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It's based on the idea that you are hitting with the "flat of the sword", meaning you are deliberately adjusting your attack to stun, not kill. That is difficult to do.
Because using a tool in a way it wasn't designed for and you weren't trained for is awkward?
I have always seen it as pretty much just improvised weapon. Using a chair as a weapon it was never meant to be? -4. Using a sword in a way it was never meant to be used? -4.
I think if you pick up a chair and try to hit someone with it for nonlethal damage you get -8.
Yes you would... That's not at all what I was talking about. Using something in a way it was not meant for gets you a -4. So the two rules are pretty much one in the same.
Using a chair as a nonlethal weapon just gets you double smacked.
I was just using the fact that both rules are pretty much the same to try and help it make sense to the OP.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Cripes, Saltband. How many of these This Rule Is Dumb/Why Does It Exist threads are you going to make? It's like you're just going through the Core Rulebook and FAQs, finding every single thing that says you can't do X or get a penalty if you do Y, and starting threads about all of them. It's getting to the point of feeling almost like spamming.
EDIT: Okay, three of your threads were essentially on a single topic. So I guess I was a little off. But still.
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I don't see rules questions, just rules complaints.
This is not the "Rule Complaints" forum.
Go to General Discussion for that.
You can find it here.
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Cripes, Saltband. How many of these This Rule Is Dumb/Why Does It Exist threads are you going to make? It's like you're just going through the Core Rulebook and FAQs, finding every single thing that says you can't do X or get a penalty if you do Y, and starting threads about all of them. It's getting to the point of feeling almost like spamming.
EDIT: Okay, three of your threads were essentially on a single topic. So I guess I was a little off. But still.
I never said this was dumb rule. I just wanted clarification on why there was a penalty.
If I'm understanding everyone right....
If you use a weapon to perform a maneuver that is different then the basic design of the weapon you get a penalty.
Is that what everyone is saying?
Non-proficiency. Throwing. Size discrepancy. Improvisation.
There are several examples of penalties for using a weapon "improperly".
Basically what they said is correct. In the case of using a bladed (or pointed) weapon, for example, a Longsword, all you have is the blade, the hilt, the grip, and the pommel. The blade is pointy and sharp and because of this, its ability to cut and poke is quick and efficient, but it is still a four-sided shape in terms of geometry; there is the flat side (also called the Flat Blade) of the blade, but using that side is generally going to take longer, due to the proportion of the weapon. You also have the hilt, though generally it is going to be fairly small (and thusly very difficult to use as a method to attack); the grip you cannot use because...well...your hands are there, and then the pommel, while it may be feasible, is awkward and also a maneuver that requires much motion and effort on the wielder's part to make a strike with it.
Now, being abstract from the type of weapon, you must also consider that when you make an attack with a weapon, you are generally going for the kill; you are not consciously restraining yourself from your attacks (heck, too little restraint and you end up getting a penalty as well due to being wreckless and having little focus on where you strike, i.e. Power Attack), and are using the weapon for its intended purpose; to kill. Using a weapon for something it's not meant for (i.e. knocking them out, like a Sap for example) shows not only in terms of weapon proportions and components, but also the conscious act of trying to knock somebody out (instead of killing them, which is much easier to do in a general scenario) does require the person to utilize time and effort from not using the weapon in its intended purpose, to use the weapon in another, unintended (and ultimately inefficient) manner.
That time and effort used to make a normal swing, is instead subtracted to make a sub-par (and also less lethal) swing, and it works both ways; it applies to the person making the attack, and also the person trying to avoid or protect themselves from the attack; they have more time to avoid the attack altogether (simulating a -2), and have to contribute less effort to defend from the attack (simulating another -2), making it that much more difficult for the attack to succeed (comprising the -4 penalty total).
I hope from a realistic physics standpoint, that this makes sense to you.
