Everbloom Monk (Monk)


Round 2: Design an archetype

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9 aka Matt Duval

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Everbloom Monk (Monk)
The everbloom monk finds her strength in her faith, honing her mind and body to be a vessel for Milani’s liberating power. She provides courage and hope for any who wish to live free from tyranny.
Alignment: chaotic good, chaotic neutral, neutral good
Class Skills: The everbloom monk gains Diplomacy and Heal as class skills and does not gain Intimidate as a class skill.
Ring the Temple Bell (Su): At 2nd level, the everbloom monk can restore a creature to its right mind with a resounding strike. She can use this attack once per day, and additional times per day by expending uses of stunning fist. She must announce her intent before making her attack roll. If she strikes successfully, the attack deals no damage. Instead, it removes the dazed and shaken conditions. At 5th level and higher it removes additional effects.
At 5th level it removes the cowering and frightened conditions.
At 8th level it removes the fascinated and panicked conditions.
At 11th level it removes the confused, paralyzed, and stunned conditions.
At 14th level it makes a targeted dispel against enchantment spells and abilities affecting the creature, using the monk’s level as her caster level.
This ability replaces the bonus feat gained at 2nd level and quivering palm.
Tongue of the Flowing River (Ex): At 3rd level, the everbloom monk gains a +2 bonus to Diplomacy skill checks and may influence anyone who can hear her. She may choose to be heard regardless of ambient noise and silence effects when making these checks. This ability replaces still mind.
Ki Pool (Su): The everbloom monk channels Milani's power, rather than her own energies. She uses her Charisma modifier in place of her Wisdom modifier to determine the size of her ki pool.
At 10th level, ki strike allows her unarmed attacks to be treated as chaotic weapons, if she is chaotic aligned, and good weapons, if she is good aligned, for the purpose of overcoming damage reduction. This ability replaces ki pool (lawful).
The everbloom monk gains all other ki pool abilities as normal.
Sworn to the Everbloom (Su): At 13th level, an everbloom monk is immune to charm and compulsion spells and abilities, as long as she has a ki point available in her ki pool. This ability replaces diamond soul.
True Freedom (Ex): At 20th level, the everbloom monk is immune to spells and effects that restrict movement, including binding, entangle, grappling, imprisonment, maze, paralysis, petrification, pinning, sleep, slow, stunning, temporal stasis, and web, and can travel freely through any spell or effect that blocks movement. She still suffers any damage or other effects for doing so. This ability replaces perfect self.

The Exchange Contributor; Publisher, Kobold Press; RPG Superstar Judge

Congrats on hitting the Top 32, Matthew! This is one of the 3 monk archetypes, and I'm rather fond of the monk class so let's take a look.

Judging on flavor and theme, I gotta say that Ring the Temple Bell is one of my favorite archetype ideas in a long while. Removing conditions via a thwack to the head is just so very kung-fu movie: "Grasshopper, pull yourself together!" Whap!

Is it balanced? Probably: you are giving up an attack to remove a condition or enchantment, and it costs you quivering palm and a bonus feat as well.

The shift to Charisma-based ki pool I leave to Sean for deeper understanding. Seems ok on first blush.

The true freedom at 20th level seems powerful but then it's a capstone ability.

Nice work on this archetype!

Designer, RPG Superstar Judge

As the "gods guy" of Paizo, choosing Milani got my attention (especially as I wrote her article only a few months ago). A Milani archetype is an interesting choice because overall she's not common in the River Kingdoms except in Artume and Liberthane, both of which are on the small side.

Alignment: Whoah. That's pretty bold. I'm still kind of boggling at it because you're keeping the ki and other stuff that's thematically based on a monk who has mastered self-discipline. It really should say "An everbloom monk must be X, Y, or Z" (which is how the martial artist archetype does it in Ultimate Combat) but I see that you were running up against the word count.

Ring the Temple Bell: I'm picturing this as the monk running around slapping frightened peasants upside the head in order to get them to settle down and deal with some invaders. I suppose you're only giving up a bonus feat and quivering palm, but QP is a very juicy ability to give up (even though most campaigns don't get that high).

