAB Rank +1
Good Save Fortitude
Skills per Level +1

Weapon and Armour Proficiency All simple and martial weapons, light and medium armour, all shields except for tower shields.

1st Power: Man at Arms Choose a weapon group (see fighter's weapon training). You gain Weapon Focus with all weapons in that group. At 4th level, you gain Weapon Specialisation with all weapons in that group. At 8th level, you gain Greater Weapon Focus with all weapons in that group. At 12th level you gain Greater Weapon Specialisation with all weapons in that group.

2nd Power: Thundering Smite Once per day, when you hit with a weapon, you may strike a deafening blow. The creature hit must make a Fortitude save (DC = 10 + 1/2 your level + your Str modifier) or be deafened for 1 minute per level and stunned for 1 round. If it succeeds the save, it is deafened for 1 round and not stunned. You may use thundering smite an additional time per day at 7th, 12th and 17th level.

3rd Power: Beat Back Once per round, when you hit a creature with a weapon, you may make a free bull rush attempt with that weapon using all the bonuses to the combat maneuver roll that applied to your normal attack roll with the weapon. If you succeed, you may follow the creature any distance that you pushed it.

4th Power:

5th Power:

6th Power:

7th Power:

8th Power: Master of War All your feats that apply to a specific weapon or group of weapons instead apply to all weapons you have proficiency in.

Eh, I'm really tired. You get the idea, right?


sort of... I'll think about it when I get up.


Dot.


So, each path should be highly focused on needing the key ability score, either for save DCs, uses per day or as modifiers to stuff.

The path abilities should stand alone reasonably well without being too exclusionary. You don't want someone to end up with two paths that can only be used when not using the other.

And the abilities should scale nicely and not become useless at later levels. If the elementalist's first power is 'Elemental Blast', that should be a key part of the character that is built on as he or she gains more powers along that path.

The 'casty' paths may end up with narrow spell lists to draw from. Perhaps the mesmerist acts like a sorcerer but can only choose enchantment or illusion spells, and the summoner can only choose conjuration, on top of whatever abilities the path already grants.

The overall potency of a path should probably be about half that of an actual class. Altogether, a three-path class may end up with more options than a conventional class, but because they must be spread amongst different ability scores, they may not be as focused and powerful.

I should go to bed.


How exactly are we supposed to scale DC's? If you use the standard, then you may have one DC that is reasonably good and two others that will be equivalent to stunning fist(low success rate). Is this intended?


Azaelas Fayth wrote:
Dot.


Trogdar wrote:
How exactly are we supposed to scale DC's? If you use the standard, then you may have one DC that is reasonably good and two others that will be equivalent to stunning fist(low success rate). Is this intended?

The idea I had was that these abilities would be like your higher level spells (primary path), mid-level spells (secondary path) and low level spells (tertiary path) in terms of DC, but maybe that doesn't work out so well in practical terms.


I'd suggest checking out Kirtfinder. It does a lot of what your design goals seem to be aiming for.


Umbral Reaver wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
How exactly are we supposed to scale DC's? If you use the standard, then you may have one DC that is reasonably good and two others that will be equivalent to stunning fist(low success rate). Is this intended?
The idea I had was that these abilities would be like your higher level spells (primary path), mid-level spells (secondary path) and low level spells (tertiary path) in terms of DC, but maybe that doesn't work out so well in practical terms.

I think Its doable, but you would have to adjust statistical progression slightly, something along the lines of +5/+3/+2 from character levels or something. Either that or there would be a fair amount of DC adjustment to do, mostly due to how high some saves get on monsters.

You could do things that leverage your stat modifiers rather than add DC's from power paths and then have a static DC progression, 10+caster level as opposed to 10+1/2 caster+ modifier. That would really open up your options.


An example of leverage would be...

Hmm, an int based power path that grants Int modifiers as precision damage when flanking or against a flatfooted opponent. this bonus does not function against enemies with no discernible anatomy, or monsters that are immune to crits.


I think this is really cool and the kind of houserules that I like. Basically, you get three mini-classes instead of one class.

So I'll bite, with an acid/ooze/whatever path of power.

LUCKILY YUCKY
Whether you had an ooze of an aunt, a magical mishap or some other obscure reason, you thrive where most throw up.

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Save: Fortitude.
Skills: +2

Weapons and armor: Proficient with simple weapons.