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Now, being abstract from the type of weapon, you must also consider that when you make an attack with a weapon, you are generally going for the kill; you are not consciously restraining yourself from your attacks (heck, too little restraint and you end up getting a penalty as well due to being wreckless and having little focus on where you strike, i.e. Power Attack), and are using the weapon for its intended purpose; to kill. Using a weapon for something it's not meant for (i.e. knocking them out, like a Sap for example) shows not only in terms of weapon proportions and components, but also the conscious act of trying to knock somebody out (instead of killing them, which is much easier to do in a general scenario) does require the person to utilize time and effort from not using the weapon in its intended purpose, to use the weapon in another, unintended (and ultimately inefficient) manner.That time and effort used to make a normal swing, is instead subtracted to make a sub-par (and also less lethal) swing, and it works both ways; it applies to the person making the attack, and also the person trying to avoid or protect themselves from the attack; they have more time to avoid the attack altogether (simulating a -2), and have to contribute less effort to defend from the attack (simulating another -2), making it that much more difficult for the attack to succeed (comprising the -4 penalty total).
I hope from a realistic physics standpoint, that this makes sense to you.
Yes this all makes since to me....
Now apply what you just said to the updated rules on trip maneuvers!!
I was expecting this to occur.
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Now, being abstract from the type of weapon, you must also consider that when you make an attack with a weapon, you are generally going for the kill; you are not consciously restraining yourself from your attacks (heck, too little restraint and you end up getting a penalty as well due to being wreckless and having little focus on where you strike, i.e. Power Attack), and are using the weapon for its intended purpose; to kill. Using a weapon for something it's not meant for (i.e. knocking them out, like a Sap for example) shows not only in terms of weapon proportions and components, but also the conscious act of trying to knock somebody out (instead of killing them, which is much easier to do in a general scenario) does require the person to utilize time and effort from not using the weapon in its intended purpose, to use the weapon in another, unintended (and ultimately inefficient) manner.That time and effort used to make a normal swing, is instead subtracted to make a sub-par (and also less lethal) swing, and it works both ways; it applies to the person making the attack, and also the person trying to avoid or protect themselves from the attack; they have more time to avoid the attack altogether (simulating a -2), and have to contribute less effort to defend from the attack (simulating another -2), making it that much more difficult for the attack to succeed (comprising the -4 penalty total).
I hope from a realistic physics standpoint, that this makes sense to you.
Yes this all makes since to me....
Now apply what you just said to the updated rules on trip maneuvers!!
1) That doesn't make any sense at all.
2) The f%@$ are you even talking about?
2) He's cheesed that the 'trip' weapon property no longer gives a bonus to trip attempts and is attempting to use the Socratic method to make people agree with him
Cripes, Saltband. How many of these This Rule Is Dumb/Why Does It Exist threads are you going to make? It's like you're just going through the Core Rulebook and FAQs, finding every single thing that says you can't do X or get a penalty if you do Y, and starting threads about all of them. It's getting to the point of feeling almost like spamming.
EDIT: Okay, three of your threads were essentially on a single topic. So I guess I was a little off. But still.
I never said this was dumb rule. I just wanted clarification on why there was a penalty.
If I'm understanding everyone right....
If you use a weapon to perform a maneuver that is different then the basic design of the weapon you get a penalty.
Is that what everyone is saying?
No. They are saying that if you want to hit someone with a warhammer using your full force, you need to be carefull to avoid hurting him.
same goes with hitting him with an axe at full force, or charging with a lance and full force, while simultanously trying to avoid getting him killed.
When you use the weapon to trip, you aren't hitting him with full force. Hence you don't be extra careful to avoid hurting him, because you aren't hurting him in the first place.
Cripes, Saltband. How many of these This Rule Is Dumb/Why Does It Exist threads are you going to make? It's like you're just going through the Core Rulebook and FAQs, finding every single thing that says you can't do X or get a penalty if you do Y, and starting threads about all of them. It's getting to the point of feeling almost like spamming.
EDIT: Okay, three of your threads were essentially on a single topic. So I guess I was a little off. But still.