Tongue of the Flowing River: This probably should be (Su) if it can overcome silence effects. I think we need a clarification on "and may influence anyone who can hear her. Is that just for Diplomacy? Does the silence-bypassing mean a monk/bard could use audible bardic performance in a silence area?

Ki Pool: Interesting Wis-->Cha swap. Thematically appropriate.

Sworn to the Everbloom: This is a thematically appropriate power with a cool name, but I'm not sure a player would want to give up SR to get immunity to charms/compulsions, as a monk already has a +2 from still mind and Will is a good saving throw.

True Freedom: Makes sense.

I think the biggest appeal to this is being able to play a chaotic "monk" who still gets magical monk abilities. I'm not sure it's a good idea to strip that alignment requirement from the class and leave so much in place, but it was a bold choice to do so. Does the archetype fit the River Kingdoms? Sort of. Is it something players would want to play? Some will, I'm sure.

I DO recommend this archetype for advancement.

Founder, Legendary Games & Publisher, Necromancer Games, RPG Superstar Judge

Initial impression: Wow, bold. Chaotic monk, to me, is PERFECT for the River Kingdoms, with the tie of freedom to chaos. Does this have some mechanical issues? Yes. But if I was your developer, I wouldn't say "nope, sorry," I would say "awesome idea! Here are a few suggestions!" And I would be totally stoked about it. I don't expect perfection in round 2 of Superstar, but I expect big creative ideas and you gave me that. I'm with Wolf about the Cha swap being cool and Ring the Temple Bell as being a great ability. Well done.

Very Strong recommendation.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7

A monk of Milani is exactly what my submission for Round 2 would have been. As such I've taken a very close look at this one. I agree with the judges that chaos&ki is something that should not have happened, but am willing to run with it.

I like the emphatic use of Charisma - but at the same time this enforces a ridiculous degree of MAD-ness onto the class (Str + Dex + Con + Wis + Cha are all necessary, and dumping Int too far is not really viable either). At best I'd consider this a first draft - not something that could be considered playable.

There are quite a bit of design issues that leave the class unclear; Tongue of the Flowing River could potentially do some really crazy things. True Freedom could probably benefit from phrasing things as "constant freedom of movement as well as immunity to ..." which would probably have given some slack with the word count.

The best ability - for me - is Ring the Temple Bell; which I think is a too-good-to-be-true deal, for a feat and Quivering Palm? Yes please.

Overall I think this would've benefited by another week (or month) of design time.


Interesting, interesting. I think that I'd rather see Ring The Temple Bell replace Stunning Fist completely instead of having a bit clunky use one day plus one additional day per Stunning Fist use

Alignment: I have no problem with that - personally I think that requiring monks to be lawful in the first place was grave error by the game designers who weren't sure what they want to represent by that alignment - internal discipline in my eyes is independent of law versus chaos axis.

The main problem I have is explaining using Charisma for ki comes from channeling the power of deity. Ki in my opinion is internal power and making it channeled from a deity is contradiction.

Also, I think it should use the same ability score to determine ki, AC bonus and any saving throw DCs.

Strong keep despite those two flaws.

Contributor

First off, congratulations for making it to Round 2! Second, holy COW! That's ballsy of you to alter the Monk's alignment like this while keeping the ki abilities. Honestly, I think that's a mistake that the design team made with the Monk Brawler archetype back in Ultimate Combat, so I'm happy to see that you were willing to take this risk.

I like the idea of Resounding Strike, but it seems like a clunky mechanic to keep it tied to Stunning Fist. I wonder if the fear was that it wouldn't be desirable if it was a Stunning Fist-less monk, but honestly I think the Quivering Palm removal was downright silly. Its a case of, "I'll pay Tuesday for a hamburger today," and I don't think that's a strong design philosophy. Trading Stunning Fist would have made more sense since that ability improves at a similar pace to Quivering Palm.

Silence should be italicized, and overall I'm not very impressed by Tongue of the Flowering Road because if it is referencing other rules (aka ambient sounds and the like) they are not immediately popping up into my mind; it doesn't seem like a very useful ability all around.

