Goblin Squad Member
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from my understanding, settlements are supposed to be a key part of the game, not an exception for the huge uber-groups. I think it is that many of us are used to MMO's in which 10 or less superpowers actually own holdings, and if you aren't one of those superpowers, you won't get one.
I believe goblinworks is specifically trying to prevent this, via things like, each added hex to a kingdom, raises the costs of keeping it exponentially, as well as rapidly expanding the size of the world. Actually founding a small basic settlement shouldn't be of much difficulty for a group of 30.
Bandits are the one example I could see issues with, (namely due to them having significantly more enemies than others) though I also see bandits wanting groups larger than 20 as likely to be an exception rather than commonplace.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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The game is about territorial control. Settlements control territory. So we want to channel players into Settlements. There's no defined cap for Chartered Companies at this stage, we'll figure out the optimal size via Crowdforging. But you should expect that you'll be more concerned with your Settlement choice than your Company choice.
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Goblin Squad Member
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....There's no defined cap for Chartered Companies at this stage, we'll figure out the optimal size via Crowdforging. ....
Thanks Ryan, I think that addresses most people's concerns for the moment.
I take from the posts on this thread that there seems to be a ground swell for unlimited CC size. If people don't want to utilise that and if it is of no use that is still not a reason to limit the size of a CC IMO.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I think people really need sit back and think of how everything in the game fits together. PFO is a big change from your normal MMO, and nothing Ryan has said leads me to believe he wants this to be a normal MMO, and I think the magnitude of information is too much for some people.
The focus of PFO is not the company, it is the settlement. If companies are too large, the need for a settlement plummets. Bottom line, if you want to be a successful and profitable group, you need a settlement behind you.
A company shouldn't be large, it should be a smaller group. A single CC shouldn't be able to do anything 'large scale'. A cc should be a tight group of people with a similar interest. What most people consider a 'guild' should be thought of as a settlement. There will have to be a hard cap, and we need to accept that everyone won't be satisfied, there will always be a group that wants just one more slot.
This will make things a little difficult before settlements are rolled out, but dealing with this is an important quality that every EE player should have.
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Goblin Squad Member
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@ Being
So they will force people who play together in other games in bigger clans (all games I played had at least room for 40 members per clan) to play separated? Lets say we have 24 friends coming to play PFO we leave out 4 of our friends and say "sorry bro, we got no more room for you, go find another CC" or are forced to create 2 CCs with 12 members each? Why?
And from a perspective of role-playing what would prevent a chartered company to have more than 20 members in pathfinder universe?
I see no reasonable reason for that.
There are good tactical reasons to articulate your forces into small units, each led by a different leader with each of those subgroups coordinated by a force commander.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game is about territorial control. Settlements control territory. So we want to channel players into Settlements. There's no defined cap for Chartered Companies at this stage, we'll figure out the optimal size via Crowdforging. But you should expect that you'll be more concerned with your Settlement choice than your Company choice.
In glad to hear that there is no number art in stone yet. But I can't help to point out that this misunderstanding should have been anticipated.
If is clear from everyone's threads "Chartered Company... " that we were all operating under the impression that CCs are traditional MMO guilds, and not smaller raid / fleet groups.
The problem is not organizing ourselves into small raid groups or CCs as you want to call them. The problem is securing the names for them.
For Example:
Will I now have to create The UnNamed Company One, Unc Two and UNC Three?
It would seem to me an easier system would be to have:
Cc = Named Guild
Raid Group = division of Guild, unnamed
Settlement = Two or more CCs in Alliance
Kingdom = Two or more alliances
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Goblin Squad Member
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The game is about territorial control. Settlements control territory. So we want to channel players into Settlements. There's no defined cap for Chartered Companies at this stage, we'll figure out the optimal size via Crowdforging. But you should expect that you'll be more concerned with your Settlement choice than your Company choice.In glad to hear that there is no number art in stone yet. But I can't help to point out that this misunderstanding should have been anticipated.