I never said this was dumb rule. I just wanted clarification on why there was a penalty.
If I'm understanding everyone right....
If you use a weapon to perform a maneuver that is different then the basic design of the weapon you get a penalty.
Is that what everyone is saying?
This is the post where I knew this thread was going to twist the topic into applying a -4 to tripping with weapons not "designed to trip."
So, every thread has been on the same topic. Awesome.
Please, seriously, instead of trying to convince people why the updated trip rules are bad, explain why you hate them so much. And I really want the honest, bare truth--what is the real, root reason this bothers you? If I understand it, I can commiserate with you.
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2) He's cheesed that the 'trip' weapon property no longer gives a bonus to trip attempts and is attempting to use the Socratic method to make people agree with him
No I have no problem with people using any weapon to make a trip attempt....I just think that not all weapons should give you full bonuses to such an attempt.
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No. They are saying that if you want to hit someone with a warhammer using your full force, you need to be carefull to avoid hurting him.
same goes with hitting him with an axe at full force, or charging with a lance and full force, while simultanously trying to avoid getting him killed.
When you use the weapon to trip, you aren't hitting him with full force. Hence you don't be extra careful to avoid hurting him, because you aren't hurting him in the first place.
Myself I would have applied a damage penalty as well since your not using yoour weapon to full effect. Your "pulling" your attack so you dont use full stregth.
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2) He's cheesed that the 'trip' weapon property no longer gives a bonus to trip attempts and is attempting to use the Socratic method to make people agree with himNo I have no problem with people using any weapon to make a trip attempt....I just think that not all weapons should give you full bonuses to such an attempt.
The developers disagree with you, as well as a not insignificant number of players.
Deal with it.
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So, every thread has been on the same topic. Awesome.
Please, seriously, instead of trying to convince people why the updated trip rules are bad, explain why you hate them so much. And I really want the honest, bare truth--what is the real, root reason this bothers you? If I understand it, I can commiserate with you.
2 things:
1)This one about half the people agree with me.Weapons with the trip special feature are now a joke.
2)Not all weapon should give full bonuses to trip attempts. Yes I agree more weapons should have been trip weapons but now all weapons are trip weapons. Some weapon are ALOT better for tripping someone even before feats, enhancements, etc.
That is my issue with the updated rules. Now ALL weapons give the same chance of success.
Myself I would have applied a damage penalty as well since your not using yoour weapon to full effect. Your "pulling" your attack so you dont use full stregth.
Fine, when you publish your RPG I'll check it. In Pathfinder/D&D, accuracy is tied to strength, and armor work as a deflection protective device. "pulling" your attack and not ussing full strength translate into not being able to pierce full plates/natural armors, hence the STR bonus to hit, instead of DEX
Besides that, I didn't say you were "pulling your punches". Quite the opposite. If you were pulling your punches, you'll do lethal damage, but no str modifier for example. You are using FULL FORCE to incapacitate your foe. You are hitting him with your axe, using the maximimun of your brute strength (and 1.5x bonus if two handed). That's why you need a -4 to hit. glancing someone with a battle axe, without harming him, is easy. Launching a devastating blow with the maximum of your strength against someone with a battle axe, *and simultanously trying not to injure him* is quite difficult. Therefore, -4 to hit.
That is my issue with the updated rules. Now ALL weapons give the same chance of success.
Do you have any experience with melee weapons? The reason why all of them work well when tripping, is because you don't trip with them. You use your weapon to check and counter opponent weapon, then you use your body (specially your legs) to do the trip.
Like this:
training sword
big trip
Full plate training
EDIT: check the second one. Why wouldn't you be able to do that technique while holding a mace, hammer, pick or axe instead of a sword?
2 things:
1)This one about half the people agree with me.
Weapons with the trip special feature are now a joke.2)Not all weapon should give full bonuses to trip attempts. Yes I agree more weapons should have been trip weapons but now all weapons are trip weapons. Some weapon are ALOT better for tripping someone even before feats, enhancements, etc.