1st power: Tough Digestion (Ex): You can eat almost anything, and survive on most organic materials. In addition, you may add your constitution an additional time to all saving throws against poisons and diseases, and on Survival skill checks.
2nd power: Slimy Skin (Ex): Your skin is covered in sickening slime. Anyone who touches you, including hitting you with a natural attack, has to make a saving throw (DC 10+1/2 level + Con) or be sickened for one round. In addition you gain acid resistance equal to your level.
3rd power: Tumor Familiar (Su): You gain a tumor familiar, as the alchemist discovery.
4th power: Spew (Sp): You can spray your targets in acidic fluid. This ability hits everyone in a 30 ft. cone from you. It deals 1d6 acid damage/level, causes everyone hit to gain the sickened condition for 1 round and if you have any diseases they risk catching those too. A successful fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 level + Con) halves the damage and negates the sickened condition.
5th power: Nonsolid Anatomy: Your whole body has begun to take on an amorphous, goey form. You can squeeze through areas as if one size smaller than you are, gain a +10 bonus to escape grapples, ropes etc, and opponents take a -4 penalty on attempts to confirm criticals against you. You gain DR X/-, where X is your constitution. This damage reduction only works against nonlethal damage.
6th power: Ageless: Your body stops aging. You take no physical penalties for aging, but you die of old age as normal.
7th power: Insane Metabolism: You eat at least five times the normal amount for someone your size. You gain fast healing equal to half your constitution bonus. You are also immune to the effects of poison and disease, though you can still be a carrier of disease.
8th power: Survival of the fittest: If there is something you know, it's surviving in even the harshest situations. Your fast healing is replaced by regeneration of the same amount. Starvation and age can still kill you, and casting Wish will supress the regeneration for one round unless you succeed at a fortitude save.


So, what would a Monk, Ironhide, Elementalist get you?


RipfangOmen wrote:
So, what would a Monk, Ironhide, Elementalist get you?

I think part of the point is that you can make up flavor yourself. Monk is hard to define as I assume it's not about the monk class as it is now, but my first spontaneous thought would be to build a massive half-earth elemental Hulk that beats people to pulp. Ben Grimm?


I think the best way to make this work is to make DC thresholds scale at 10+ Character level and then make ability scores effect the number of times an effect can be used. That way, a primary ability power will see more use, but will not make the other powers obsolete because you are unable to increase the save DC. This would function just as well for spell casting.


Trogdar wrote:
I think the best way to make this work is to make DC thresholds scale at 10+ Character level and then make ability scores effect the number of times an effect can be used. That way, a primary ability power will see more use, but will not make the other powers obsolete because you are unable to increase the save DC. This would function just as well for spell casting.

I think part of the point is forcing everyone to be MAD. Having to split the DC-boosting stats across three different scores makes sense next to having to split the save-boosting stats across three.

When you only have one stat to max, you tend to out-DC the enemy's saves - as we see with primary casters already.


Ilja wrote:
Trogdar wrote:
I think the best way to make this work is to make DC thresholds scale at 10+ Character level and then make ability scores effect the number of times an effect can be used. That way, a primary ability power will see more use, but will not make the other powers obsolete because you are unable to increase the save DC. This would function just as well for spell casting.

I think part of the point is forcing everyone to be MAD. Having to split the DC-boosting stats across three different scores makes sense next to having to split the save-boosting stats across three.

When you only have one stat to max, you tend to out-DC the enemy's saves - as we see with primary casters already.

For sure, I understand the intent, but the issue is that save DC thresholds are actually worse when they function off of an ability score. A predictable save threshold is a good thing. It takes care of the extreme outliers. You just have to keep it in mind when you develop things like saving throw buffs.


Have you considered possibility of taking the same path twice (or even three times) for a focused character? Sometimes after taking two paths there could be no third path matching the concept.


Drejk wrote:
Have you considered possibility of taking the same path twice (or even three times) for a focused character? Sometimes after taking two paths there could be no third path matching the concept.

The issue with this is that it would be much harder to design balanced powers. A 1st level power that gives +2 to strength isn't an issue, but if you've gotten it three times by level 4 there might be issues. And similar.

I think it's better in that case to make a sufficient number of generic abilities that you could always find something to fit your concept, especially since flavor isn't written in stone with this.


I think Drejk means to take two different paths based on the same ability score.

There's nothing about the system that would prohibit this aside from the initial idea that you don't do this. We could abandon the 'MAD' plan altogether and just make a number of combinable mini-classes.