If is clear from everyone's threads "Chartered Company... " that we were all operating under the impression that CCs are traditional MMO guilds, and not smaller raid / fleet groups.
The problem is not organizing ourselves into small raid groups or CCs as you want to call them. The problem is securing the names for them.
For Example:
Will I now have to create The UnNamed Company One, Unc Two and UNC Three?
It would seem to me an easier system would be to have:
Cc = Named Guild
Raid Group = division of Guild, unnamed
Settlement = Two or more CCs in Alliance
Kingdom = Two or more alliances
I don't see that as 'easier' per se, so much as 'what we are accustomed to'.
It makes more sense to me to organized on military models.
Say a company is composed of three platoons, where a platoon is composed of three squads. A squad is eight characters, so a full platoon is 24 with a full company at 72.
Or add a 'heavy' squad to each platoon for 32 and a command platoon to each company for 104.
Move up to an alliance of three companies and gain two light infantry platoons for the flanks and a platoon for reserves.
Move up to a kingdom to gain cavalry and ranks of archers.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It makes more sense to me to organized on military models.Say a company is composed of three platoons, where a platoon is composed of three squads. A squad is eight characters, so a full platoon is 24 with a full company at 72.
Or add a 'heavy' squad to each platoon for 32 and a command platoon to each company for 104.
Move up to an alliance of three companies and gain two light infantry platoons for the flanks and a platoon for reserves.
Move up to a kingdom to gain cavalry and ranks of archers.
We can quibble over numbers, for instance, my platoon had 60 soldiers and 5 squads. My company was over 100, if broken down, probably two platoons. But, it was an HHC, so that is not "fielded" the same way as a rifle platoon would be.
However, we are in general agreement, Company size should be over 20!! and probably over 50.
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Goblin Squad Member
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It would seem to me an easier system would be to have:Cc = Named Guild
Raid Group = division of Guild, unnamed
Settlement = Two or more CCs in Alliance
Kingdom = Two or more alliances
I believe the intention is that any group worth anything, is expected to own territory, as territory management is going to be the bread and butter of the game. I think you are thinking of territory as something a large group might want to pursue, but I believe GW's intention is that territory is why the organizations form at all.
CC's pre-settlement are just a placeholder for people to work together in building a settlement, afterwords they morph into a subgroup of a settlement, but the primary key is, the world revolves around settlements, training, crafting etc... all revolves around what sort of settlement you currently belong to.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I believe the intention is that any group worth anything, is expected to own territory, as territory management is going to be the bread and butter of the game. I think you are thinking of territory as something a large group might want to pursue, but I believe GW's intention is that territory is why the organizations form at all.
CC's pre-settlement are just a placeholder for people to work together in building a settlement, afterwords they morph into a subgroup of a settlement, but the primary key is, the world revolves around settlements, training, crafting etc... all revolves around what sort of settlement you currently belong to.
This is how I am understanding the vision, and I concur with it.
May if they "upgrade" hideouts to a status of "mini-settlement" so you could allow more than one CC in each hideout and a single name to this "hideout linked organization" it could solve the problem?
Mini-settlements sound like an interesting idea. They'd be a good way around the CC cap.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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If is clear from everyone's threads "Chartered Company... " that we were all operating under the impression that CCs are traditional MMO guilds, and not smaller raid / fleet groups.
I can only repeat myself as many times as necessary. Dispelling conclusions jumped to in error is a part of my job.
RyanD
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Goblin Squad Member
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If is clear from everyone's threads "Chartered Company... " that we were all operating under the impression that CCs are traditional MMO guilds, and not smaller raid / fleet groups.I can only repeat myself as many times as necessary. Dispelling conclusions jumped to in error is a part of my job.
RyanD
It wasn't jumped to in error. I'm digging for the post, but one of the GW devs or Vic posted the number 24 as a ballpark sometime last fall. Nihimon may have a better idea of the post I'm thinking of, because I know he used that number in a post or two sometime after. I know that's not the case now, but this isn't like the pvp in the wild dispute were we as a community came to a conclusion and thought it was fact.