That is my issue with the updated rules. Now ALL weapons give the same chance of success.
No, that's what you are upset about, not why you are upset about it. Why are you bothered by this? Self-examine and cut to the core of the issue.
You don't like that all weapons give the same chance of success when tripping. Why does it bother you enough to start at least three threads about it?
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That is my issue with the updated rules. Now ALL weapons give the same chance of success.
Do you have any experience with melee weapons? The reason why all of them work well when tripping, is because you don't trip with them. You use your weapon to check and counter opponent weapon, then you use your body (specially your legs) to do the trip.
Like this:
training sword
big trip
Full plate trainingEDIT: check the second one. Why wouldn't you be able to do that technique while holding a mace, hammer, pick or axe instead of a sword?
That is called an unarmed strike. How do you get all enhancement bonuses from said weapon to add to your trip attack? You said yourself your not using the weapon.
That is called an unarmed strike. How do you get all enhancement bonuses from said weapon to add to your trip attack? You said yourself your not using the weapon.That is my issue with the updated rules. Now ALL weapons give the same chance of success.
Do you have any experience with melee weapons? The reason why all of them work well when tripping, is because you don't trip with them. You use your weapon to check and counter opponent weapon, then you use your body (specially your legs) to do the trip.
Like this:
training sword
big trip
Full plate trainingEDIT: check the second one. Why wouldn't you be able to do that technique while holding a mace, hammer, pick or axe instead of a sword?
Those techniques came in a fencing book from germany in XVI century. And you add your enhancement bonus because, as i said, you USE your weapon to check and counter your opponent weapon, then use your body to do the trip.
If you check the third video, the one in full plate, you'll notice how they use the sword to lever in the wrists and trip. It's not much different from using the haft of the halberd like this:Which weapons exactly do you feel they shouldn't be used to trip?
In my opinion this thread violates this rule:
The most important rule: Don't be a jerk. We want our messageboards to be a fun and friendly place.
I don't think it's gotten to that point, but I do think that the question has been sufficiently answered.
Which weapons exactly do you feel they shouldn't be used to trip?
I believe not all weapons are equal.
Should you be able to trip someone with a dagger as easily as with a halbard or quarterstaff?
You can do something similar to this with a dagger:
tripYou keep thinking that when you trip with the halberd, you actually do it *with the halberd*. In most cases, you don't.
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Which weapons exactly do you feel they shouldn't be used to trip?
I believe not all weapons are equal.
Should you be able to trip someone with a dagger as easily as with a halbard or quarterstaff?
You can do something similar to this with a dagger:
tripYou keep thinking that when you trip with the halberd, you actually do it *with the halberd*. In most cases, you don't.
Now show me a video of a dagger vs a halbard.
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And you add your enhancement bonus because, as i said, you USE your weapon to check and counter your opponent weapon, then use your body to do the trip.
Following your example here then the person weilding 2 weapons should get the bonuses for both weapons or the person with a shield should get the shield enhancement bonuses as well, because as you said they are using these items to check and counter the opponents weapon.
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Which weapons exactly do you feel they shouldn't be used to trip?
I believe not all weapons are equal.
Should you be able to trip someone with a dagger as easily as with a halbard or quarterstaff?
Good thing you're not in charge of development over at Paizo, then.
The answer hasn't changed: Houserule it if you don't like it, they're not going to change the rules for everybody just because you've got such a rod in your rear that you need to make stealth posts about something you dislike.
Following your example here then the person weilding 2 weapons should get the bonuses for both weapons or the person with a shield should get the shield enhancement bonuses as well, because as you said they are using these items to check and counter the opponents weapon.
And you add your enhancement bonus because, as i said, you USE your weapon to check and counter your opponent weapon, then use your body to do the trip.
Tryibg to make strawman fallacies ussually end like this, with absurd comments.