I dunno, I kind of like the pick three stats. I love the possibilities for different combinations.

Armiger, Acrobat, and Mesmerist seems like it would be a fun combo.


Any more on this?


Nope. I suffer from chronic fatigue and depression so it's hard to actually work on things beyond simply suggesting ideas.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I might put together some fun mini-classes. I quite like the Luckily Yucky.


Oh, sorry to hear that, Reaver. I'm not so good at this sorta thing either, but I hope someone keeps me posted.


this looks awesome.... do you have all the path powers listed somewhere or are you working on that? have you considered submitting this to the think-tanks of pathfinder?


I don't have powers listed for any of them. If anyone wants to grab some and write them up, that's fine by me. Working together, we can fine-tune them, I guess.


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What about:

BRAWLER
Throwing punches like a boss

Base Attack Bonus: +1
Save: Fortitude.
Skills: +1

Weapons and armor: Gains no special proficiencies.

1st power: Unarmed Strike (Ex): Brawlers gain the Improved Unarmed Strike feat for free. In addition, you gain the two-weapon fighting feat, usable only with unarmed attacks. It still counts towards meeting prerequisites.
2nd power: Fists of Iron (Ex): Your unarmed attacks deal far more damage than for most. You gain a damage bonus equal to 1/3 your level (minimum 1) on unarmed attacks and attacks with gauntlets and similar weapons. Also, you may treat your fists as both manufactured and natural weapons for the purposes of spells and abilities, and they may be enchanted as if they where weapons.
3rd power: Penetrating Strike: When performing unarmed attacks, you may ignore an amount of damage reduction equal to your strength bonus.
4th power: Defensive Posture: You're used to getting slammed around in different ways. You may substitute your dexterity bonus to CMD for your strength bonus (adding strength bonus twice). You also gain DR X/- where X is equal to your strength bonus. This only applies against nonlethal damage.
5th power: Greater Strike: Select and gain one of the following feats as a bonus feat. You do not need to meet the prerequisites. For purposes of determining uses per day treat your levels as monk levels, and any DCs are equal to 10 + 1/2 level + Str modifier. List of bonus feats: Bleeding Attack, Elemental Fist, Hamatulatsu, Perfect Strike, Punishing Kick, Stunning Fist, Vicious Stomp.
6th power: Trick Fighting (Ex): Choose one combat maneuver. If you hit with at least two unarmed attacks against the same opponent during a single full attack, you gain a free combat maneuver attempt of that type. All other restrictions and penalties such as attacks of opportunity still applies.
7th power: Fists of Adamantium: Your unarmed strikes are treated as adamantium for the purpose of bypassing damage reduction and hardness. In addition, you may add your strength modifier twice to strength checks.
8th power: Unsinkable: You are a nearly unstoppable engine of fistslinging. You gain immunity to nonlethal damage. Whenever you would take ability damage or ability drain, reduce the amount taken by half your strength modifier. You take no penalty from being fatigued and when you are exhausted, you instead take penalties as if fatigued. You gain resistance to all energy damage by an amount equal to your strength bonus.


neat idea, dotted


I had another idea to deal with some things like save redundancy.

This includes the re-introduction of the medium save progression.

Each class grants +1 rank to one or two different saves.

Total up your ranks in each save.

0 or less = poor save.
1 = medium save.
2 or more = good save.

Medium save progression:

1: +1
2: +1
3: +2
4: +2
5: +3
6: +3
7: +3
8: +4
9: +4
10: +5
11: +5
12: +5
13: +6
14: +6
15: +7
16: +7
17: +7
18: +8
19: +8
20: +9


For saves, another option is to make it 1/2 level for everyone, and then classes add +0 to +3 as just simple bonuses.


forgive me I'm new what does "dot" mean?


I refuse to let this die. *gives CPR* Breathe you accursed thread, breaaaaathe!


I've got a pulse! Weak...thready. Cortical stimulaters!

This looks so cool. I only just now saw it. Smaller, more focused spell lists for casters is ideal, if you ask me. And the save option presented by Ilja should be the standard, not a houserule. At least, something along those lines. By 20th, the difference between your best saves and worst saves is typically massive.

I've already got stuff on my plate, but if I can work something out, I'll post it.


Sweet! Dude, I'll be waiting and hope this gets some juices flowing!


Double post, but eh. That Brawler write up looks great, by the way!

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