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Goblin Squad Member
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When we all jumped to the conclusion that Chartered Companies would be just like the Guilds we were used to in other games, we definitely did so in error, and despite Ryan's very clear statement that they would be limited in size.
From LFG! (Looking for Group!):
Chartered companies are the first persistent social organization most players will join in the game. They can grow to be quite large, on the order of several dozen characters (exact sizes have yet to be determined).
That blog post was before any of our guilds were announced, and was in fact the impetus for most of the earliest folks to announce their guilds. Yes, we all ignored the part about the size being limited to "several dozen". No, that's not Ryan's fault.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I still have some questions unanswered. Please point me to the link if I have missed an answer.
1) Where does the "guild" fit within the company/settlement/kingdom structure?
1a) Will the Kickstarter Guild level pledge be a structure like an inn?
1b) Can guilds be expanded to watchtowers, forts or settlements?
2) If a hex will be subdivided into 7 subhexes, will we be able to have forts/small settlement (or as @LordDaeron suggested mini-settlements) in each sub-hex?
3) There will be hideouts, watchtowers and forts as persistent structures, will they be limited to 1 per sub-hex?
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Goblin Squad Member
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1) Where does the "guild" fit within the company/settlement/kingdom structure?
1a) Will the Kickstarter Guild level pledge be a structure like an inn?
1b) Can guilds be expanded to watchtowers, forts or settlements?
2) If a hex will be subdivided into 7 subhexes, will we be able to have forts/small settlement (or as @LordDaeron suggested mini-settlements) in each sub-hex?
3) There will be hideouts, watchtowers and forts as persistent structures, will they be limited to 1 per sub-hex?
1. There's not a single post with a direct quote, but if you start reading Goblinworks Blog: Put It in Writing, at the linked post, it should start making sense. In essence, there is no in-game organization that can truly map to what we think of as "Guilds". Although "many" guilds will easily fit inside a single Chartered Company, Settlement or Player Nation, there will be a number of others that don't neatly fit into any of these structures.
1a. I'm not aware of any in-game structure associated with the Crowdforger Guild pledge. It's possible that the Guild Starter Pack will include something like this, but I haven't read anything indicating it would.
1b. See 1a. I don't think there will be a structure to upgrade.
2 & 3. Good questions. They said they were subdividing each hex in order to create "intermediate points of control". I don't know for sure, but I expect there will only be 1 Fort or Settlement in a Hex Cluster, but it sure makes a lot of sense for each of the sub-hexes to have a Watch Tower. I'm very curious about this as well.
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CEO, Goblinworks
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1) Where does the "guild" fit within the company/settlement/kingdom structure?
It depends on what you mean by "Guild'.
If you mean a group of several dozen PCs that adventure together, it's a Chartered Company.
If you mean a group of more than several dozen PCs that takes and holds territory, it's a Settlement.
1a) Will the Kickstarter Guild level pledge be a structure like an inn?
You don't get a structure for a Guild level pledge. You get a structure if you are high enough on the Guild Leaderboard to draft for early control of territory.
The structure you get will be a simple thing like a hall. It's just a placeholder so that there's some kind of object in the game world before we build out more structures and Settlement components.
1b) Can guilds be expanded to watchtowers, forts or settlements?
A guild is not a building.
A Chartered Company may be able to own those structures, or they may be owned by Settlements; we're unclear yet on which option will go into the game.
2) If a hex will be subdivided into 7 subhexes, will we be able to have forts/small settlement (or as @LordDaeron suggested mini-settlements) in each sub-hex?
As currently envisioned the largest structures that will be buildable outside a Settlement hex are Watchtowers and Inns. Neither has the effect on character abilities that Settlement do.
3) There will be hideouts, watchtowers and forts as persistent structures, will they be limited to 1 per sub-hex?
Yes, although hideouts are still very protean and subject to a lot of design work.
Oooooohh well that's very interesting. If the hexes are broken down like that, and we can have a watchtower (subject to change) in each sub-hex, tactically that will be great. Now I'm wondering at the terrain that our hex is made up of. :p