I will say that tying this archetype's ki to the god was a brilliant move on your party, but it would be nice to have seen additional references to the deity's power in this archetype. Maybe trading a bonus feat for a 1st level Cleric Domain power or the like? As far as I know, the Paizo boys have never done a holy monk archetype in the core line, so that would have been nifty.

True Freedom is nifty, but I feel like you used a lot of words and referenced a lot of spells when you could have pretty easily summarized it as follows:

"At 20th level, the everbloom monk is immune to the entangled, grappled, paralyzed, petrified, and stunned conditions as well as any other effect that impedes his movement, including slow and temporal stasis ..."

I don't get why maze and slow are on this list at all, honestly. Neither of those effects impede your ability to move; one puts you to sleep and the other banishes you to a demiplane.

I honestly like this archetype, but I feel as though it could use polish. I don't know if I like this archetype enough to play it, but I can see a few of my friends getting excited to pick this one up.

Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Nice one! Creative AND risky! I can see the problems people have with ki, deities and alignment, but I can see a logic to it.
Ki linked to Charisma actually really really works for me - presence and carriage as a form of self discipline. Whether internally focused or bolstered externally via devotion to a deity - the lack of explanation leaves me refreshed rather than hemmed in...

Nice work Matthew.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8

Sean K Reynolds wrote:


Sworn to the Everbloom: This is a thematically appropriate power with a cool name, but I'm not sure a player would want to give up SR to get immunity to charms/compulsions, as a monk already has a +2 from still mind and Will is a good saving throw.

SR is a double edge sword, I as a player prefer the inmunity, Also Note that the everbloom monk do not get still Mind.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8

I have a big concern with this archetype. It is extremely MAD.

streng for damage, dexterity to not get hitted, con to not die fast, wisdom cause I really need AC, charisma cause loosing ki point hurts a lot.

I think this make this archetpe really weak.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Locke1520

This is definitely a first draft sort of archetype. I think with time and attention to some of the not inconsiderable issues outlined above this could be a cool archetype but unfortunately I don't think I will be votin for this one. Congratulations on making the top 32 and good luck this round. I really liked your seer's soap but speaking from experience round three critiques are exponentially more intense, you'll have to work very hard to avoid the first draft trap. Again good luck.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 8 aka nate lange

template used well- fairly well written though at times it reads almost like you were up against a word count ;)

for the most part i think you did a good job maintaining balance. i agree with some of the earlier posts about it feeling awkward the way ring the temple bell interacts with stunning fist (and that it may have made more sense to have it replace that), but it still feels pretty balanced. the one big problem is that tongue of the flowing river, as written, really needs clarification... does it only apply to diplomacy checks? if not what else does it affect? "anyone who can hear" removes the shared language requirement for diplomacy, and anything else affected... does that mean a multiclass sorcerer/everbloom monk could use language dependent spells against someone without a shared language, while in a silence spell? that's a corner case, and i'm inclined to sort of dismiss it as something that would have been better with a higher word count, but that is a clear issue.

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

My plan is to comment on all 32 archetypes. We'll see if I make it!

I will give general impressions, but with 3 areas of particular focus that suit my personal interests. Archetype and feat names: do they show flare? How closely tied to the River Kingdom is the archetype? And last but certainly not least, do I want to play this archetype?

Archetype and feat names: Well done, Evocative names. Ring the Temple Bell is particularly amusing.

River Kingdom tie: Strong. There is a strong essence of freedom tied into this monk. Concerns have been expressed about the chaos aspects of alignment, which I get, but I also think a chaotic monk only works in an environment like RK. The RK setting almost requires this change in my mind. This seems like a strong tie to the spirit of the place.

Desire to play: This one is tough. The intent of the class would be a blast to play, but I'm not sure the execution is there in this draft. Others have pointed out a number of potential flaws as it exists, the most serious of which play-wise seems to be MAD-ness. But while there are issues to be resolved, I'd enjoy playing the class to the extent that it does work.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka GM_Solspiral

Good: designing for monks, they need the love. Ringing the Temple bell is an awesome-sauce ability! Names mechanics and theme all come together for me.
Bad: Pet peeve for me, do not like adding a divine element to a monk's power. I have always considered their supernaturals more psionic than anything.
Ugly: in general I'm against monks having alignment restrictions, you are both bucking that and reinforcing that with this archetype.
Overall: This is a contender for my vote, depends on the other entries but I'd say nice work!