The answer is no. For the same reasons you don't get both enhancement bonus when you try to disarm a weapon while dual wielding. If you want a rules reason, it's because bonuses with the same name dont stack.
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Should you be able to hit someone with a dagger as easily as with a halbard or quarterstaff? Heck, if you touch a bayonet to the end of your crossbow, you are just as likely to hit with it as if you were using a dagger or quarterstaff.Pathfinder isn't hyper realistic. Particularly when it comes to attack rolls. They homogenize everything as much as possible.
Yes I know what your saying here.
Armor Class is just a target number and for the most part doesnt matter what type of armor your actually wear (adamantined full plate as an exception and even then its not harder to hit just has a DR).And weapons themselves arent portrayed well. Great Axe and Great Sword were designed specifically to get through heavy armor but none of that is taken into account, you dont get bonuses to hit against heavy armor with weapons like these.
Its hard to cover everything with rules and make them work well and not have the rules be to combersome.
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So this makes the fourth thread Jacob Saltband has started specifically to complain about the trip weapon rules. I wish there were ways to flag things like this, instead of just flagging individual posts. Seriously, quit wasting everyone's time.
Why? This is how the rules got updated in the first place, people constantly complaining about not being able to trip with a twig picked up off the forest floor.
Now show me a video of a dagger vs a halbard.
Which weapons exactly do you feel they shouldn't be used to trip?
I believe not all weapons are equal.
Should you be able to trip someone with a dagger as easily as with a halbard or quarterstaff?
You can do something similar to this with a dagger:
tripYou keep thinking that when you trip with the halberd, you actually do it *with the halberd*. In most cases, you don't.
So if I don't find a video of someone tripping some other with a dagger vs halberd fight, it means it can't be done?
Show me a video of someone triping someother with a Halberd vs a dual wielder of falcata and light mace, or otherwise Halberdier can't trip falcata and light mace dual wielders.
Did you see how inane that request is?
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gustavo iglesias wrote:
you USE your weapon to check and counter your opponent weapon, then use your body to do the trip.
In games terms what you describe here is called defensive fighting, you get a -4 to attack and +2 to AC using your weapon this way.
Also the armor video in games term would have been a grapple, arm lock and take down.
I'm going to stop harping on this since everyone agrees that waving your weapon in the general direction of your opponent grants full feat and enhancement bonuses from said weapon. By Gustavo Iglesias's example weapon are never actually used to trip anybody so you can only get weapon bonuses this way.
-4 strikes me as a bit too much. I'd prefer it wasn't on a penalty, but if you get a natural 1 trying to do subdual you break your weapon, swinging with the flat/trying to bash with the haft you only break it.
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Also the armor video in games term would have been a grapple, arm lock and take down.
Then, by D&D rules, it's made at -4, for grappling without two free hands.
Also, if you don't consider those videos as tripping with a weapon, then tripping with a weapon do not exist in real life.
I'm going to stop harping on this since everyone agrees that waving your weapon in the general direction of your opponent grants full feat and enhancement bonuses from said weapon. By Gustavo Iglesias's example weapon are never actually used to trip anybody so you can only get weapon bonuses this way.
Do you have any real experience with weapons? Have you trained with them, or seeing a real master using one? Have you seen some weapon fight, outside of holliwood films? Did you see the fighters using the weapon to trip?
Do you know what's stupid? The old rule that gave +2 to trip with a khopesh. It supposed that you hit the guy in the leg with the sword, hook it, and trip. If you hit the leg with the sword, sure he falls prone him. Because you cut his leg, not because you trip him. And it doesn't really matter if it was a khopesh, you could hit him with an axe, a meat cleaver, or a chain saw, and he would fall prone too. That's not "a trip", that's cutting the leg's muscles and sinew. If you cut his head he falls prone too. But that wouldn't qualify as "trip"
These are real world trips, from real world fencing techniques in a real world XV century swordfighting book:
One
Two
Three
Four
Five
Six
Seven
I don't know how many examples do you need. I can get more if you want.