You actually got a developer accepting a Chaotic Monk...

...you are made of win for doing that and choosing Milani, my good man.

Scarab Sages Dedicated Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7

I am really happy to see that I need to chose and re-chose this year to bring my list of 'ooohhh - looking good' entries down to those eight I can actually vote for, so I want to say: thanks to all competitors for providing a good chunk of fun looking archetypes.

Since I am a bit short on time this month, I will only comment on the Items I voted for.

Interesting archetype, this one is... A chaotic monk with his abilities tied to personal freedom - I am surprised how good this looks on paper (or rather on screen). I have never been a fan of the monk class (not that I have a problem with the class, I just haven't used it that often and neither have my players), so it is hard for me to evaluate the mechanical aspects - it looks fun and balanced, though.

Good luck with the rest of the rest of the contest.


Almost like a drill sergeant monk -- I like.

Giving up the SR is fine to me as absolute immunity is better and SR is a pain in the butt when you want to be buffed. Some of those conditions that the monk can swat away are hard to get rid of normally so I'm down with that too I'm a bit less happy with the freedom of movement and charisma based Ki change... but it isn't something I don't understand and I can go with it.

Star Voter Season 6

I'm with Drejk on the utilization of CHA instead of WIS for all associated special abilities (AC Bones, ki). I also don't have a problem with [i]ki[/] being channeled through CHA since the favored soul does something similar (though I never understood why there was still a WIS requirement for spell DCs).

Diamond soul is not something I'd ever give up if I played a monk that high.


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The MAD. MAD! It's MAD I say!
Yeah, Charisma is a nice touch but who's going to roll well enough for all the stats?
Replace Ring the Temple Bell with Stunning Fist, 6th level bonus feat instead of 2nd and Quivering Palm and it's a winner. (Changing it to the 6th gives more of a progression feel, as it's own power progresses).
Think of a way to get rid of the MAD (That's Multiple Ability Dependency for those who don't know, too many stats need to be high) and you've got a winner.
You still get my vote.

Liberty's Edge Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8

Monk Love. I dig it, great idea to springboard off of.

Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9

I really like this monk, even just coming off the six freedoms monk. It's thematic, interesting, and bold.

Of course, ring the temple bell is a bit of a let down, give up attacks in exchange for what is basically a paladin's mercy. And in exchange, you give up a single bonus feat (from a limited list) and a power that you wouldn't get until after this power's maxed out with the ability to punch out targeted dispel magics. Considering the number of stunning fists you could have by this point, that's really good.

which puts me in a dilemma. That's one big misstep, I think. But the rest is not just solid, but pretty good.

Good luck in this round!

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka theheadkase

I'm going to preface ALL my monk reviews with this: I am a zealous monk lover. I am going to try to step away from that as I review the monk archetypes.

Wow. Just...Wow. A chaotic monk. You have my vote at just that!

But there are a few gripes. Switching to Cha is thematically appropriate, but other things still depend upon Wis, and without switching those things...this makes the monk completely MAD (sorry to bring this up!).

Some of your ki pool wording is confusing.

Ring of the Temple Bell is awesome by the way. Spectacularly awesome.

I don't have much more to say. This floored me.

Heartily, I DO recommend!!


I like it! The obvious inspiration is Kung Fu, which is basically about a Shaolin monk wandering the American West with a bounty on his head for killing the Emperor's nephew (which was true); and what better stand-in for the Wild West than the River Kingdoms? As a rootless "anti-vigilante" -- using "anti-" in the "anti-hero" sense of breaking the stereotypes -- Kwai Chang Caine is as chaotic good as they come, so the alignment switch doesn't even warrant a blink from me.

However, I agree with others that it would've been more appropriate to replace Stunning Fist instead of Quivering Palm. It looks like you tried to have your cake and eat it too, so you only made a down payment for Ring the Temple Bell up front. It's not a fair trade to make a balloon payment of the balance thirteen levels later, while enjoying the benefits in the meantime.

Also, I think that the criticisms of using Cha for ki don't go far enough. Even setting aside the MADness, it just doesn't make sense to me. Clerics derive their magical power from a deity, and use what stat for it? Wisdom. Leaving it alone would've been better for character playability, system consistency, and your word count (which you could've used to find a different replacement for Quivering Palm).

That said, the powers and flavor are appropriate for the Milani theme, while also playing off of a character trope that is deeply rooted in the American consciousness, yet hard to pull off in the current rules. (The martial artist in UC is more of a Chuck Norris archetype, while this one hits the right notes of peacefulness, helpfulness and slipperiness for David Carradine.) I think that this archetype should be fixed and published. Recommended.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka JoelF847

I like the archetype overall, but agree that there's issues. If you're going to switch Ki pool to use Cha, then you should replace Wis throughout the class with Cha, which would burn up a a lot of word count, but is needed to not increase the MAD aspect of the class as others have noted. Also, alloing ki pool to count as good is a big step up from lawful since a lot more creature are succeptible to good than to lawful or chaotic - not only that but a CG monk here could get two alignment types in their ki pool, which is also a power up.

Ring the Temple Bell is great, but it scales along similar lines as stunning fist, so replacing a single bonus feat is too powerful. I'd either replace all bonus feats (which would remove a lot of choice) or replace stunning fist and all of it's extras you can inflict (which is my preferred choice).

Everything else is fine, and fits. As a general archetype, this is great with only some relatively easy development fixes. However, while it could work in the RKs, it's more of a thematic tie in than a direct one. It has some water/river imagery and freedom themes, but it could be closer tied with ability names to the river freedoms to fit better.

Gets my vote, but hesitantly since it didn't really try to tie to the RK very well.


You might have already had my vote if the only ability was Ring the Temple Bell <3. More seriously, this shows exactly the kind of creative thinking that results in an memorable, unique archetype that still fits perfectly within the design constraints.

I've limited myself to 6 votes because beyond that too many of the RK-appropriate, mechanically balanced archetypes blur in a many-way tie of blah blah blah river freedoms and oaths. Your more oblique approach rockets you above them and earns you one of those 6.

Star Voter Season 7

I agree that this feels like a first draft (which it sortof is). I really like the concept, but as a monk-fan the mechanics really make me wince. Two big things:

1) If you're going to replace Wisdom (which Monks need for many abilities) with Charisma (which monks don't need at all) for one ability, then you should replace it for all the monk's abilities.. Adding a fifth stat to the four that the monk already needed just means there's even more demand for a monk's stat points, and even more chance that your ability will just be ignored. Something like "A Everbloom monk uses his Charisma instead of Wisdom for all monk abilites which use Wisdom, as well as all style feats and feats which provide bonus abilities for a monk". That's probably far too wordy, but there's just so many Wisdom based things for monks, that replacing just a single one feels really painful.

2) I agree that Ring the Temple Bell should have just replaced Stunning Fist (as many other monk archetypes do). Adding a bonus ability which scales the same way as Stunning Fist, and can use Stunning Fist uses (which others don't), but doesn't replace it just feels odd to me. If you wanted to avoid the power-down that a monk would get by replacing Stunning Fist with a restorative ability, then you could have replaced both the first level feat and Stunning Fist with a "as Stunning Fist, plus can alternatively remove these conditions" kind of thing.

As one of the two archetypes I've liked so far (out of the very few I've read), you'll get my vote, but I'd suggest keeping the larger picture in mind - How does changing this X affect other Y's? Does my X look almost like a Z, but isn't one, and if so, can I make it a Z so that it's easier to understand?

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9 aka Matt Duval

We can talk now? Huzzah!

Thank you very much everyone for the feedback. I'm very glad so many people liked the idea of a chaotic monk, and Ring the Temple Bell certainly provoked some strong reactions.

I thought I'd provide some notes on my design and clarification on the abilities.

Concept: I was inspired by the chapter on Artume from the Guide to the River Kingdoms. It talks about the Everbloom monastery where the priests of Milani are training as monks to help retake the kingdom from the evil regent. So right away, I was wondering what a monk devoted to Milani would be like. As a Chaotic Good deity, her clerics need to be within one step of that, so if her priests were retraining as monks, I wanted a monk that could fit that same criteria. Also, they would need an ability set that was well-geared toward rallying the people and fighting a lawful evil tyrant.

Abilities:

Alignment: restricted it to alignments within one step of CG. Would have written it that way, but I was really scrambling for word count.

Class Skills: Milani has the healing domain and I wanted these monks to be about persuasion rather than force. Intimidate is the tool of the tyrant. :)

Ring the Temple Bell: I'll admit I was pretty pleased with myself when I thought of the name. My original note for this was "Knock Sense". I didn't want to replace stunning fist though, since incapacitating foes is better for a bloodless revolution. Since Stunning Fist itself is just an amped up feat, I added in the base ability replacing a feat, then had them share uses so it wouldn't be a full additional set of effects. I also swapped out quivering palm since I felt the level 14 effect was strong enough to warrant the replacement. I would have liked to have the effect cap out at 15, but there was no way to do that and have the abilities gained be evenly distributed every few levels.

Tongue of the Flowing River: This is intended to let the monk speak to and persuade a crowd even if you try to shout her down or use silence effects. The ability should only apply to making diplomacy checks and I'm sorry the wording isn't clear there. I didn't italicize silence since I was applying it to all magic silence effects rather than that particular spell alone.

Ki Pool: I needed to swap the Ki Pool to CHA from WIS, because while cleric spellcasting is based on WIS, cleric Channel Energy is based on CHA. I wanted to justify chaotic monks by having them channel ki from Milani rather than through mental discipline. Also, since they can get two forms of alignment attack, there needed to be some compensation elsewhere. And they needed to switch the alignment effect since they can't be Lawful, and you'd want your weapons to be chaotic/good when fighting LE. It may be too much, but I definitely considered the ramifications. I think the main result will be a smaller Ki Pool for characters using this archetype.

Sworn to the Everbloom: Really straight forward, but I agonized over the name. I was trying to capture a lot of different ideas (Courts are for Kings: in the monk's head Milani is sovereign; Oathbreakers Die: these chaotic characters take few oaths, so this one oath to the Everbloom is that much more meaningful). The basic premise being that as long as a bit of Milani's power resides in them, the monks cannot be swayed through enchantment.

True Freedom: This is actually referencing the 9th level spell Freedom. All the spells listed are copied from that. Freedom is one time removal, but this provides it constantly. Also, the travel through magic effects second half means that no matter how far a tyrant buries himself behind wards and barriers, the revolution can reach him.

Let me know if you have any questions now that I can answer them!

Star Voter Season 6

Matthew Duval wrote:
Ki Pool: ... It may be too much ...

You've missed the point everybody's trying to make here. The problem is that you didn't go far enough and made a mechanically interesting, but ultimately very hard-to-play archetype by putting the last nail in the coffin. A standard monk already needs points in four of their primary stats to function - your change causes them to require five. It may have been possible to simply switch Wisdom for Charisma throughout with a somewhat lower word-count, which would have been an even stronger entry overall.

EDIT: That said, I still voted for this one, but it was a very near miss. Going forward, if indeed you go forward, these kinds of oversight can really hurt you based on what I've seen of past contests.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9 aka Matt Duval

Chris Kenney wrote:
Matthew Duval wrote:
Ki Pool: ... It may be too much ...
You've missed the point everybody's trying to make here. The problem is that you didn't go far enough and made a mechanically interesting, but ultimately very hard-to-play archetype by putting the last nail in the coffin. A standard monk already needs points in four of their primary stats to function - your change causes them to require five. It may have been possible to simply switch Wisdom for Charisma throughout with a somewhat lower word-count, which would have been an even stronger entry overall.

When I say " it may be too much" I mean more the loss of power that comes from needing an additional ability score, not the scope of the change itself. :)

My goal was to be thematically appropriate while losing some power in exchange for the flexibility of an additional aligned weapon attack. The community response seems to be that it's too much of a tradeoff, so yes, some other compensation might have been in order, whether by switching the other abilities to key off CHA or simply raising the base Ki Pool.


But you don't need to justify chaotic monks, because Kwai Chang Caine. And when clerics cast spells, they're still channeling divine energy -- but in a focused way, instead of a reckless, uncontrolled burst. And amazingly, even the most chaotic clerics can still cast spells; why, it's almost as if moral alignment doesn't have anything to do with self-discipline...

The ways that monks use ki are more specific than just "raw healing in a radius" or "raw damage in a radius", so I disagree with your implied assumption that Channel Energy is a more comparable class feature than Spells. At the very least, you could've made a good argument for still using Wis -- if anyone even objected! -- and just ducked the whole "greater MADness" problem.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 32 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9 aka Matt Duval

Fredrik wrote:

But you don't need to justify chaotic monks, because Kwai Chang Caine. And when clerics cast spells, they're still channeling divine energy -- but in a focused way, instead of a reckless, uncontrolled burst. And amazingly, even the most chaotic clerics can still cast spells; why, it's almost as if moral alignment doesn't have anything to do with self-discipline...

The ways that monks use ki are more specific than just "raw healing in a radius" or "raw damage in a radius", so I disagree with your implied assumption that Channel Energy is a more comparable class feature than Spells. At the very least, you could've made a good argument for still using Wis -- if anyone even objected! -- and just ducked the whole "greater MADness" problem.

Hmm.. I'm not sure I'd agree Caine is Chaotic. The monastery he trained in at least had a very strong focus on code and behavior. He does act spontaneously to avenge his master's death and his wandering lifestyle is chaotic, but he seems like more of a lawful character unjustly cast out. I haven't seen either show or the movie in a while though, so my memory is a bit vague. I certainly agree he is awesome :)

I would say that, given the judges' strong reactions to the idea of a chaotic monk, you do need to justify it, if at least in descriptive text. The governing understanding for pathfinder is that monk discipline = lawful, so, while you can disagree with that, you need to make a strong argument if you're going to persuade whoever you're presenting to.

My main thinking with the channel energy was that was the raw channeling of divine power. From my perspective ki fits that model better than the prepared divine energy of spellcasting. (I just gave myself a headache thinking about prepared ki uses. I know that's not what you're suggesting; it's just a really painful idea!)

I really appreciate the discussion and differing viewpoints, by the way. It's incredibly helpful to get outside my own head and see how other people interpret this stuff.

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 9 aka Matt Duval

Thank you very much everyone for your support! I'm so happy right now, and so grateful people liked this idea enough to vote for it. I hope I can do even better in the next round.

Star Voter Season 6

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Hmm...in the end, I think the disconnect here is that there are two problems:

1) Know your audience. The Paizo community, ultimately the group that decides this, has basically conceded that the Monk is decidedly on the weak side even of the martial characters. While one of the problems is definitely overcoming DR, MAD is perceived as a far nastier one. Ultimately, the problem with DR from alignments is a single cleric/inquisitor spell away, where managing MAD issues needs to be handled right at the character creation step and can fundamentally cripple a character. Making that decision even more untenable than the baseline monk is a very nasty drawback.

2) There's a precedent existing already for ki from charisma, the ninja. The end result is that the choice of which to use feels relatively arbitrary, since there's literally nothing special about the monk's lawful alignment left once that's taken into account. I suppose you could maybe count the fact that monks are allowed to use Wisdom in place of Charisma, backwards as that sounds.


i think it very creative and well though in both skill and class

Star Voter Season 7

I am using this archetype for a NG aasimar character in my games and I love it. I arranged a conversion to use it with the Unchained monk (using the Everyman Games advices in Unchained Monk Archetypes) and I rather like the result. There were very few adjustments required. ^_^
I hope some day to see it made into an official archetype, both for standard and unchained monks.

Community / Forums / Archive / Paizo / RPG Superstar™ / Previous Contests / RPG Superstar™ 2013 / Round 2: Design an archetype / Everbloom Monk (Monk) All Messageboards

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